So! Avengers: Endgame

[Saelune]

Marketing towards progress is a good thing. Marketing isn't going away, it could atleast be used for good rather than evil. You can pretend marketing is your excuse, but I doubt it.

You know, at this point I'm going to indulge myself a bit of a tangent. Your words here remind me of the shit I said 20-25 years ago when, as a high school I did the state legislature page circuit, volunteered for my local Democratic party, did all the glad-handing and canvassing, wrote the local papers, help fund raise, spoke out for issues I believed in at the time, and more.

To paraphrase my younger self, "globalizing towards progress is a good thing. Globalization isn't going away, it could at least be used for good rather than evil. You can pretend trade protectionism is your excuse, but I doubt it."

Then I got into college and was expected to be a big boy, and read for myself what "our guys" down south (like Pinochet) had really been up to for the past few decades, the ongoing pernicious effect NAFTA had on the Mexican and American economies and the circumstances behind its passing, the actual impact of Washington consensus policies on post-Soviet economies, and the realities of multi-national business ethics abroad. But most importantly, how all of that bore no semblance to "reality" as it was presented to Americans by our own media, to make us all feel good and righteous about American economic and military hegemony, how justified America is in playing world police, and how America and American corporations are proudly blazing the path to global capitalist utopia, regardless of outlet or those outlets' inherent biases.

To say that if I had the opportunity to go back in time and ***** slap some reality into my teenage self, I would, is the understatement of the century.

No, "marketing towards progress" is not a good thing, because your idea of "progress" is not corporations' idea of "progress". No, marketing is unlikely to go away, but it will never, ever be a force for good. You're only being tricked into thinking it can be.

It is the only reason anyone ever gave a fuck about Trump until he decided to go full White Supremacist.

Five billion dollars.

That's the amount of earned media that went to Trump during the 2016 election, counting primary and general. Depending on source, $5.6-5.9 billion if you go all the way back to June, 2015, when he first announced his bid.

Earned media is defined as the reporting, editorializing, and discussion of a given topic (in this case, Trump's candidacy), separate from sponsored/paid media in the form of direct advertisement. A talking head goes on TV and yells about Trump for ten minutes, that's earned media. Here's the key: earned media is quantified by estimating the value of ad buys during coverage of said topic, in other words it's an index of said topic's profitability, as it's how much income an outlet made covering it.

For 2016, Hillary received approximately $3.4 billion in earned media. That's about $8.4-9.4 billion total. Compared to the estimated $2.4 billion of hard and soft money, and independent expenditure, of 2016 for both candidates put together. To put that in perspective, 2012 was a $4 billion election, with about a 50/50 split in paid/earned media.

To say the amount of earned media Trump received was staggeringly unprecedented is the understatement of the decade. So unprecedented one cannot help but ask themselves, what led to this? The most straightforward answer is damning enough: Trump shot his mouth off, news outlets covered it, ratings and ad revenue went through the fuckin' roof, so news outlets just kept giving the people what they obviously wanted--a reality television show where the grand prize is access to the nuclear football--and laughed all the way to the bank. Just like they still are.

But, the truth's actually a little deeper than that. As our current media landscape stands, the last I checked, four multi-nationals control over 90% of media consumed by Americans: Disney, AT&T, National Amusements/Viacom, and Comcast. The Disney/Fox merger went through, relegating NewsCorp to also-ran status, and the AT&T/Time Warner merger went through. You might talk about the FANG's, but the truth is when it comes to big media, despite FANG's considerable size and reach, they're very tiny fish in a massive ocean. Three years ago (i.e. before the election) it was six.

Of course, we still have the handful of "old media" holdouts which nowadays are tech billionaires' vanity projects. So, here's the real funny thing. You just made an entire thread about access restrictions by the Trump administration...whose access is being limited? Are outlets owned by those four MNC's being targeted?

So who were the biggest beneficiaries of Trump admin deregulation and tax "reform"? The same people who put him in office on the back of five billion dollars' worth of earned media, that's who. You want to talk about fascism, there's your fucking fascism.

But please, do go on talking about how progressive Disney and its subsidiaries are.

And how does this make female Superheroes a bad thing? I know you're trying to confuse me, but that was the topic.

 

[Marik2]

But Captain America 1 was a jingoistic, self-righteous, pompous propaganda machine that is like watching Trump speak. Feels over reals. The worst part is that my daughter is getting old enough to start seeing these movies, and I'm going to have to watch that turd burger again soon. I'm not looking forward to it.

As someone who likes to take potshots against murica and western civilization, that is the dumbest description of the first captain america movie. They specifically made the movie to not offend the global audience, because everyone hates America. That's why Cap doesn't fight actual Nazis, the swastika isn't featured(only for a second), and he doesn't fight in actual historical places.

