Sooo.... What is it about Metroid Other M?
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Currently, as I understand it, the argument Internet Kraken is presenting is that The Other M is less than brilliantly written, and that MovieBob's statement to the converse is in question for the reason that he is biased towards 2D side-scrolling Nintendo games. It's only fallacious if you attempt to fault someone's argument by pointing out a poor quality in them that doesn't pertain to their reasoning or argument.Sutter Cane said:
In this case, Kraken points out that MovieBob has previously shown traits that link with undue bias which, while totally allowed, throws into question the possibility of his view being an objective one 'worth listening to' in defence of the game, as his bias might cause him to overlook poor writing in favour of the rose-tint of his glasses.
So far as I understand.
Yeah the other parts of his argument aren't bad IMHO it's just the "He's biased so therefore anthing he says must be wrong" implication that seems to be given by his wording, his actual quote beingSephychu said:
While Internet Kraken says that he is more articulate than other fanboys, he never actually brings up or refutes any of the arguments Bob brings up in the video, choosing to find them not even worthy of bringing up to to actual or perceived bias and goes on to argue for this bias instead of against the points bo makes, which is a bit of a red herring IMHO. If he had actually refuted or tried to refute bob's argument about how the different characterization of Samus didn't ruin her character, i wouldn't have said he committed a fallacy, but since he didn't (in fact the only thing from bob's video he brings up is that he didn't care that much for the prime series because he's not an FPS fan) I did.
I feel like I should probably explain why I find Movie Bob to be so biased and thus an bad source on things like this. Really atching any of his videos that involve Nintendo or games he hates (Halo) will show you his bias, but I feel that the best way to understand is to watch this;Sephychu said:
I mean really, the man is a massive Nintendo fanboy. And there isn't anything wrong with that so long as you realize that it makes you horribly biased, and thus you should probably keep your mouth shut. Which is what Movie Bob should have done with Other M, but instead he had to spout his nonsense because he couldn't bear to see everyone beating up on his beloved 2D sidescroller.
What exactly was wrong with that video, he provides an explanation of common fanboy behavior, and even takes a few cracks at the nintendo fanboy crowd, and he always makes sure to back up his opinions with reasons, and makes arguments instead of just spewing rhetoric like many on the internet. I think that he makes some good points in the Other M video that are worth addressing even if you disagree with them. Just like I incerdibly disagree with bob's "Worst Person" i still think he brings up interesting points that are worth discussing, not just dismissing them without coming up with actual reasons why his points are wrongInternet Kraken said:
Because it shows he how subscribes to that mindset, and how painfully obvious his bias is as a result. If you obsess over the "good old days" as much as he does than of course you're going to like Other M just because it returns to classic Metroid format. However you're also going to ignore the obvious problems with the game as a result, so you should probably just keep your mouth shut. Of course Movie Bob thinks his opinion is golden and rants about how wonderful the game is and how we're all just overreacting.Sutter Cane said:
I don't consider Movie Bob to be a credible source, so I'm not going to waste my time watching his video again. Just like I'm sure you didn't read everything that psychiatrist said and instead dismissed him solely because he claimed videos game are like cocaine. When someone says something horribly stupid like that it's perfectly acceptable to not treat them as a valid source, which is what I do with Movie Bob.
But if you really think he raises good points then you should restate them here. I'm not wasting my time watching the rantings of a fanboy again.
Japan enforcing its societal views on an audience that SHOULD know that said views are contrived and chauvinistic.
Japan having done this for years via other games and its storytelling (read: anime).
People continuing to lap it up like it's fountain of youth water.
Japan having done this for years via other games and its storytelling (read: anime).
People continuing to lap it up like it's fountain of youth water.
I see both sides to what Metroid: Other M did to Samus
Bad:
-They made a character who appeared strong and confident into someone who's fragile and mother-like (towards a metroid that she found hatched from an egg and gave to science)
-They made her get bossed around by a male general to the point where she only uses power ups only on his command, not only is that weak but it makes both Samus and the General complete idiots.
Good:
-It's nice to see some actual plot development and continuity in a game that barely had that since Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion.
-They gave Samus a third-dimension...and people think this is an entirely bad thing?
Other than that it looked like a fun third-person shooter with a clever way to change into first person, like it's a mix of the old Metroid games with Metroid Prime.
Bad:
-They made a character who appeared strong and confident into someone who's fragile and mother-like (towards a metroid that she found hatched from an egg and gave to science)
-They made her get bossed around by a male general to the point where she only uses power ups only on his command, not only is that weak but it makes both Samus and the General complete idiots.
