so... Orson Scott Card... boycott why?

[Story]

This thread is confusing.

Douchebag helps make life harder for gay people. Douchebag has a movie thing. Some people don't want to give money or fame to douchebag. The end?

Why are people discussing the merit of this? There's nothing more to it. If you want to support the guy or don't give a shit if he makes life harder for gay people, there's no issue. If you don't want to, you don't. Why is anyone arguing with anyone?

It would seem that some people feel that those who are against Card are being irrational for one reason or another. Whether it being because they believe boycotting the film will not support Card directly or because other famous artists have had controversial ideas/believes and yet don't get boycotted so why should Card? Or it's simply because others believe the work should be separate from the political views of the artist.
Those who are boycotting Card on the other hand are insulted by these insertions, because they feel that their position is more than justified given the seriousness of Card's behavior in a time where the LGBT is still discriminated against and isn't given equal rights.

Interesting stuff. Personally, I'm not interested in Card's work or the Ender's Game because I don't care much for science fiction. So I was never going to see this movie in the first place. I probably won't now that I know a little bit more about Card's political view, though now I feel hypocritical because the CEO of Chick Fil'a also does similar things, yet I still eat there.

 

[drummond13]

Orson Scott Card advocates Utah seceding from the union in order to wage war against the US government to stop gays from getting married.

So I'd say it goes a bit beyond just holding a backwards political view.

Do you have a link for that? I'd really like to see it, not that I don't believe you. He wasn't just being like, dramatic or something, right?

One person buying one ticket to this movie IS marginal support. Which is the only choice any of us have to make in this instance.

Are you honestly only expecting ONE person to see this movie?

What about your feelings? You're free to express your feelings any way you like, be it in not buying a ticket to the movie, or ranting on a forum like this one. Go nuts.

Glad I have your permission. All those people who worked on the film are free to shit talk me on forums too.

Deprive those likely-not-homophobic film executives for no reason other than they bought the rights to a popular science fiction book that has nothing to do with the cause you're fighting against.

Naw, it's cool that I killed that dude. I didn't do it cause he was black so there's nothing wrong right? I don't have to go to jail or anything.
Just because they don't hold that view point doesn't mean they aren't supporting it. If you give a gun to a known murderer, you are to blame when he shoots someone with it. herp da derp.

We all know that Card, a bestselling author for decades, would be broke without the revenue from this film. Crush him with your boycott!

Aaaaaah yes. You can't come up with a decent argument so you just attempt to use sarcasm to belittle mine. Debate 101 brollisimo, don't argue if you ain't got a point.
It's always so nice talking to teenagers.

If you don't see the points I made as arguments, then there's no point in continuing this discussion with you; you aren't listening. The fact that you're actually comparing this to murdering someone and hate crimes demonstrates your own ability to argue.

I'm 33, for the record. Using phrases like "herp da derp" sure makes you sound like an adult, though. I feel soundly put in my place.

 

[deathjavu]

Homophobia is a popular, visible punching bag right now because it was widely acceptable not a decade ago. As opposed to racism (which people prefer to believe has been "solved" or "fixed") or sexism (similar to racism, except people go one step further and claim it doesn't even exist). That's why this is such a thing.

As a huge fan of the books, I was saddened to learn Card is such a nutter. Fortunately I read most of my stuff from the library or buy used copies (I am poor), so I've never given him a dime.

I have no interest in the movie, I cannot possibly imagine it comparing anything to the book. Unlike Lord of the Rings, there's not a lot of scenery and the focus is mainly people's minds rather than the plot.

There's also been some criticism (since the mid 80s) about the way that the book seems to present morality. They felt it was supporting a normative ethical philosophy that values intent over action, and took it too far.

Spoiler: Ender's Game spoilers/my opinions

They felt that Ender got off too easy, and suffered almost no consequences for his actions. I don't know what book they read, but I don't think it was the same one I did. He committed sins for sure. Some of them I argue weren't even his sins, but others were his and his alone. Either way, I think it's implied by the ending that he spent a long time trying to make up for what he had done, trying to attone, so I don't see how it's a huge deal. Someone who studied philosophy and not engineering may have a different and more educated opinion than mine, I think.

Holy BALLS, Card wrote another 3 books that in large part cover Ender's attempts to atone for this, and he feels guilty about it right up until he dies. I suppose those weren't around in the 80's...? Whatever. This kind of shit is why philosophy gets a bad rep in my book, the relation that it bears to reality- even fictional reality- is tenuous at best.

Bean's the real asshole according to the parallel series, he actually KNEW it wasn't a game. Of course, he suffers pretty ridiculously both before and after, so there's that...