 

[Hawki]

Aw c'mon, you gotta enjoy some surface level symbolism like that! Like how the Gauntlet the Avengers make is a right-handed one to deliberately counter Thanos' left-handed or 'sinister' Gauntlet. These people didn't get English degrees for nothing you know XD

There might be a oneshot idea there actually.

...what? This thread got me to write 3000 words explaining when, how, and why Carol got a haircut between Infinity War and Endgame.

Peggy deserved America's ass

A Brit kissing America's arse.

...political analogy?

 

[Hawki]

For a movie called captain America that featured a 5 minute musical number of him punching Hitler, it was incredibly even handed and fair.

Even handed and fair? What's to be fair about? Hydra are, like, uber-Nazis. They're Nazis that are so evil that the film distinguishes them from Germany and the natural Nazis so they can be slaughtered without any kind of self-reflection. They have laser guns FFS!

Whatever the first Cap movie is (a pile of meh in my case, but whatever), it certainly isn't subtle.

Which is why he had to fight and kill evil science space fascists instead of like....drafted underage scared German teens

Well, yeah, sure, but avoiding controversy is the easy way out.

Not that the film's trying to be in-depth about anything mind you.

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

So, finally seen Avengeancemen: This is the end, and... it was good. A nice conclusion(finally!) to this whole 10 year trip.

It was, as told, chock full of fanservice. But, the kind of fanservice that didn't get obnoxious, and felt... earned? Unlike some other Disney properties(*cough cough* I clapped when i saw Darth Vader *cough cough* Ready Player One).
The amount of comedy and heartstring pulls that did, and didn't land, was about on par with other MCU movies. Although, those that should count, imho, did at least.
Might be thanks to the important stuff not being spoiled to me(some of the fluff still was, like Thor Lebowski), why it left bigger emotional impact than Infinity War. Or maybe it was the silver screen magic?
Or maybe i liked it so much, because after all these movies, this one actually felt like an ending?

PS. I don't care what Feige says about "Far From Home". You don't get to claim that "Oh but it's not the REAL ending", after having THOSE kind of credits.

PPS. To stay in the spirit of these forums: A fistful of nitpicks...
- Did the Yakuza man really had to pull a freakin' katana on Hawkeye? Even for this kind of movie that felt too on the nose.
- The kid playing Stark's daughter: Cute, but can't act.
- The elephant in the room, Captain Marvel. I actually didn't have as many problems with her, as other people. I understand why writers decided to get rid of the tactical nuke, so the rest of our heroes could get a decent farewell... But i think it could be done in better way "I have shit to do on the other side of universe, baiiiiii...".

snip

Hey... But think about it: We gonna have X-Men and DP in the MCU.
That makes things perfectly balanced, right?

 

[Trunkage]

But Captain America 1 was a jingoistic, self-righteous, pompous propaganda machine that is like watching Trump speak. Feels over reals. The worst part is that my daughter is getting old enough to start seeing these movies, and I'm going to have to watch that turd burger again soon. I'm not looking forward to it.

As someone who likes to take potshots against murica and western civilization, that is the dumbest description of the first captain america movie. They specifically made the movie to not offend the global audience, because everyone hates America. That's why Cap doesn't fight actual Nazis, the swastika isn't featured(only for a second), and he doesn't fight in actual historical places.

Its not about being anti-America. I won't care if this was about America, Germany, Russia or Britian. It's patriotism, Trump style (all though many people do this, he's just the most prolific at the moment). Seeing pop songs about Putin or Kim Jong-Un is pretty bad as well, It's indoctrination. It's fanatical. It's believing in something so much you'd die for it, irrelevant of whether it wrong or not. It makes sure that everyone knows there place and you cant step outside that space. (Which is funny becuase Captain America 2 is probably my favourite MCU movie becuase it is the polar opposite of CA1). Hydra from CA2 feels like an extension of the America represented in CA1, just with less killing innocents.

Red Skull saying he was more evil than Hitler was the point that just took me out of the movie. Also, not many people during WW2 thought Hitler was a super villain like we do today. No one knew about concentration camps til the war almost ended. It shocked the armies on both sides of the conflict. Hitler wa just seen as aggressive and anti-Semetic, but then so was places like Russia. For almost a decade, he just pushed Jews out of the country, not collect them all for gassing. Racial purity was a pretty stamdard thought at the time, and wasn't exclusive to Germany.

But I'm a person who is very against things like the pledge of allegiance. Forcing people to act a certain way deletes all individualism. It's anti-Freedom, anti-Free Speech and feels so 1984-esque. It's assimilating Westerners into only one interpretation of 'The West' or 'America'. I gather it's like the threat people feel that causes them to use the term Cultraul Marxists, the Lefty version of this. I'm also against car ads telling me what freedom is, becuase clearly they have a very different understanding of freedom to me.