Good:
-It's nice to see some actual plot development and continuity in a game that barely had that since Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion.
-They gave Samus a third-dimension...and people think this is an entirely bad thing?
Other than that it looked like a fun third-person shooter with a clever way to change into first person, like it's a mix of the old Metroid games with Metroid Prime.
Just saw MovieBob's Other M defense. As much as I like MovieBob, I can't agree.
And since I have a huge ego, here's what I posted in said video's comments:
And since I have a huge ego, here's what I posted in said video's comments:
DISCLAIMER: I'm a MovieBob fan and the following should not be seen as nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.
You're using a strawmen here too, Bob. I'll point out one:
You discuss how, due to lack of characterization, we "fill in the blanks" based on what we see: Samus is in a non-revealing suit of powered armor, alone, finding all the gear she needs and defeating giant screen-filling enemies by herself.
However, there are other conclusions to come to other than "this means she rejects femininity, hates men, and must be emotionless" that still lead to grossly disliking the direction Other M decided to take.
To be fair, you're addressing people getting hung up on what Other M decides to flesh out as opposed to what people feel it *should* have fleshed out, and yeah, not every armchair game dev/storyteller knows what's the best way to fill that "should."
But this video reads almost like a blanket dismissal of the criticism Other M has received (including the assertion that its simplistic controls somehow inherently make it elegant, but that's been commented on already). And hey, people who want to play Other M and like it can go right ahead, but if someone asks the question "is it just me, or is Samus's emotional reaction here horribly contrived and slightly chauvinistic?", it shouldn't be immediately assumed that guy wanted Fem-Master Chief.
Slight tangent: the FPS bashing has to stop. Yes, the genre has problems and introduces problems, but it's a complex issue stemming from what FPS games tend to be now vs. what they could be... or were (e.g., original DOOM). And just slamming it wholesale is just as bad as the people you complain about in this very video, the ones who paint Japan as something it isn't (which itself is a complex issue as there are some very sociogender issues in Japan, but I digress).
You're using a strawmen here too, Bob. I'll point out one:
You discuss how, due to lack of characterization, we "fill in the blanks" based on what we see: Samus is in a non-revealing suit of powered armor, alone, finding all the gear she needs and defeating giant screen-filling enemies by herself.
However, there are other conclusions to come to other than "this means she rejects femininity, hates men, and must be emotionless" that still lead to grossly disliking the direction Other M decided to take.
To be fair, you're addressing people getting hung up on what Other M decides to flesh out as opposed to what people feel it *should* have fleshed out, and yeah, not every armchair game dev/storyteller knows what's the best way to fill that "should."
But this video reads almost like a blanket dismissal of the criticism Other M has received (including the assertion that its simplistic controls somehow inherently make it elegant, but that's been commented on already). And hey, people who want to play Other M and like it can go right ahead, but if someone asks the question "is it just me, or is Samus's emotional reaction here horribly contrived and slightly chauvinistic?", it shouldn't be immediately assumed that guy wanted Fem-Master Chief.
Slight tangent: the FPS bashing has to stop. Yes, the genre has problems and introduces problems, but it's a complex issue stemming from what FPS games tend to be now vs. what they could be... or were (e.g., original DOOM). And just slamming it wholesale is just as bad as the people you complain about in this very video, the ones who paint Japan as something it isn't (which itself is a complex issue as there are some very sociogender issues in Japan, but I digress).
Way to make hasty generalizations there about the psychiatrist there. I don't think i read that article, so i don't have an opinion on him as i don't have enough information to form a good one. Also, comparing a psychiatrist to moviebob is a terrible comparison. One was saying something that could be proven or disproved by science, and one is a guy on the internet talking about his subjective opinion on a subject. Also you seem to be dismissing moviebob's arguments purely on the basis of, he has a different opinion on the direction gaming should be going than me. IMHO you're coming off as way more biased than bob right now with all of the insults you have been flinging around in this thread. And yes, Bob does have a bias, but so does EVERYONE ELSE. The fact that he does have a bias does not mean that he cannot make good arguments for his points (which he frequently provides).Internet Kraken said:
Here's another question, would you say that neither theists or atheists should be able to argue for the existence/nonexistence of a god or gods since they would be inherently biased towards their own philosophical opinion?
... Didn't I just said that the whole arguement about game being sexist is delusional?Carlos Alexandre said:
Or did I say that in somewhere else...?
