so... Orson Scott Card... boycott why?

Recommended Videos

EternallyBored

Terminally Apathetic
Jun 17, 2013
1,434
0
0
wulf3n said:
Ok I know you and Skies are having it out right now, but I'm going to interject my two cents again, I'm bored and watching really depressing social dramas for a law class so I got nothing better to do at the moment.

I've done a lot of this kind of thing in my life, I mean a whole lot, pretty much comes with being a social worker, LGBT, feminist, children's welfare, worker's rights, poverty, spousal abuse, etc. etc. etc. Like you just mentioned, your major mistake was saying "many" it's a fuzzy term and heavily implies that that you are trying to delegitimize anyone that boycotts Mr. Card as a fad follower who doesn't actually care that much for gay rights in general, at best it sounds dismissive, at worst, it looks like your basically attacking anyone that wants to boycott the movie.

Boycotts are not a stable thing, they come from many sources and can form in many ways, a boycott can change as it loses or gains popularity, but any boycott with enough people in it usually follows a general model. At the center, you've got people who make up the organizers and advocates. These are the people that do this kind of thing for a living or as a major volunteer effort: professional bloggers, staff in various advocacy groups (in this case, staff and organizers from major LGBT groups), professors (usually of the liberal arts variety), community organizers, social workers, and many others. Basically these people make it their job to spread information on issues they are passionate about, if a boycott is getting traction on a major issue, you're going to have a core group of people organizing and setting up things like protests, media attention, and outreach; these aren't spontaneous events and usually revolve around people with the time and dedication to do this way way more than on a single instance of an issue. Don't mistake this for intricately planned leadership though, even at the core level, these things can still be little more than unintended consequences, a blog post here, a little blurb on a University website there.

The next level out (imagine it as a circle with smaller circles inside it getting towards the previously mentioned core), you've got the dedicated people. Volunteers or staff, these are the people that make up the primary circle of your efforts. These are the passionate people, generally focused on a single issue like gay rights, these are your regulars. The people you can count on to follow up on any issue they are passionate about. In volunteers cases these people dedicate the time they can, maybe they can't participate all the time, but they will generally try to be genuine contributors to the cause they believe in. Between your organizers and your regulars, these are the people you'll see often showing up at protests or on the news when these types of issues gain traction. This is where a lot of the initial word of mouth comes from when a boycott starts.

The next level you've got your allies and participants. People who have commitments and lives, but genuinely want to help. These are the people, you've generally wrangled in from previous outreach efforts, they've stuck around because they believe in the issue your representing. Anything at this point or past is going to have high turnover, internet forum advocacy is easy, but eating up a chunk of a person's time to ask them to help spread information on your chosen target is difficult, people have lives, and even gay people have careers and families, they can't always dedicate significant chunks of time to anything you ask. These people generally specialize a bit more, for example people that will reliably show up to gay marriage rallies, but don't have the time for much else.

I can go on but I'll skip to the relevant part, at the outermost ring of this onion o' activism, you've got the uninitiated and the hangers on. These are the people that have been pulled in by whatever your current effort is, in this case, the Card Boycott. As I said before, a lot of people have been boycotting Card for decades, now that the Ender's game movie is coming out, many of those inner layers are trying to raise awareness to inform people about Mr. Card's views and actions. People on the outside see that information and decide to spread it around. Some people will indeed make rash decisions or support something superficially, it is the job of those inner layers to educate these people on why they are boycotting Mr. Card, as well as raising other issues relevant to their movement. In this case, Card is a good demonstration of the kinds of people still arrayed against gay marriage advocates. The idea is to take some of these uninitiated and to either educate them to make them better advocates for their beliefs and ideal, or to inspire them to take a greater role in advocacy and participate in future initiatives.

So yes, some people do treat boycotts as a superficial do-nothing way to score social justice points. To equate that to "many" does a disservice to the time and effort so many people put forward, to share their ideals and beliefs with the masses. Advocacy and activism are an involved process, a boycott rarely just springs from nothing with no organization or guide, anything like that, that hopes to get anywhere, requires dedication, belief, and passion from many people involved. Just like Mr. Card has his organization that dedicates itself to banning gay marriage, so too does the LGBT community have it's counterpoint, with a lot of people donating millions of dollars and millions of manhours of volunteer time every single year in order to try to accomplish its goals.
 

