So how do you feel about Margaret Thatcher's death
- Thread starter scorn the biomage
- Start date
I would like to point out that she's enjoyed a rather decent popularity after her term as Prime Minister- even though this site is filled mostly with liberals, doesn't mean it's the actual popular opinion. She is still frequently cited as one of the best Prime Ministers in British history, amongst a variety of right-wing and left-wing centered polls.
Like much of her policies. But its not quite just pointless spite.Zombie Sodomy said:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/disunited-in-mourning-police-fear-thatcher-funeral-may-turn-into-security-nightmare-8566452.html
Her death is going to let her fade away. Her funeral is going to be a major event for the activists. Her death is a rallying cry, an event that will help galvanize the resistance against this government.
As for what I think about her death?
Well, with luck I will be at her funeral and part of the protest. I hate what she represents and I do not like this idea that just because she is dead we should stop criticising her and her policies.
Not really no.Gaianus said:
When WBC picket a funeral, it is a private affair for a rather innocuous person.
Thatchers funeral is being paid for by the tax payer at a time of austerity. Thatcher is being rehabilitated by the Tories as they try to gloss over everything horrendous that she did.
Think of it like this, if there was a public Ceremony for Hitler, would Germans head out onto the streets?
Thatcher lived in the public eye and died in the public eye. If her family decided to have a private funeral and told the state to fuck off then I would be totally and utterly behind you and I would be having arguments with those who would protest at such an affair. However, her funeral is effectively going to shut down London. She is getting full military honours.
She is, in the eyes of some, a criminal. The sinking of the Belgrano being just one of the reasons why. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano
Add in what she did, the damage she caused, the lives destroyed, the people who died as a result of her domestic policies and the trauma that some areas are still facing today as a direct result of her policies, well...
Yeah.
Its different. On the surface it may seem similar, but it simply is not.
90s kid here, so I don't have much of a personal opinion to give. From what I've seen in history books, though, it looks like she really put UK's economy back on track, even though that meant screwing over certain demographics.
I'd say she's a very controversial politician, this doesn't mean that she deserves such disrespect post mortem though.
I'd say she's a very controversial politician, this doesn't mean that she deserves such disrespect post mortem though.
This is the first time she's really being talked about in years. Lots of non-British people are just now figuring out who she is. She had already pretty much faded away; now everyone who hated her is bringing her back.Mr F. said:
We are not the ones bringing her back. The move to give her a ceremonial burial whilst simultaneously trying to massage the bad bits out of her memory is what is bringing her back. I just hope she is remembered by what she did and the whole "But won't someone think of the poor family!" argument will fade away like the load of hot air that it is (They could have opted for a private burial. They did not.)Zombie Sodomy said:
Didn't like her, but then she was ousted from power just before I was born, she'd already been in a state of deteriorating health for years now and I've never really been the type to rejoice in other people's demise; so it's ultimately a piece of news that really doesn't have much impact or significance to me. Basically, I'm indifferent.
Wow. That's got to be the fastest time for Godwin's Law I've ever seen. First of all, she's a former leader of the country, so of course she's going to have a fancy funeral. We held a state funeral for Nixon, for Christ's sake. It's common practice. Despite what you say, she appears to be quite popular. Most of what I've studied show that whenever a poll's taken about popular Prime Ministers, she tends to be up in the top 5. So, no, you and any protest will not be the voice of the people you apparently think it is. You are not Enjolras and the Friends of the ABC putting up the barricade once General Lamarque dies.Mr F. said:
Debatable, 'Thatcher's job approval rating fell to 23 per cent by December 1980, lower than recorded for any previous Prime Minister.'Gaianus said:
She was a nasty piece of work who took things to extremes simply to prove a point, not to help improve a country. not only is her economic legacy (the hole we currently find ourselves in) one of the worst out there. She was also anti homosexual rights and a racist to boot, as seen in her pro apartheid view, condemning the ANC, and thereby Mandela, as 'a typical terrorist organization'.
Didn't respect her whilst she was alive, I don't respect her now she is dead.
So...Gaianus said:
Only the majority has the right to have their voices heard? Only the majority matter?
