Spanking

[DSK-]

When I was growing up I was smacked very rarely, but I learned from the mistakes and stupid things I did. If I ever got spanked or smacked, it was because I deserved it.

Unfortunately, my parents and I have a great deal of trouble dealing with my younger brother at times. All conventional wisdom goes down the pan when it comes to dealing with him at his worst.

 

[TehCookie]

-snip-

You say you should reward the child for good behavior, what if the child is already happy with what they have and doesn't want anything more?

If you were going to punish/discipline the kid how would you do it effectively? For examples sake let's say the kid will ignore anything you say (kids do that).

In the absence of support, "what ifs" don't amount to much of a counterargument.

You said you didn't like the usage of anecdotes but I was referring to myself anonymously as a child.

Alright as I child I was happy with my computer and my ps2, I never felt like I needed anything more than that so any attempt of reward my parents tried to give me I didn't care about I was content with what I had. When they got fed up with my grades dropping they tried grounding me or taking away my computer, needless to say it all failed. I didn't listen and I didn't obey. If they put me in a corner I'd just walk away. To prevent me from using my computer they locked it with a password and took the power cable and turned off the circuit breaker. It wasn't hard for me to turn it back on find a spare cable and guess the password. Also words didn't have any effect on my, good job and bad job were just words (and to really annoy my parents when they started yelling I would just recite the sticks and stones saying). What would you do with a brat like that?

After a month of this my mom bent me over her lap and spanked me. I quickly learned after that I should listen to her if I wanted to avoid any more pain. To me, that was way more effective than anything else they've tried.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Snip

You know... you keep saying that, but you never stated what, and when you try, you give us a pdf file that all and all, has no idea what its talking about. So what exactly would you use instead of spanking?

It depends on the age of the child.

On a different note, replacing my posts' content with "snip" makes it very difficult for me to follow your replies. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do that.

Well, we need to save space here so things dot get long and overdrawn, but at a certain age, spankings shouldnt be used. BUt a young age, where "kids" equal something less then ten, since ten is around the age of pre teen (at least, I'm going to assume thats what he menas), they need to learn because they dont know yet. So a healthy spank at first, then to say thats the last you'll get is the best. Also, a spanking can be any form of punishment. Physical, psychological, anything.

 

[Koroviev]

Super Duper Snip!.

No, of course not. There is almost always an exception to the rule. That being said, studies have revealed that spanking is a rather ineffective means of discipline. I cannot adjust the weight of your personal experiences as you perceive them, but as it concerns an argument, they are poor support for your point.

Any study done on that matter can be done over and over with different results depending on the children.

How old were the kids? What gender? Did they have behavioral problems before? Only children or siblings? Where did they live? Do their parents have violent histories? Are they wealthy, poor, or middle class? Etc etc.

There can be no definitive study on children and effective methods of discipline.

Don't quote me again with this crap. I'm not going around in circles with you on this.

I agree, no study can be perfectly replicated. A population is a population, however, each sample taken from that population is subject to subtle variations. This is why it is necessary that those conducting research employ careful sampling methods so as to limit the bias of a particular sample.

Well, I'm afraid that I'm about to quote you. However, it is not my intention that you and I dance around in circles.

 

[crudus]

Yes, hitting your kids is a great way to level them out. We just have to remember to also reward the behaviors we want as well as discourage the ones we don't want.

What is your reasoning?

Pain is a great positive punishment(hopefully you aren't using it as a negative reinforcement). For spanking to really have an effect you need to reinforce behaviors you want to increase the frequency of. If your kid does something good like get an A in biology or save a woman from a fire then you need to acknowledge it and reinforce the behavior. If your kid does something bad like break the vase or find daddy's porn stash you need to punish the behavior (hopefully with spanking). Most people just do the latter which makes the attention people give their kids(via spanking) is actually acting as a positive reinforcement to act up for the attention. Another thing is consistency. You want to consistently punish the bad behavior and reward the good behavior. Another concept most people don't get.

 

[Koroviev]

Snip

You know... you keep saying that, but you never stated what, and when you try, you give us a pdf file that all and all, has no idea what its talking about. So what exactly would you use instead of spanking?

It depends on the age of the child.

On a different note, replacing my posts' content with "snip" makes it very difficult for me to follow your replies. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do that.