EternallyBored

Terminally Apathetic
Jun 17, 2013
1,434
0
0
KingsGambit said:
I don't know what happened to respectfully disagreeing with people. While I absolutely don't condone his views I will absolutely defend his or anyone's right to have them. It's a political view and in a country with freedom of speech and democratic process everyone is entitled to their religious faith, political views and so on. It seems that Internet forumites however have no respect for any views other than their own (atheists, ironically, are a good example of this) and are as bad as the people they protest against.

As long as he doesn't break the law and practice discrimination in any of his dealings, I don't care what his views are. I'll grant of course that he is a dick however.

The way to win people is with the carrot, not with the stick.
Ok, what are you talking about? Nobody has actually said they want to censor the guy yet, a boycott is not a violation of someones free speech. You mention other people, but none of those people seem to be here right now, he absolutely has the right to express his views, and other people have the right to call him a hateful bigoted old man, and they also have the right not to see his movie.

You say other people have no respect for any views but their own? What about Mr. Card's lack of respect for Homosexual's views, why are his views protected speech, but other people's views of him as wrong, suddenly a lack of respect. Not that any of this actually matters, Freedom of speech only applies to the government, so unless the President or members of congress are posting here without our knowledge, there is literally nothing we can do to violate his freedom of speech and expression.

I apologize, but I am so damn tired of people pretending freedom of speech has some bearing on how private citizens are supposed to respond to someone else, please stop using the Constitution as some sort of moral bludgeon to make it look like you have the moral high ground, you don't. Freedom of speech has jack to do with this discussion, and bringing it up just comes across as cheap emotional manipulation to shame the side of the argument you don't like. If Mr. Card wants respect he can earn it himself, there is no law guaranteeing it to him.
 

jklinders

New member
Sep 21, 2010
945
0
0
I'm not reading through 4 pages of threads right now so I am responding directly to the OP here.

I'll start by saying that Orson Scott Card might have a credit on the movie but the deal he cut was a one time cash payment for the movie rights and he is getting NOTHING from royalties here. I saw that from multiple sources including Card himself. While he's an asshole I'll trust him on this.

As for reasons for the boycott...aside from the fallacy that such a boycott would actually hurt him (it can't since he was already paid as much as he will from this although book sales will undoubtedly increase for the first time in over a decade) it could be because he is a grade A nutjob. Forget wikipedia. Go to Card's website. He is politically active and everything you need to know about this man's vile and insane beliefs are there to be seen. From comparing Obama to Hitler, to his ongoing efforts to oppress homosexuals worldwide, to his lovely thoughts on immigration to the idea that religion should be force fed to children at as young an age as possible. It's all fucking there.

So yeah, I have no problem denying this fucknut money. I might see the movie though as I cannot control the fact he has already been paid but I will read no book of his. I see enough propaganda as it is, I don't need to subject myself to more.
 

wulf3n

New member
Mar 12, 2012
1,394
0
0
Master of the Skies said:
I hadn't posted yet(Edit: I did, I got confused there. I didn't take it to mean me however as I hadn't said anything about Card at that point). However the reason you seemed to give was that they weren't consistent enough, which might apply to quite a lot of people and there are other possible reasons for people not to be utterly consistent in their boycotts. And that is what I took issue with. Not that some likely support causes to look better, but the reason you seemed to use was insufficient and seemed to rope everyone who fit the criteria of not being particularly intent in checking who they ought to boycott.
My posts should taken as the rants of an ignorant jerk amongst many on the internet that they are. I hold no allusion to the validity of my belief as it stems from a pre-existing bias external to the OSC issue.

EternallyBored said:
snip...

So yes, some people do treat boycotts as a superficial do-nothing way to score social justice points. To equate that to "many" does a disservice to the time and effort so many people put forward, to share their ideals and beliefs with the masses.

snip...
Many was a poor choice of words as I hold no opinion as to the quantity. That those who treat boycotts as a superficial do-nothing way to score social justice points exist makes me question the motives of all who aren't fervent in their crusade.

Is this an ignorant point of view? I believe so, but we are the sum of our experiences.

I would have liked to have given a more fitting response, worthy of the effort put into your post, however the sandman comes for us all.
 

neokiva

New member
Jun 14, 2013
27
0
0
SaneAmongInsane said:
I just went ahead and watched MovieBob's review, and knowing nothing of the man he blasted as the kind of the dicks, well obviously I wanted to know more... TO WIKIPEDIA!!!


