So, Pirates are Playing Diablo 3
- Thread starter Grey Day for Elcia
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No, it's not really a lot of work. Code reuse is quite a time-saver.Draech said:
As for the other thing, they've dealt with that before. Single and multiplayer characters have been separated since the very beginning. Classic Diablo had no mixing of SP and MP characters at all--you wanted to play multiplayer, you started a new character.
The dupe bug in Classic Diablo stems from a lack of sanity checking in the code for picking up items. It really didn't have anything to do with online or offline. The creation and importing of hacked items was possible because the game had little protection from its memory being overwritten by an outside source. Again, not really anything to do with online or offline there. D2's problems similarly stem from a lack of sanity checking between server and clients.Baldr said:
The main issue with both is that the peers all trust each other to some degree. They likely had to, due to hardware limitations back then they simply may not have had the power to act otherwise. D3 however is different. The server now essentially acts as God, determining everything from player positioning (handled by clients previously) to loot drops. The server tells the clients what they have, what they get, what they're hitting, and doesn't take anything in return (or shouldn't, as it would be silly for the server to say, "a bronze ring of mana dropped" and then blithely accept a client telling it "I picked up an obsidian ring of the zodiac"). If Classic Diablo had had this model, the infamous Godly Plate of the Whale (impossible for the game code to generate on any level, and thus can only be imported with a trainer) would never have existed--at least in multiplayer, where the server could just up and say no. It'd work in single player, with no server to tell the game no, but big deal, if people want to cheat (and get a crappy armor, GPoW sucks, it was only popular because people are idiots) in single player let them.
Of course, it wouldn't need to have any account overlap, it wouldn't need an account at all. Single player characters wouldn't be tied to an account [small]well unless you consider the user account on Windows[/small] as why would they need to be? They're local.Draech said:
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Yes, D2 worked differently. I think I pretty much covered that. I'm not pointing to it as a successful model (albeit moreso than Classic Diablo's peer to peer system), if that's what you're thinking.
No, I think it's you who doesn't understand. An account wouldn't be needed because instead of storing the character data in a file on a remote server, it's stored in a file on the local host. All the stuff you're worried about would actually be the same, only the destination for the output would be different. That's not very hard to change. The concepts needed to accomplish it are taught in basic and intermediate level programming courses.Draech said:
I registered just to post this:
What this means is that you are right, it is IMMENSELY complicated to design this system, and I doubt anyone here could do it... BUT BLIZZARD ALREADY HAS!!! They just decided to shit on their fan base, because the pre-orders alone more than covered all the costs that D3 has and likely will accrue.
God... Really, no one else here has played D2 competitively on the closed battle.net servers? Really? You guys don't deserve to discuss whether or not D3 is a disappointment to the fans if you've never played the previous games, clearly you aren't a fan...
EDIT: Proof
oes the ladder offer anything beyond a more stable economy?
Yes there are some items that can only be obtained with a ladder character such as some class specific and elite uniques. There are also some ladder-only rune words as well as cube recipes that can only be created by a ladder character. While these items can eventually make their way to non-ladder after a ladder reset, they can only be initially found or created by using a ladder character.(http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/basics/charactertypes.shtml)
THAT IS NOT WHAT DIABLO 2 WAS! I guess no one here ever actually played Diablo 2 other than as a circle jerk with their friends, but for those of us who have participated in ladder matches, and topped the charts, D2 had Single-player(offline), and then OPEN Battle.net and CLOSED Battle.net(Online), and they even had officially tracked and Blizzard sponsored Ladder rankings, which often times had vastly different loot table from the current single-player and open battle.net version of the game. Usually the next patch would allow access to these items single-player and in open battle.net, but in the CLOSED battle.net online competitive environment there was no way to get these items, or dupe these items, as they were stored server side, and were not available otherwise, and your characters on the closed servers were stored server side.TomLikesGuitar said:
What this means is that you are right, it is IMMENSELY complicated to design this system, and I doubt anyone here could do it... BUT BLIZZARD ALREADY HAS!!! They just decided to shit on their fan base, because the pre-orders alone more than covered all the costs that D3 has and likely will accrue.
God... Really, no one else here has played D2 competitively on the closed battle.net servers? Really? You guys don't deserve to discuss whether or not D3 is a disappointment to the fans if you've never played the previous games, clearly you aren't a fan...
EDIT: Proof
oes the ladder offer anything beyond a more stable economy?Yes there are some items that can only be obtained with a ladder character such as some class specific and elite uniques. There are also some ladder-only rune words as well as cube recipes that can only be created by a ladder character. While these items can eventually make their way to non-ladder after a ladder reset, they can only be initially found or created by using a ladder character.(http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/basics/charactertypes.shtml)
How? Can you argue with anything at all that I said? No, except for my unrelated opinion that people who quote how broken D2 was need to actually play the game if they are going to say stupid crap... And I never said I was a true-fan... I'm not really I never played Diablo, and while I got into D2 alot, I haven't bought D3 either... all the release of D3 did for me was make me create a new ladder character on may 2nd when they reset the D2 ladders... If you think I have a "true-fan" attitude, then it just goes to show how little knowledge anyone else has displayed about what is and is not possible in both a Diablo game, and in programming in general.Matthew94 said:
As far as I've ever seen and know(again far beyond my abilities and knowledge on how this is done) the items, exclusive to ladder characters and the closed servers they were on, were stored server side, as well as the characters themselves. So like any MMO you couldn't load your character save into an editor and add items... You couldn't dupe items because you didn't have a back up, and as you can see on the site, ladder matches didn't start until 1.11, by which time servers were far too fast to allow you to "trick" them into thinking that you still had an item in your inventory that you dropped... Unless you can provide proof that a ladder match was ever compromised, I've NEVER seen or heard of it, and they just started a new round on may 2nd, so people are still participating in them...Draech said:
As I understand it, the ladder matches had a system in place where if the same item with the same UID existed on the same server(a duped item) one of them would disappear.Draech said:
As to my terminology, you're right, I apologize, I for whatever reason thought that the ladder characters were on seperate servers from the other online only characters... I think I confused an open multiplayer game with a battle.net multiplayer game... As I've said, I don't claim to be the world's biggest diablo fan, or even diablo 2 fan, but Blizzard has a system that could atleast be improved that would eliminate duping, that doesn't involve removing singleplayer as singleplayer has diablo 2 has nothing at all to do with atleast a few diablo 2 items, runes, and runewords...