That ser, is referred to as "Tyranny of the Majority" and it is a problem within democracies.
I do not think I speak for "The people." Far from it. However, I am part of a growing protest movement and there will be quite the turnout for the counter protest.
And, what with the austerity, its a waste of fucking money.
Didn't you get enough of a beat down on this in the Religion & Politics thread by clockmaker? He's completely right. People aren't going to see you attack a dead old lady's funeral and think: "you sure are noble protectors of the poor", they're going to think: "you sick, vindictive people".Mr F. said:
Some people will think that, yes. Some people will think "I agree, what a waste of money on some old ***** that destroyed this community and lead to *INSERT NAME* killing himself.". Some people will just see a protest happening and realise that there are still people trying to fight for this country.Lethos said:
So... Yeah.
And I do not consider what I got to be a beat down. Heh.
There is a difference between an old dead lady (As in, some random dead lady) and a politician. I disagree with the fact that we should revere her now that she is dead. If you have been in the other thread then you have read the articles I have posted.
I could post a few more if you like. Might as well.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/owen-jones-thatcherism-was-a-national-catastrophe-that-still-poisons-us-8564858.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/margaret-thatcher-respect-for-the-dead-is-an-outdated-and-foolish-principle-8566448.html
So.
Have anything of your own to say? Or will you keep parroting others?
Look at the objective posters. The posters from the States, Australia, Canada. The vast majority of their comments are something a long the lines of: "don't really know who she is but celebrating someone's death seems distasteful". Now you can either look at that and come to the conclusion that these people are just ignorant to your plight, or you can look at it and see that when you remove your own emotions from the equation, it doesn't take a genius to see that picketing the funeral of someone is not acceptable behavior.Mr F. said:
But no, you're so blinded by your hate and your ideology, you're willing to perform abhorrent actions to try and win people over to your side. First of all most people aren't going to want to associate themselves with you and your ideology once you become contaminated by a reputation of being thugs. Second of all, anyone who does want to associate themselves with you is probably not going to be the type of person who propels your ideology into the mainstream. Beyond that what is picketing a funeral going to achieve? The old lady certainly can't defend herself so you're not exactly sparking a debate. And any attempts to sway over supporters of Thatcherism are going to be dead in the water once they see your behavior.
Honestly though I'm not sure why I'm trying to persuade you not to do this. Anyone who is so out of touch with reality that they think it's okay to picket a funeral probably isn't going to respond to pleas for reason.
Also FYI, but just throwing opinion pieces at me does nothing. Those articles are written by people. Just because they happen to be written down and published online doesn't make them any more correct.
Those opinion pieces have been written by well respected journalists. I was trying to point out a few things that you seem to be ignoring.Lethos said:
1) The idea that we must never speak ill of the dead is damaging and stupid.
2) As I have already said, I would not picket a funeral if it was a private affair. This is not. This is a state funded ceremony and a total waste of money.
3) We shall see what the turnout is. The Met has already admitted it is worried about the scale of a policing operation. Thatcher is not as loved as you would assume.
4) The views of Aussies and stuff does not really matter whatsoever. Sorry. If you have no idea what she did in her lifetime, if you have not grown up with the children of her policies, if you are not living in Thatcherite Britain, your opinion matters very, VERY little to me.
5) Blinded by hate? Well, To a degree, yeah. I am driven by my ideology. Exactly the thing that people loved her for. Strange, isn't it. Well, This man is not for turning.
Picketing a private funeral = Unacceptable.
Protesting at a state-funded funeral for a political figure that is hated by a large amount of the country = Acceptable.
There is a difference. Refusing to see that difference, refusing to acknowledge it, is pointless.
I know, Godwins law and all, but lets say Hitler was given a state funded funeral tomorrow. Would you be irritated at the protestors? Would you call them "thugs", would you declare their actions to be "distasteful".
Thatcher destroyed lives. Since you will not read those articles, I will just snip a few bits out for you. Particularly the following, it applies perfectly to what you are saying.
And as for why we will be protesting at her state-funded funeral, against both Thacherite policies and the massaging of her brutal legacy?