Yeah so.... I read the wiki on him and it basically accounts to that he's religious and doesn't agree with gay marriage. About the worst of it was that he was a board member on some lobbyist group for defending marriage or some shit like that... Which really makes me wonder if everyone supports what GLADD does in it's quest to "promote equality."

I mean GLADD bullied Kevin Smith over Jay and Silent Bob Strikes Back according to Malcolm Ingram, extorted him out of some amount of money so they wouldn't boycott the film over it's gay jokes.

Anyway, I went to the wiki expecting it to be all "This fucker says we should round them all up and shove 'em into ovens!"

I mean is there like something more concrete than that or are we collectively as a community calling this guy an asshole because he holds a backwards political view? Someone drop a little science on me cause I'm not getting it, guy seems to share the same view on it as Sean Hannity... And Sean's like the Diet Coke of conservative views.
while i have a problem with the artists morals (read:backward asshat)I am more scared of the implications of boycotting an original movie that isn't just some kind of remake, we gotta support the original content otherwise movie studios wont bother and we'll be stuck with crappy remakes forever.
 

Mycroft Holmes

New member
Sep 26, 2011
850
0
0
Orson Scott Card advocates Utah seceding from the union in order to wage war against the US government to stop gays from getting married.

So I'd say it goes a bit beyond just holding a backwards political view.


jklinders said:
I see enough propaganda as it is, I don't need to subject myself to more.
To be fair, Ender's Game is gay as shit. Like, little naked boys wrestling each other in the shower, levels of homoeroticism. Card might have a few unresolved sexual issues...
 

Soundwave

New member
Sep 2, 2012
300
0
0
Mycroft Holmes said:
Orson Scott Card advocates Utah seceding from the union in order to wage war against the US government to stop gays from getting married.

So I'd say it goes a bit beyond just holding a backwards political view.
Do you have a link for that? I'd really like to see it, not that I don't believe you. He wasn't just being like, dramatic or something, right?
 

O maestre

New member
Nov 19, 2008
882
0
0
Axolotl said:
FalloutJack said:
Listen, H.P. Lovecraft was a fantastic racist, but I don't see anyone boycotting HIS work because of it.
That's because he's been dead for over three quarters of a century. If he were still alive and helping run hate groups then people would boycott him. n fact some people who refuse buy or read his work base of his racism.
So when Card dies it will be politically correct to see/read enders game?
 

Someone Depressing

New member
Jan 16, 2011
2,416
0
0
The guy's mad, extremely religious madman.

And he's involved with the film, even if he sold the rights; he's getting money from tickets.
 

Ritualist

New member
Oct 23, 2013
24
0
0
O maestre said:
Axolotl said:
FalloutJack said:
Listen, H.P. Lovecraft was a fantastic racist, but I don't see anyone boycotting HIS work because of it.
That's because he's been dead for over three quarters of a century. If he were still alive and helping run hate groups then people would boycott him. n fact some people who refuse buy or read his work base of his racism.
So when Card dies it will be politically correct to see/read enders game?
It's not about political correctness.
But, when Card dies, and money from his products is no longer going to hateful agendas, yes. It will be okay to partake in his works.
From my understanding there's nothing inherently hateful about them. Just misguided and silly at times. But while he lives he profits from them. And while he profits from them insane people who want homosexuals to be treated as criminals profit from them.
 

Story

Note to self: Prooof reed posts
Sep 4, 2013
905
0
0
Maiev Shadowsong said:
This thread is confusing.

Douchebag helps make life harder for gay people. Douchebag has a movie thing. Some people don't want to give money or fame to douchebag. The end?

Why are people discussing the merit of this? There's nothing more to it. If you want to support the guy or don't give a shit if he makes life harder for gay people, there's no issue. If you don't want to, you don't. Why is anyone arguing with anyone?
It would seem that some people feel that those who are against Card are being irrational for one reason or another. Whether it being because they believe boycotting the film will not support Card directly or because other famous artists have had controversial ideas/believes and yet don't get boycotted so why should Card? Or it's simply because others believe the work should be separate from the political views of the artist.
Those who are boycotting Card on the other hand are insulted by these insertions, because they feel that their position is more than justified given the seriousness of Card's behavior in a time where the LGBT is still discriminated against and isn't given equal rights.