Looking into it, the UID system was called warden, and I guess you are right, I never really looked for it, but you apparently can still dupe even in the modern D2, so says the internet, but I couldn't find a method that would get past the latency auto-disconnect and the Warden system, and as I've never actually encountered any duping, I think it isn't as possible or probable as maybe some of the early adopters of D2, who quit before improvements were made, fear it could be. Still exclusively online doesn't seem to have solved the issue in D2, therefore D3 could possibly still be duped, and if it can't be duped, then however they stopped duping in D3 has nothing to do with no offline single player.Draech said:
Edit: Ah, sorry, seems I repeated what you said, as you said the current system isn't bullet proof, didn't catch that until the second read through...
I could just as easily say that "Diablo has never been and online game, ever. It's always been a single player game which can be played with friends." it doesn't invalidate your opinion, just as you saying the inverse doesn't invalidate mine.nu1mlock said:
Which is why I said that I see it as a single player game, in fact, plenty of people see it that way. I don't know anyone who played multiplayer on Diablo, and the people I know who played multiplayer on Diablo 2, spent more time on the single player.
Regardless, it wasn't one or the other, it was both; but now it's only one. I don't want the one it's become.
You assert that the code running a Diablo 3 server is so dependent on the environment of Bnet and it would take at least "six months of work" to modify it to run outside of that environment. This is like saying, if I took the motor out of my fan it won't work anymore.Draech said:
So what exactly is the mechanism preventing an application independent of BNet from say, parsing a save (assume, for argument's sake, you could just download your save file and plop it somewhere to do with as you please) or generating one? Is the save encrypted? The local version could simply skip that step. Is the D3 daemon itself unable to read the saves, does the BNet daemon parse the save and then pass data over to the D3 daemon? That would be truly silly. Dungeon and loot randomization wouldn't work without BNet? Why? This is silly. Even Microsoft Windows is less monolithic than you're implying BNet to be.
You know, I had planned for this huge reply to your post, dividing it and answering it part by part. But no, you're one of those I thoroughly despise, you're one of those that's helping ruining a business I've been a member of for 24 damn years!
Your entire post is pretty much. "Well, it's not that good...But hey, it's Blizzard and they're awesome!"
No company deserves that sort of devotion, especially not the lazy ass bastards at Blizzard. Lore you say? Yeah, good f****** luck with that considering it's been rewritten up the ***.
Graphics not shite? Well, no, but on par with a game six years it's senior. Reminds me of when I got WC3 back in the day, I could play hell of a lot newer and and have less issues with it over the badly made WC3. Blizzard just doesn't give a **** about anything beyond making their damn cut-scenes.
And you know what? They'll succeed, they'll keep on churning out decent games at 8 year intervals and the fans will gobble it up. No matter how much stupid **** they implement, Blizzard fanboys are the Nintendo fanboys of the PC industry.
Your entire post is pretty much. "Well, it's not that good...But hey, it's Blizzard and they're awesome!"
No company deserves that sort of devotion, especially not the lazy ass bastards at Blizzard. Lore you say? Yeah, good f****** luck with that considering it's been rewritten up the ***.
Graphics not shite? Well, no, but on par with a game six years it's senior. Reminds me of when I got WC3 back in the day, I could play hell of a lot newer and and have less issues with it over the badly made WC3. Blizzard just doesn't give a **** about anything beyond making their damn cut-scenes.
And you know what? They'll succeed, they'll keep on churning out decent games at 8 year intervals and the fans will gobble it up. No matter how much stupid **** they implement, Blizzard fanboys are the Nintendo fanboys of the PC industry.
No crack that I know of so guess not. Actually I stand corrected it seems, Skidrow has released a working offline SP crack to play the game. I stand corrected in 5 seconds, fake.Triforceformer said:
Sun Sets, Moon Rises, Cows eat Grass, Pirates get around DRM.
You have to bare in mind Tripple A companies might have 20 people max doing the DRM protection.... How many pirates trying to get around it?
The internet is more like a nation nowadays, like any nation it has its criminals, unfortunately it consists of 99% of the civilised world. Pirates outnumber DRM guys.
You have to bare in mind Tripple A companies might have 20 people max doing the DRM protection.... How many pirates trying to get around it?
The internet is more like a nation nowadays, like any nation it has its criminals, unfortunately it consists of 99% of the civilised world. Pirates outnumber DRM guys.
Let me just make my position real simple:Draech said:
The account system's irrelevant and unnecessary locally. It's all shit in a database. All you need is to read and write to it, and that's not that difficult (especially not for programmers of Blizzard's caliber, Bethesda OTOH...
)If you concede that the important shit of character and world generation could easily run locally, I see no reason for it to have been easily possible for single player to be offline. Hell it'd be simpler as there'd be less hoops for the game to jump through to store and retrieve data. Bear in mind also, I'm advocating complete separation of single and multiplayer--no mixing of characters, no AH, no online features at all for single player. Under these conditions there's no need to talk to Bnet.