I'm not against patriotism. But unquestioned patriotism is bad for everyone.

 

[Trunkage]

But please, do go on talking about how progressive Disney and its subsidiaries are.

Who's saying this?

Was is Saelune? They stated that marketers are going to advertise, no matter what we do. May as well encourage them not to be assholes. They didn't say they could, they should we should try. Which tells me Saelune highly doubts Disney intentions but is resigned to the fact that's just how the world works. I'm sure Saelune will tell me if I misread this situation.

Otherwise, who is say Disney is the good here?

 

[Erttheking]

As it is turtles all the way down, surely it must be glass ceilings all the way up. Just never mind that the only people actually pushing the notion "geekdom" wasn't a space for women, are the same marketing/advertising class now weaponizing feminism to push women into those spaces by trucking out the same talking points year after year, demonizing and outgrouping anyone with the dreaded "sexist" label should they dare to question it. That, or women are (yet again) being marketed to by one of the most pernicious gendered social pressure (read, gaslighting) campaigns since "real women shave their armpits".

Look, if your idea of equality and inclusion is being browbeaten into corporate pay piggy status on threat of being labeled a sexist, you do you. That's not me.

I'm going to be very blunt with you. The idea that geekdom is a safe place for women is one of the most utterly laughable things I've heard in a long time. I haven't forgotten people freaking out over "fake gamer girls" yet. This is still a medium that panders primarily to hetero men, and suggesting that we move away from that is easily one of the most reliable way to get people to throw shit fits. My best friends regularly tells me the kind of shit she gets from this community. So you painting this as the poor women being taken advantage of by nefarious corporations is just absurd. Generally speaking, female audiences like Captain Marvel, and it wasn't because they were brainwashed by marketing. It feels more like they just like what she's selling. You've been arguing with a woman who likes Captain Marvel. Do you think she was just tricked?

Also, everyone who didn't like Captain Marvel was labeled as an EVIL SEXIST BY MARKETING! Except not really.

 

[Hawki]

Hey... But think about it: We gonna have X-Men and DP in the MCU.

Who's DP?

Also, said it before, I'll say it again, the X-Men being in the MCU is a terrible idea. I'd much rather the X-Men films just do their own thing, because while I'm not their biggest fan (Logan aside), it's still more palatable than the alternative of "oh no, mutants! We've never seen people with superpowers before, let's hate them despite loving creatures like Hulk and Thor!"

 

[Xprimentyl]

Hey... But think about it: We gonna have X-Men and DP in the MCU.

Who's DP?

Deadpool

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

Hey... But think about it: We gonna have X-Men and DP in the MCU.

Who's DP?

Ryan Reynolds.

I agree about X-men, though. Disney doesn't need them. The setting and tone MCU does, doesn't lend itself to stuff X-Men usually deal with. And they're certainly not worth Fox merger.

 

[Schadrach]

Aw c'mon, you gotta enjoy some surface level symbolism like that! Like how the Gauntlet the Avengers make is a right-handed one to deliberately counter Thanos' left-handed or 'sinister' Gauntlet. These people didn't get English degrees for nothing you know XD

To double up on that, in occult circles in some traditions the "left hand path" is seen as malevolent and the "right hand path" as benevolent. In others, the "left hand path" is associated with violating taboos and abandoning set codes of morality, while the "right hand path" follows social conventions and fixed moral codes.

Also the reason why Elpihas Levi's depiction of Baphomet has the right hand raised giving the gesture of benediction and the left lowered in it's inverse.

 

[twistedmic]

Hey... But think about it: We gonna have X-Men and DP in the MCU.
That makes things perfectly balanced, right?

I don't think that Deadpool would be a good fit for the MCU. The MCU is firmly entrenched as a PG-13 franchise. They don't seem to stray too far into moral ambiguity or bloody violence (very little, if any bloodshed) and their brand of humor hovers solidly around 'family-friendly' fare.
Deadpool is strictly an R-rated character. The humorous parts of the movies are in no way family-friendly, the violence is always graphic and bloody, and the serious parts of the movies are far to dark for a PG-13 setting (in my opinion at least). And to water Deadpool down to a PG-13 rating would do a disservice to both the character and to all the people who worked for years to get an R-rated Deapool movie into theaters.
That's not even getting into the issues that might pop up in trying to get any version or appearance of Deadpool cleared to air in China, who have severely strict rules and regulations for foreign movies. I doubt Marvel will be willing to risk money from the Chinese movie market to throw Deadpool into their mix.