Well, we need to save space here so things dot get long and overdrawn, but at a certain age, spankings shouldnt be used. BUt a young age, where "kids" equal something less then ten, since ten is around the age of pre teen (at least, I'm going to assume thats what he menas), they need to learn because they dont know yet. So a healthy spank at first, then to say thats the last you'll get is the best. Also, a spanking can be any form of punishment. Physical, psychological, anything.

I do not agree with the assumption that spanking is necessary for children below a certain age. The evidence does not support it.

 

[Koroviev]

Yes, hitting your kids is a great way to level them out. We just have to remember to also reward the behaviors we want as well as discourage the ones we don't want.

What is your reasoning?

Pain is a great positive punishment(hopefully you aren't using it as a negative reinforcement). For spanking to really have an effect you need to reinforce behaviors you want to increase the frequency of. If your kid does something good like get an A in biology or save a woman from a fire then you need to acknowledge it and reinforce the behavior. If your kid does something bad like break the vase or find daddy's porn stash you need to punish the behavior (hopefully with spanking). Most people just do the latter which makes the attention people give their kids(via spanking) is actually acting as a positive reinforcement to act up for the attention. Another thing is consistency. You want to consistently punish the bad behavior and reward the good behavior. Another concept most people don't get.

Why must punishment be used? Why can't negative reinforcement be employed?

Spanking is not considered to be reinforcement. It is a form of punishment.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Snip

You know... you keep saying that, but you never stated what, and when you try, you give us a pdf file that all and all, has no idea what its talking about. So what exactly would you use instead of spanking?

It depends on the age of the child.

On a different note, replacing my posts' content with "snip" makes it very difficult for me to follow your replies. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do that.

Well, we need to save space here so things dot get long and overdrawn, but at a certain age, spankings shouldnt be used. BUt a young age, where "kids" equal something less then ten, since ten is around the age of pre teen (at least, I'm going to assume thats what he menas), they need to learn because they dont know yet. So a healthy spank at first, then to say thats the last you'll get is the best. Also, a spanking can be any form of punishment. Physical, psychological, anything.

I do not agree with the assumption that spanking is necessary for children below a certain age. The evidence does not support it.

Evidence doesnt support that non spanking methods work in practice either. I could tell my cousins they're in time out and they laugh. when i go tell them to grab my belt (because i carry one with studs and leather) that sobers them up quick. And I'm sure most anyone here on this site will vouch a similiar story.

 

[Koroviev]

-snip-

You say you should reward the child for good behavior, what if the child is already happy with what they have and doesn't want anything more?

If you were going to punish/discipline the kid how would you do it effectively? For examples sake let's say the kid will ignore anything you say (kids do that).

In the absence of support, "what ifs" don't amount to much of a counterargument.

You said you didn't like the usage of anecdotes but I was referring to myself anonymously as a child.

Alright as I child I was happy with my computer and my ps2, I never felt like I needed anything more than that so any attempt of reward my parents tried to give me I didn't care about I was content with what I had. When they got fed up with my grades dropping they tried grounding me or taking away my computer, needless to say it all failed. I didn't listen and I didn't obey. If they put me in a corner I'd just walk away. To prevent me from using my computer they locked it with a password and took the power cable and turned off the circuit breaker. It wasn't hard for me to turn it back on find a spare cable and guess the password. Also words didn't have any effect on my, good job and bad job were just words (and to really annoy my parents when they started yelling I would just recite the sticks and stones saying). What would you do with a brat like that?

After a month of this my mom bent me over her lap and spanked me. I quickly learned after that I should listen to her if I wanted to avoid any more pain. To me, that was way more effective than anything else they've tried.

You are correct, I am not a fan of anecdotes as evidence.

 

[crudus]

I agree, no study can be perfectly replicated. A population is a population, however, each sample taken from that population is subject to subtle variations. This is why it is necessary that those conducting research employ careful sampling methods so as to limit the bias of a particular sample.

Well, I'm afraid that I'm about to quote you. However, it is not my intention that you and I dance around in circles.

No, no experiment can be perfectly replicated but to have any weight they need to land within a certain standard deviation. Spanking having an effect on 10% of the kids in one study and 70% in the next means both studies are meaningless. The thing is a lot of psych studies are meaningless because they cannot isolate the variable they are trying to test.

 

[DarthFennec]

Just words. That's how my mom did it.