 

[Erttheking]

*Reads thread* is it just me or is simply having an opinion different from someone elses more than enough for you to be overanalyzed and attacked nowadays?

OT: I unno. The guy seems like a whackjob and I'd rather not give him my money.

 

[SanguiniusMagnificum]

You know, I kind of see it like this.

(Cue clever metaphor)

I dislike Bob. Bob is a dick. He's a rude, rascist, misogynistic and generally unlikeable **** who likes to stand on a little stool in his garden and shout stupid stuff.

But Bob is really great at painting panoramas. So, one day, I decide to buy one of his paintings and hang it on my wall. Because it looks pretty damn epic, you know.

Does that mean that I support Bob in his cuntitude (that's a word, right?)? Does that mean that I want Bob to continue being a raging dick? No. No it doesn't. It just means that I appreciate his skill and the amount of time that he has put in making that epic painting.

For people that don't like metaphors: Artist≠Art

Just my opinion, folks.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

All that biological imperative against gay marriage stuff, never understoo that argument.
The planets population is 7 billion and climbing. We have enough breeders.

The whole sanctity of marriage thing? Plenty of hetros out there getting divorced. Go picket the divorce courts!

Gays shouldn't adopt? Why deny children the chance of a loving home because of outdated values?

Can not wait until the people with these bigoted ideas die out

 

[Elijah Newton]

Apologies if this has already been posted - I see four pages of comments and don't have time to read through them all to check. In 2000 a writer for Salon.com interviewed Card and wrote "My favorite author, my worst interview." ( http://www.salon.com/2000/02/03/card/ )

I think people interested in journalism might take issue with the interviewer's presentation but even allowing for that bias Card's responses sat poorly with me. *shrug* YMMV.

For people that don't like metaphors: Artist≠Art

While I have a lot of sympathy for the artist ≠ art argument, when there's an abundance of material by authors or artists with whom I agree, I'll generally pass on supporting ones with whom I don't.

In Card's case, while he wrote an interesting book its not like it's the last interesting book of speculative fiction out thereand there's a ton of related genre movies I've been meaning to see which I could watch instead.

 

[SanguiniusMagnificum]

Does that mean that I support Bob in his cuntitude (that's a word, right?)?

Actually, it does.

If you order Domino's pizza, some of that money goes to Tom Monaghan. Mr. Monaghan then uses that money to repress women's reproductive rights through several conservative, pro-life organizations. Therefore, if you give money to Dominos, you're funding the repression of women.

And if you pay to see Ender's Game, you're funding a person who is actively campaigning against gay rights and promoting seditious behavior in radial groups within the United States. And that's even if the pro-Nazi/Hitler-was-OK undertones of the Ender's Game series is just imaginative bullshit and not indicative of Card's actual beliefs.

Well mate, practically almost every product goes through something like this. Just bought the fancy new Xbone? Well, be happy to know that part of your money went to a bunch of African warlords that use child labor to extract some of the elements that are needed to make One!

Want to have a cold banana milkshake on a hot summer day? Be glad to know that your money is safe with Chiquita Brands International (a.k.a United Fruit Company), a company that once helped the US government to set up a bunch of military dictatorships in Latin-America and still has ties to severeal paramilitary groups in the region.

 

[grey_space]

You know it's kinda funny. I've loved Card's work for years and never picked up even a hint of homophobia from any of his works, either science fiction or fantasy.

If anything I would have read a certain asexuality , if not even homo eroticism in his work come to think of it.

IE: the naked fight in the shower, Valentine's description of Ender's physical beauty when they met on the raft...Even in his Tales of Alvin Maker I can remember that he was described as very blonde and very buff. Can not remember for the life
of me what his wife Peggy looks like.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

I view art and artists separately. If I boycotted the work of everyone who I thought was a jerk or simply disagreed with (or even sought out their works because of their politics) then that would be a pretty messed up mindset.

So, I played through Fez because it's a great game, no matter who Phil Fish is. I also won't see Ender's Game because I've read that the adaptation kind of sucks.

Isn't Phil Fish having significant difficulties with social interaction kind of on a different level than Orson Scott Card being a repellent human being?

Phil Fish is a racist douchebag, they are both repellant, just in their own unique asinine ways.

I didn't hear about that. Can I has details?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Well mate, practically almost every product goes through something like this.

So people shouldn't try to limit it, because they are unlikely to do away with it completely? Better to not bother than anything less than a perfect fix?