So yeah. We are thugs because we do not want her to be remembered as something that she is not. We are thugs because we still see her to be a threat. Just gonna drop what I said on FB here.
To put it simply: Some of us hate her and her policies. The Tories are trying to make all of her bad policies go away. Being dead does not magically make her a better person or one worthy of our respect. If the family did not want this to be happening they should be opting for a private funeral, in which case I would be behind you.
However, if during a time of austerity the government is choosing to waste millions on her funeral, are we supposed to roll over and take it? This government has driven over a quarter of a million people into relying on foodbanks to survive and is now taking steps to fleece the poor of what little they have left.
Being from the States, I'm only vaguely familiar with her politics. On the other hand, I would say that this reaction seems to be in poor tastes to say the least. There are presidents that I really REALLY didn't like, but I'd never riot in the streets, picket their funeral, or dance on their graves. I would continue to express my disagreement with their policies in a way that would further civil discourse; this reaction seems to me to be the antithesis of that.
I don't usually bring politics into this forum, but I will say that she had bigger balls than most of the men I've ever met (I really don't want to find out that's sexist). I'm sure she struck a lot of fear with people using only special glares. Posting this because it's what popped in my head when I read the title...
[youtube]u-d4D9GZ7r8[/youtube]
Edit: I'm always relieved to hear, during an age of "trolling" and immense insincerity, that people still find things in to be in poor taste and uncalled for. You can feel that way without desiring censorship, and it's putting your humanity first.
[youtube]u-d4D9GZ7r8[/youtube]
Edit: I'm always relieved to hear, during an age of "trolling" and immense insincerity, that people still find things in to be in poor taste and uncalled for. You can feel that way without desiring censorship, and it's putting your humanity first.
In your own words: "will you keep parroting others?" I'm not going to waste my time reading the opinions of some journalists when it's you I'm talking to.Mr F. said:
A lot of what people have said in these forums goes far beyond speaking ill of the dead. Let alone picketing a funeral.
She was without a doubt one of the most influential figures in recent British politics. Despite your best wishes, her death WAS significant. Of course she is going to get a state funeral.
Not everyone who hates Thatcher is low enough to picket a funeral. Even if the turn out is large, the majority of the country will still collectively look at those who turned out with disgust.
Cool, so my pleas for objectivity went unheard then.
You shouldn't be proud of harboring an ideology that fills you with blinding hate. How ironic that you express the qualities that you insult Thatcher for having. Perhaps you're more like her then you think.
Only to those without shame.
I accept that there is a difference between the types of funeral, but picketing either is still unacceptable.
Thatcher didn't start a world war or commit genocide against anyone. You do yourself a disservice by resorting to such tactics.
No one is saying you can't have your say. What they're saying is that you should say it in a way that doesn't ooze bile from your mouth. Even then it's not like we're threatening you with death. You have a right to disrespect the dead. We have a right to tell you to shut up.
Everyone was equal in Britain before Thatcherism because nearly everyone was collectively in a shit hole.
More angst filled, ideology fueled hate. That's what the world needs isn't it? Not understanding, mutual respect and civility. But hate and malice.
Once again, she was one of the most important people of the last century. See above points.
So far I've remained silent on the issue, but might as well chip in my two cent. Being from Northern Ireland, although she was long gone from office before I was born, I learned how she handled the situation here which is were my hatred for her developed. I only remained silent out of respect, but her death doesn't change anything, I hated her when she was alive and still do now. On the subject of those celebrating her death, I'm indifferent, I don't condone or condemn it, this hatred towards her isn't undeserved, she was a vile and hateful woman and possibly the worst PM in British History. But what I find interesting is how the media has protrayed her, treating her as a great leader while only briefly mentioning or simply glossing over her many failures such as failing to condemn the apartheid system in South Africa and calling Mandela a terrorist, supporting Chilean dictator Pinochet and referring to him as an ally(I wonder if she considered those who opposed him as terrorists)she was incredibly homophobic, the Poll tax, the miner's strike, the Hillsborough disaster etc. By looking at her track record and all the people she's fucked over, can you really blame them for rejoicing over her death?