Interesting stuff. Personally, I'm not interested in Card's work or the Ender's Game because I don't care much for science fiction. So I was never going to see this movie in the first place. I probably won't now that I know a little bit more about Card's political view, though now I feel hypocritical because the CEO of Chick Fil'a also does similar things, yet I still eat there.
 

drummond13

New member
Apr 28, 2008
459
0
0
Soundwave said:
Mycroft Holmes said:
Orson Scott Card advocates Utah seceding from the union in order to wage war against the US government to stop gays from getting married.

So I'd say it goes a bit beyond just holding a backwards political view.
Do you have a link for that? I'd really like to see it, not that I don't believe you. He wasn't just being like, dramatic or something, right?
Ritualist said:
drummond13 said:
One person buying one ticket to this movie IS marginal support. Which is the only choice any of us have to make in this instance.
Are you honestly only expecting ONE person to see this movie?

What about your feelings? You're free to express your feelings any way you like, be it in not buying a ticket to the movie, or ranting on a forum like this one. Go nuts.
Glad I have your permission. All those people who worked on the film are free to shit talk me on forums too.
Deprive those likely-not-homophobic film executives for no reason other than they bought the rights to a popular science fiction book that has nothing to do with the cause you're fighting against.
Naw, it's cool that I killed that dude. I didn't do it cause he was black so there's nothing wrong right? I don't have to go to jail or anything.
Just because they don't hold that view point doesn't mean they aren't supporting it. If you give a gun to a known murderer, you are to blame when he shoots someone with it. herp da derp.
We all know that Card, a bestselling author for decades, would be broke without the revenue from this film. Crush him with your boycott!
Aaaaaah yes. You can't come up with a decent argument so you just attempt to use sarcasm to belittle mine. Debate 101 brollisimo, don't argue if you ain't got a point.
It's always so nice talking to teenagers.
If you don't see the points I made as arguments, then there's no point in continuing this discussion with you; you aren't listening. The fact that you're actually comparing this to murdering someone and hate crimes demonstrates your own ability to argue.

I'm 33, for the record. Using phrases like "herp da derp" sure makes you sound like an adult, though. I feel soundly put in my place. :)
 

deathjavu

New member
Nov 18, 2009
111
0
0
Homophobia is a popular, visible punching bag right now because it was widely acceptable not a decade ago. As opposed to racism (which people prefer to believe has been "solved" or "fixed") or sexism (similar to racism, except people go one step further and claim it doesn't even exist). That's why this is such a thing.

As a huge fan of the books, I was saddened to learn Card is such a nutter. Fortunately I read most of my stuff from the library or buy used copies (I am poor), so I've never given him a dime.

I have no interest in the movie, I cannot possibly imagine it comparing anything to the book. Unlike Lord of the Rings, there's not a lot of scenery and the focus is mainly people's minds rather than the plot.

Varitel said:
There's also been some criticism (since the mid 80s) about the way that the book seems to present morality. They felt it was supporting a normative ethical philosophy that values intent over action, and took it too far.

They felt that Ender got off too easy, and suffered almost no consequences for his actions. I don't know what book they read, but I don't think it was the same one I did. He committed sins for sure. Some of them I argue weren't even his sins, but others were his and his alone. Either way, I think it's implied by the ending that he spent a long time trying to make up for what he had done, trying to attone, so I don't see how it's a huge deal. Someone who studied philosophy and not engineering may have a different and more educated opinion than mine, I think.
Holy BALLS, Card wrote another 3 books that in large part cover Ender's attempts to atone for this, and he feels guilty about it right up until he dies. I suppose those weren't around in the 80's...? Whatever. This kind of shit is why philosophy gets a bad rep in my book, the relation that it bears to reality- even fictional reality- is tenuous at best.

Bean's the real asshole according to the parallel series, he actually KNEW it wasn't a game. Of course, he suffers pretty ridiculously both before and after, so there's that...
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Oct 5, 2011
10,845
1
3
Country
United States
*Reads thread* is it just me or is simply having an opinion different from someone elses more than enough for you to be overanalyzed and attacked nowadays?

OT: I unno. The guy seems like a whackjob and I'd rather not give him my money.
 
Jul 31, 2013
181
0
0
You know, I kind of see it like this.