 

[Ritualist]

If you don't see the points I made as arguments, then there's no point in continuing this discussion with you; you aren't listening. The fact that you're actually comparing this to murdering someone and hate crimes demonstrates your own ability to argue.

I'm 33, for the record. Using phrases like "herp da derp" sure makes you sound like an adult, though. I feel soundly put in my place.

No, I used an example. An example is not the same as a comparison, you may be 33, but I guess you still haven't learned the difference. Please try again.

 

[EternallyBored]

Does that mean that I support Bob in his cuntitude (that's a word, right?)?

Actually, it does.

If you order Domino's pizza, some of that money goes to Tom Monaghan. Mr. Monaghan then uses that money to repress women's reproductive rights through several conservative, pro-life organizations. Therefore, if you give money to Dominos, you're funding the repression of women.

And if you pay to see Ender's Game, you're funding a person who is actively campaigning against gay rights and promoting seditious behavior in radial groups within the United States. And that's even if the pro-Nazi/Hitler-was-OK undertones of the Ender's Game series is just imaginative bullshit and not indicative of Card's actual beliefs.

Well mate, practically almost every product goes through something like this. Just bought the fancy new Xbone? Well, be happy to know that part of your money went to a bunch of African warlords that use child labor to extract some of the elements that are needed to make One!

Want to have a cold banana milkshake on a hot summer day? Be glad to know that your money is safe with Chiquita Brands International (a.k.a United Fruit Company), a company that once helped the US government to set up a bunch of military dictatorships in Latin-America and still has ties to severeal paramilitary groups in the region.

False dichotomy, people are entirely capable of boycotting more than one thing at a time. There's also the difference that Card is an American and is funding groups that directly effect Americans, so the conflict of interest can be directly observed and felt, rather than taking place in a foreign country with laws and leadership the average American citizen can't effect.

None of that changes the fact that gay people in the U.S. are directly opposed by Card, their issues are important to them, because it is something they are directly and currently lobbying or fighting for.

As a final note, both exploitative labor and conflict minerals have active boycotts against them,as well as a number of other movements, charities and awareness campaigns. Far larger than the movement against Card.

If your interested here's some links:
http://www.raisehopeforcongo.org/content/initiatives/conflict-minerals (charity and tracks boycott and ban information and stories, theres a number of groups trying to get major western countries to bad or restrict products using minerals from these areas)
http://www.siliconexpert.com/lp/conflict-minerals?gclid=CN_6yMLpy7oCFW1yQgod4T8A5w (here's a fun tool that lets business's track where their suppliers get their resources from, because business owners can be conscious of issues too, and often are)
http://joojoo-blog.blogspot.com/2013/09/social-action-sunday-alternatives-to.html (here's a blog for ideas, news, and boycotts on exploitative labor in the fashion industry)
http://www1.american.edu/ted/chocolate-slave.htm (maybe not bananas, how about a chocolate boycott for you, site is incredibly basic, but contains a number of links to charities and movements in the area to end exploitation)

See, maybe we can't boycott everything we hold even the slightest moral objection to, but there are people and organizations fighting these practices every day. It's your job as an intelligent consumer to pick and choose what ideals you are willing to advocate for.

For some people that's gay rights, for others it's ending child labor in Africa. It's better spread the manpower and money out, just throwing people and money at a problem has diminishing returns after a certain point.

On the other hand you seem to be advocating for doing nothing, just because we can't adequately fight every problem, doesn't mean we should just give up and do nothing. That helps nobody.

 

[SanguiniusMagnificum]

Well mate, practically almost every product goes through something like this.

So people shouldn't try to limit it, because they are unlikely to do away with it completely? Better to not bother than anything less than a perfect fix?

I've never implied that we shouldn't do anything about it. Just meant to say that not everyone knows where their money is going wihout it becoming a huge scandal in the media.

 

[Doclector]

Should we boycott the movie? No, I don't believe so. I'm a firm believer in seperating the work of an artist from the personality of the artist him/herself wherever possible. Granted, that producer credit makes it difficult, but do you really know what any filmmaker does with the money from their movies?

Should this person be seen as a terrible person? Yes. It is no longer something for debate. Some people are gay. These people should have a right to marry. No questions goddamn asked. Maybe if he just didn't like gay people or didn't personally believe in gay marriage, I could let it slide. But this guy is full on calling for a world in which people are not allowed to be publicly gay, and whilst freedom of speech means this kind of ignorance should never be a capital offence, it has to be said that the world would be better off without this disgusting individual.

 

[SanguiniusMagnificum]

Does that mean that I support Bob in his cuntitude (that's a word, right?)?

Actually, it does.