Oh, and great hasty generalization there.
Since Kraken doesn't want to get into specifics over movebobs video(and I understand why) I'll take a stab at something from it that really pissed me off when I watched it(which was a a couple of months ago).
Doesn't bob make the point that the fans who are upset with what M
M did to samus's character are upset because they had wanted her to be an ice queen or a female master-chief and when they saw that the game didn't present her like that they immediately hated it? This really peeved me when I was watching since bob was making an assumption about me with that claim and it simply wasn't true. I won't get too specific into my idea of what samus is so I'll just say that in my mind she was a very strong and heroic woman, someone who would be looked up to by others. Thous are more character traits than personality traits but regardless MM really takes a dump on them.
So that was my take on the game whereas moviebob apparently thought the story was really good and that any previous fans who didn't like it just wanted samus to be an ice-queen who kills shit because it's fun.
In closing, fuck everything moviebob said about other M.
Doesn't bob make the point that the fans who are upset with what M
M did to samus's character are upset because they had wanted her to be an ice queen or a female master-chief and when they saw that the game didn't present her like that they immediately hated it? This really peeved me when I was watching since bob was making an assumption about me with that claim and it simply wasn't true. I won't get too specific into my idea of what samus is so I'll just say that in my mind she was a very strong and heroic woman, someone who would be looked up to by others. Thous are more character traits than personality traits but regardless MM really takes a dump on them.So that was my take on the game whereas moviebob apparently thought the story was really good and that any previous fans who didn't like it just wanted samus to be an ice-queen who kills shit because it's fun.
In closing, fuck everything moviebob said about other M.
MrHero17 said:Since Kraken doesn't want to get into specifics over movebobs video(and I understand why) I'll take a stab at something from it that really pissed me off when I watched it(which was a a couple of months ago).
Doesn't bob make the point that the fans who are upset with what M
So that was my take on the game whereas moviebob apparently thought the story was really good and that any previous fans who didn't like it just wanted samus to be an ice-queen who kills shit because it's fun.
In closing, fuck everything moviebob said about other M.
I thought he was being hyperbolic when he made the ice queen/female master chief comment (although he never actually compared her to master chief) especially since when he brings up samus' assumed stoicism a couple times in the 2nd half of the video he uses much less harsh terms, and that that wasn't the main point of the video (in fact i'm fairly sure that was a one off comment) which i believe was that this new characterization isn't uncalled for as she never had much characterization in the first place, but that's just my perspective. However i would like to thank you for actually addressing the video unlike kraken who just seemed to hurl insults at bob when the video was brought up.
The Prime trilogy is absolutely amazing, especially 3. 3 is by far one of the best Metroid games out there. In the all-for-one package, they implement nice controls with the Wiimote, but also take out a few small things like how in depth the cannons shoot. It's nothing ground-breaking.Azex said:
Personally, you should get it.
I'm under a similar problem. I want the Metroid Prime package, but I already have 1 for the GC and 3 for the Wii, as well as borrowing 2 from a friend. So do I really need it? Or should I just go out and buy 2 somewhere? Crazy.
MovieBob's rebuttal about Other M is the best argument I've seen in favour of Other M, but I still disagree completely.
And really, him calling Metroid Prime 'another first person shooter' is practically a sin in my eyes.
And really, him calling Metroid Prime 'another first person shooter' is practically a sin in my eyes.
The gameplay isn't generally the problem people have with it, the gameplay is solid.
The story/characterization of Samus, on the other hand, are what people have issues with. The story pretty much drops a plot point, although other than that I don't see any major problems (and I realize that's a rather major one). People see Samus as being a WOMAN bowing down to a MAN, when I think it's more that she has a huge respect for Adam. If Adam was a woman, I don't think Samus would act any differently, except she would see him as possibly a "mother figure" instead of a "father figure".
Of course, that's my opinion. People feel that this game raped their childhoods, so they have every right to hate it in that case.
The story/characterization of Samus, on the other hand, are what people have issues with. The story pretty much drops a plot point, although other than that I don't see any major problems (and I realize that's a rather major one). People see Samus as being a WOMAN bowing down to a MAN, when I think it's more that she has a huge respect for Adam. If Adam was a woman, I don't think Samus would act any differently, except she would see him as possibly a "mother figure" instead of a "father figure".
Of course, that's my opinion. People feel that this game raped their childhoods, so they have every right to hate it in that case.