(Cue clever metaphor)

I dislike Bob. Bob is a dick. He's a rude, rascist, misogynistic and generally unlikeable **** who likes to stand on a little stool in his garden and shout stupid stuff.

But Bob is really great at painting panoramas. So, one day, I decide to buy one of his paintings and hang it on my wall. Because it looks pretty damn epic, you know.

Does that mean that I support Bob in his cuntitude (that's a word, right?)? Does that mean that I want Bob to continue being a raging dick? No. No it doesn't. It just means that I appreciate his skill and the amount of time that he has put in making that epic painting.

For people that don't like metaphors: Artist≠Art

Just my opinion, folks.
 
Dec 16, 2009
1,774
0
0
All that biological imperative against gay marriage stuff, never understoo that argument.
The planets population is 7 billion and climbing. We have enough breeders.

The whole sanctity of marriage thing? Plenty of hetros out there getting divorced. Go picket the divorce courts!

Gays shouldn't adopt? Why deny children the chance of a loving home because of outdated values?

Can not wait until the people with these bigoted ideas die out
 

Elijah Newton

New member
Sep 17, 2008
456
0
0
Apologies if this has already been posted - I see four pages of comments and don't have time to read through them all to check. In 2000 a writer for Salon.com interviewed Card and wrote "My favorite author, my worst interview." ( http://www.salon.com/2000/02/03/card/ )

I think people interested in journalism might take issue with the interviewer's presentation but even allowing for that bias Card's responses sat poorly with me. *shrug* YMMV.

SanguiniusMagnificum said:
For people that don't like metaphors: Artist≠Art
While I have a lot of sympathy for the artist ≠ art argument, when there's an abundance of material by authors or artists with whom I agree, I'll generally pass on supporting ones with whom I don't.

In Card's case, while he wrote an interesting book its not like it's the last interesting book of speculative fiction out thereand there's a ton of related genre movies I've been meaning to see which I could watch instead.
 
Jul 31, 2013
181
0
0
MinionJoe said:
SanguiniusMagnificum said:
Does that mean that I support Bob in his cuntitude (that's a word, right?)?
Actually, it does.

If you order Domino's pizza, some of that money goes to Tom Monaghan. Mr. Monaghan then uses that money to repress women's reproductive rights through several conservative, pro-life organizations. Therefore, if you give money to Dominos, you're funding the repression of women.

And if you pay to see Ender's Game, you're funding a person who is actively campaigning against gay rights and promoting seditious behavior in radial groups within the United States. And that's even if the pro-Nazi/Hitler-was-OK undertones of the Ender's Game series is just imaginative bullshit and not indicative of Card's actual beliefs.
Well mate, practically almost every product goes through something like this. Just bought the fancy new Xbone? Well, be happy to know that part of your money went to a bunch of African warlords that use child labor to extract some of the elements that are needed to make One!

Want to have a cold banana milkshake on a hot summer day? Be glad to know that your money is safe with Chiquita Brands International (a.k.a United Fruit Company), a company that once helped the US government to set up a bunch of military dictatorships in Latin-America and still has ties to severeal paramilitary groups in the region.
 

grey_space

Magnetic Mutant
Apr 16, 2012
455
0
0
You know it's kinda funny. I've loved Card's work for years and never picked up even a hint of homophobia from any of his works, either science fiction or fantasy.

If anything I would have read a certain asexuality , if not even homo eroticism in his work come to think of it.

IE: the naked fight in the shower, Valentine's description of Ender's physical beauty when they met on the raft...Even in his Tales of Alvin Maker I can remember that he was described as very blonde and very buff. Can not remember for the life
of me what his wife Peggy looks like.
 

Dr. Cakey

New member
Feb 1, 2011
517
0
0
Desert Punk said:
Dr. Cakey said:
gsilver said:
I view art and artists separately. If I boycotted the work of everyone who I thought was a jerk or simply disagreed with (or even sought out their works because of their politics) then that would be a pretty messed up mindset.

So, I played through Fez because it's a great game, no matter who Phil Fish is. I also won't see Ender's Game because I've read that the adaptation kind of sucks.
Isn't Phil Fish having significant difficulties with social interaction kind of on a different level than Orson Scott Card being a repellent human being?
Phil Fish is a racist douchebag, they are both repellant, just in their own unique asinine ways.
I didn't hear about that. Can I has details?