If you order Domino's pizza, some of that money goes to Tom Monaghan. Mr. Monaghan then uses that money to repress women's reproductive rights through several conservative, pro-life organizations. Therefore, if you give money to Dominos, you're funding the repression of women.

And if you pay to see Ender's Game, you're funding a person who is actively campaigning against gay rights and promoting seditious behavior in radial groups within the United States. And that's even if the pro-Nazi/Hitler-was-OK undertones of the Ender's Game series is just imaginative bullshit and not indicative of Card's actual beliefs.

Well mate, practically almost every product goes through something like this. Just bought the fancy new Xbone? Well, be happy to know that part of your money went to a bunch of African warlords that use child labor to extract some of the elements that are needed to make One!

Want to have a cold banana milkshake on a hot summer day? Be glad to know that your money is safe with Chiquita Brands International (a.k.a United Fruit Company), a company that once helped the US government to set up a bunch of military dictatorships in Latin-America and still has ties to severeal paramilitary groups in the region.

False dichotomy, people are entirely capable of boycotting more than one thing at a time. There's also the difference that Card is an American and is funding groups that directly effect Americans, so the conflict of interest can be directly observed and felt, rather than taking place in a foreign country with laws and leadership the average American citizen can't effect.

None of that changes the fact that gay people in the U.S. are directly opposed by Card, their issues are important to them, because it is something they are directly and currently lobbying or fighting for.

As a final note, both exploitative labor and conflict minerals have active boycotts against them,as well as a number of other movements, charities and awareness campaigns. Far larger than the movement against Card.

If your interested here's some links:
http://www.raisehopeforcongo.org/content/initiatives/conflict-minerals (charity and tracks boycott and ban information and stories, theres a number of groups trying to get major western countries to bad or restrict products using minerals from these areas)
http://www.siliconexpert.com/lp/conflict-minerals?gclid=CN_6yMLpy7oCFW1yQgod4T8A5w (here's a fun tool that lets business's track where their suppliers get their resources from, because business owners can be conscious of issues too, and often are)
http://joojoo-blog.blogspot.com/2013/09/social-action-sunday-alternatives-to.html (here's a blog for ideas, news, and boycotts on exploitative labor in the fashion industry)
http://www1.american.edu/ted/chocolate-slave.htm (maybe not bananas, how about a chocolate boycott for you, site is incredibly basic, but contains a number of links to charities and movements in the area to end exploitation)

See, maybe we can't boycott everything we hold even the slightest moral objection to, but there are people and organizations fighting these practices every day. It's your job as an intelligent consumer to pick and choose what ideals you are willing to advocate for.

For some people that's gay rights, for others it's ending child labor in Africa. It's better spread the manpower and money out, just throwing people and money at a problem has diminishing returns after a certain point.

On the other hand you seem to be advocating for doing nothing, just because we can't adequately fight every problem, doesn't mean we should just give up and do nothing. That helps nobody.

Well, even though you're completely right, I'm just going to say that I'm not advocating anything, just stating my opinion on the distinction between an artist and his works of art, that's all. I might have gotten a little bit sidetracked, but well...

BTW, I'm an avid supporter of Oxfam International in Belgium (basically it's an organization that stands in for the rights of farmers and other producents in third world countries), so I'm willing to shell out a bit more money of Fair Trade coffee beans, knowing that they come from people that weren't exploited in the production process.

 

[babinro]

Note: I don't know what Orson Scott Card has done and for the purpose of my post it's not relevant.

I personally find what Movie Bob did to be extremely unprofessional. He told people about controversial matters that were none of our business and then said we have every right to boycott based on our beliefs. He then acted as if he was not going to judge and then reviewed the movie. The movie review didn't seem to start for almost one quarter of the video. What Movie Bob did there is immediately setup the movie to fail or be looked down upon based on the actions of one person related to the making of this movie.

Should we be calling out controversial personal opinions of directors, supporting actors, co-writers etc in our video reviews?

It doesn't matter if this is/was a big topic leading up to the movies release either. That information is frankly none of our business when we click on a link to watch a movie review. In my opinion, Movie Bob should have cut all of that stuff out and left it as a comment or wrote a separate editorial piece bringing up the matter for people to consider.

If I was someone other than Orson Scott Card who worked on the movie and didn't share his personal views I'd be annoyed by the unprofessional nature of that review. Why take down the efforts of everyone involved because of the unrelated actions of one individual in the spotlight?

I've also seen Film Brain have to defend himself similarly when reviewing the movie. I didn't watch any other reviews of the movie so far all I know these are the only two instances of this happening.