The only way I can see Deadpool working in the MCU is in a brief cameo where he realizes that he can't swear (he gets bleeped out every time he tries), maybe a mention of no nudity, then angrily declares that he's going back to Fox and storms off-screen.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

Aw c'mon, you gotta enjoy some surface level symbolism like that! Like how the Gauntlet the Avengers make is a right-handed one to deliberately counter Thanos' left-handed or 'sinister' Gauntlet. These people didn't get English degrees for nothing you know XD

To double up on that, in occult circles in some traditions the "left hand path" is seen as malevolent and the "right hand path" as benevolent. In others, the "left hand path" is associated with violating taboos and abandoning set codes of morality, while the "right hand path" follows social conventions and fixed moral codes.

Also the reason why Elpihas Levi's depiction of Baphomet has the right hand raised giving the gesture of benediction and the left lowered in it's inverse.

Blame the Romans. They thought the left side of you was evil, hence their word for left becomes our word sinister. Its what I was referring to in my post. Its why left-handed people have been getting the short end of the (probably right-handed) stick for centuries.

I agree about X-men, though. Disney doesn't need them. The setting and tone MCU does, doesn't lend itself to stuff X-Men usually deal with. And they're certainly not worth Fox merger.

It would be an interesting shift in the balance of the MCU, that's for sure. After all, how many people in the MCU so far have actually been born with their powers? Most of them got them later on from some sort of science. To suddenly have people just straight up being born with superpowers is a going to be a massive shift

 

[Siyano_v1legacy]

I cant say I liked it, it was ok, but felt like there is a few holes I may not understand.
I have few question for this movie.

Spoiler

Why dont they use the time gems to revert time?
Why Thanos is able to use Mjolnir? (it's the same has Hela when she broke it?)
Felt like that Captain Marvel helping them was quite random and great timing!
Roger is now supposed to be able to use Mjolnir?
Gems so powerful few can withstand them, like hulk with the gauntlet, but a normal human was able to use them without problem...

oh well i guess im overthinking it.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

I cant say I liked it, it was ok, but felt like there is a few holes I may not understand.
I have few question for this movie.

Spoiler

Why dont they use the time gems to revert time?
Why Thanos is able to use Mjolnir? (it's the same has Hela when she broke it?)
Felt like that Captain Marvel helping them was quite random and great timing!
Roger is now supposed to be able to use Mjolnir?
Gems so powerful few can withstand them, like hulk with the gauntlet, but a normal human was able to use them without problem...

oh well i guess im overthinking it.

In order...

Spoiler

I don't know if it's ever really necessary for them to use the Time Stone whenever they have it. However, I felt it was implied that Rogers used it after living a life in an alternate timeline with Peggy, then returned it. I could be wrong, though.

I don't recall Thanos ever really using Mjolnir, other than simply immobilizing it or tossing it away. Still a bit of a stretch, but it's just a case of Thanos being Just That Powerful[sup]TM[/sup].

Yeah, her showing up just in time to destroy the ship was a bit of convenient writing. Nothing new for Marvel movies, and it's just something I've come to expect.

Rogers could probably ALWAYS use Mjolnir if he needed to. He budged it in Avengers: Age of Ultron, when none of the other Avengers could even move it, so I agree with the theory that he simply pretended he couldn't lift it to make Thor feel good, hence why Thor yells out "I knew it!" when Steve does wield Mjolnir.

I wouldn't say Tony Stark used them without problem. Remember, the effort to use the Stones outright killed Tony.

 

[Caramel Frappe]

Have an issue with the ending of the movie honestly.

Spoiler

The fact Tony had to be the one to use the 6 stones instead of Marvel kind of irks me. While the movie as a whole was great, the death of Tony felt ... forced. How did Tony somehow swipe all the stones, when Marvel who is WAY stronger, failed to even remove any of the stones?

I understand that she was trying to stop Thanos from snapping by holding his hand, but she could of easily tore out a stone in a split second. Boom. No way he can snap now. But no, instead she gave him this cocky look after Thanos failed to headbutt her, so instead he used the Power Stone to blast her away. You could of used those 5 seconds to easily tear a stone out or do something else!

I understand Tony's famous line and sacrifice is so good, but ... come on. Seemed unnecessary for him of all people to do it.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Have an issue with the ending of the movie honestly.

Spoiler

The fact Tony had to be the one to use the 6 stones instead of Marvel kind of irks me. While the movie as a whole was great, the death of Tony felt ... forced. How did Tony somehow swipe all the stones, when Marvel who is WAY stronger, failed to even remove any of the stones?

I understand that she was trying to stop Thanos from snapping by holding his hand, but she could of easily tore out a stone in a split second. Boom. No way he can snap now. But no, instead she gave him this cocky look after Thanos failed to headbutt her, so instead he used the Power Stone to blast her away. You could of used those 5 seconds to easily tear a stone out or do something else!

I understand Tony's famous line and sacrifice is so good, but ... come on. Seemed unnecessary for him of all people to do it.

?Could HAVE?. Sorry, I?m not generally a grammar Nazi, but I was holding that one in like explosive diarrhea. I?ll go away now; ignore me.