Dazzle Novak said:
In other words, in your eyes, there's no such thing as inference, implication, and context. For example, what point is there to JonTron asserting that wealthy blacks commit more crime than poor whites if not to draw a clear conclusion about black people? This is what's so infuriating sometimes. The people taking these "bold and controversial" stances refuse to follow their talking point to the next step while in polite circles, yet take umbrage if someone else uses their powers of deduction to explain where it was leading to.
A lot of you can ascribe to JonTron various disparaging, undesirable traits such as stupidity, but suggest part of the source of that ignorance may be rooted in racial animus and/or discomfort toward "the other" and all of a sudden you lot become pedants requiring the most etymologically-rooted dictionary definition possible.
The African American community
does commit more crime then other communities in the United States. Just like caucasian americans commit more crimes then individuals from various asian nations. Those are just statistics. Furthermore, arrests are proportional to the percentages of violent crimes committed. Those are simply the facts and data. How you feel about it is irrelevant. What matters is what this data actually means. Obviously race and genetics don't predispose you to committing crime. That would be ridiculous, and anyone who makes that claim actually is racist. However, it does raise the question about what this data means. One argument is that there exists systemic racism. That african americans are arrested as a result of bias in the law enforcement and judicial system. I think there is likely truth to this, but it does not explain disparities o its own. Another argument is that poverty is more likely to result in crime, and that since certain minorities don't enjoy the wealth and power of many caucasian americans, this results in disproportionate crime rates. I think there is likely some truth to this as well, but it does not explain why african american communities still commit disproportionate crime even independent of their financial success when compared to their peers across racial lines. Part of this may be systemic racism, but it can't account for the total disparity. The final argument would be an argument of sub cultures that have developed in the united states. Essentially, that certain cultures develop that encourage an increase in crime rates. This
can be the result of racial differences in a society if schisms are formed. I think there's some truth to this as well, but again, it can't account for the total disparity. I think its a combination of all of the above. I think Jon Trons facts were wrong, but given his prior conversation with Sargon, this appears to be what he was trying to articulate.
Even describing Japan simply as "Asian" is facile. Indians (from India) and Middle-Easterners certainly aren't considered "Asian" in the same sense as the Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans. And even amongst that latter group, they view themselves as being diametrically opposed culturally and historically.
Whiteness seems to be even more muddy and conditional, accepting any number of ethnic Jews, certain Arabs, and vaguely-white swarthy Europeans (Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians, etc.) when it's convenient to do so. That condition, by the way, is often being able to take collective praise for historical accomplishments. Never mind the often-cited exclusion of the Irish until recently.
I agree, Jons position was without nuance, especially when speaking about America, which is a true melting pot.
"Culture" is a dog-whistle in this context. When describing the threat of Islam, for example, people aren't picturing White-passing Bosnians, Muslims from any number of Slavik countries, or converts.
It's merely implicitly racist, though, so better not use the R-word, guys! JonTron implying black people, even when given money and opportunity, are predisposed to crime or that whiteness is a better determination of "American-ness" than being born in America isn't what's offensive or the serious accusation.
Culture is what Jon was talking about, though. African Americans
do commit more crimes then their peers across all racial demographic lines. Those are the facts, regardless of how politically correct you feel they are. Again, that's not caused by race itself, but it is probably the result of the things I listed above.
I also don't remember him saying "whiteness" determines "american-ness." What he said is that white americans have a right to be concerned about the fact that they are becoming a smaller demographic since they are less able to pursue their own self interest politically. Personally, I couldn't care less about this issue. But he
is correct. Every group in america is concerned about their political makeup and power in america. Do you think this is unique to some caucasian americans? Many african american groups are unhappy to go from roughly 12 to 7 percent of the population, since it impairs their ability to seek their own self interest. It's power politics. Its dumb, but its there. Any group, across any line, wants more of a voice in politics. Any demographic shift that takes that away is going to make that group uncomfortable. This is simply acknowledging human nature.
It does. Are you implying that different ethnicities and nationalities don't often have unique sub cultures? I thought this was common knowledge. Sometimes those cultures even influence the larger culture. I fail to see how this is even controversial.
White isn't a nationality or even a strict ethnicity. How does one even begin to discuss "white culture" living in a melting pot? "Black", as used in the U.S., isn't an ideal designation, but a placeholder identity due to the disconnect caused by slavery. It's the cultural equivalent of "John Doe".
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Its not perfect, but to pretend that these dividing lines don't exist within culture is frankly silly. African Americans living in today's society don't identify by whatever nation their ancestors were taken from. They identify as African American.
If I can be blunt, what your mealy-mouthing appears to essentially amount to is, "I kind of agree with him and/or share his sentiments, but am also aware of how it comes across negatively. It'd serve me to raise the threshold of what's deemed racist lest some self-reflection be required on my part."
And here we are. It always comes down to this in the end, doesn't it? I'm a racist.
Which is funny, because I actually disagree with Jon on most of his points. I think he was wrong, and I mostly agreed with the other guy. Jon clearly lost the debate. But I don't think Jon Tron is a racist, so I'm racist I guess. At least your not quick to jump to conclusions.