 

[Koroviev]

Snip

You know... you keep saying that, but you never stated what, and when you try, you give us a pdf file that all and all, has no idea what its talking about. So what exactly would you use instead of spanking?

It depends on the age of the child.

On a different note, replacing my posts' content with "snip" makes it very difficult for me to follow your replies. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do that.

Well, we need to save space here so things dot get long and overdrawn, but at a certain age, spankings shouldnt be used. BUt a young age, where "kids" equal something less then ten, since ten is around the age of pre teen (at least, I'm going to assume thats what he menas), they need to learn because they dont know yet. So a healthy spank at first, then to say thats the last you'll get is the best. Also, a spanking can be any form of punishment. Physical, psychological, anything.

I do not agree with the assumption that spanking is necessary for children below a certain age. The evidence does not support it.

Evidence doesnt support that non spanking methods work in practice either. I could tell my cousins they're in time out and they laugh. when i go tell them to grab my belt (because i carry one with studs and leather) that sobers them up quick. And I'm sure most anyone here on this site will vouch a similiar story.

Your personal experience does not constitute a quality source within the framework of an argument.

 

[Koroviev]

I agree, no study can be perfectly replicated. A population is a population, however, each sample taken from that population is subject to subtle variations. This is why it is necessary that those conducting research employ careful sampling methods so as to limit the bias of a particular sample.

Well, I'm afraid that I'm about to quote you. However, it is not my intention that you and I dance around in circles.

No, no experiment can be perfectly replicated but to have any weight they need to land within a certain standard deviation. Spanking having an effect on 10% of the kids in one study and 70% in the next means both studies are meaningless. The thing is a lot of psych studies are meaningless because they cannot isolate the variable they are trying to test.

No, it does not necessarily follow that both of these hypothetical studies are meaningless. Rather, there is more than one possibility. Could it be that both studies were conducted using questionable methods? Certainly. However, it could also be that only one of the studies employed poor methodology, while the other is indeed valid.

"The thing is a lot of psych studies are meaningless because they cannot isolate the variable they are trying to test."

Where is the support for the above claim?

 

[crudus]

Why must punishment be used? Why can't negative reinforcement be employed?

Spanking is not considered to be reinforcement. It is a form of punishment.

Actually, whether spanking is a punishment or reinforcement depends on how often a child beats spanked. Imagine a child gets spanked at 3pm everyday unless the kid brings home a loaf of bread. The child is being negatively reinforced to bring home bread.

Punishment(with reinforcement) needs to be done because a child may bring home straight A's, but still doesn't know not to punch the cat, for example.

 

[Jumplion]

When I have kids, I plan to just give them the ole stern talking to. My dad has never hit me once, and if he did I'd probably leave the house for a bit. I trust him enough to trust me to trust him not resort to that kind of thing. He gets the job done by shouting at me anyway

However, obviously it would depend on the situation. If my kid, at 13 years old or something, starts getting into drugs or any of that serious things, you'd better believe I'd give him/her a good smacking across the face. I'd hope that I would raise them to know better.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Snip

You know... you keep saying that, but you never stated what, and when you try, you give us a pdf file that all and all, has no idea what its talking about. So what exactly would you use instead of spanking?

It depends on the age of the child.

On a different note, replacing my posts' content with "snip" makes it very difficult for me to follow your replies. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do that.

Well, we need to save space here so things dot get long and overdrawn, but at a certain age, spankings shouldnt be used. BUt a young age, where "kids" equal something less then ten, since ten is around the age of pre teen (at least, I'm going to assume thats what he menas), they need to learn because they dont know yet. So a healthy spank at first, then to say thats the last you'll get is the best. Also, a spanking can be any form of punishment. Physical, psychological, anything.

I do not agree with the assumption that spanking is necessary for children below a certain age. The evidence does not support it.

Evidence doesnt support that non spanking methods work in practice either. I could tell my cousins they're in time out and they laugh. when i go tell them to grab my belt (because i carry one with studs and leather) that sobers them up quick. And I'm sure most anyone here on this site will vouch a similiar story.

Your personal experience does not constitute a quality source within the framework of an argument.

But it does. This is opinion, and personal experience is everything. NO one here really ever quotes psychological studies for their point, because no one cares for them. the fact is, psych studies in themselves are useless, since they so rapidly chnage and never really apply to anything when person experience dictates how they will raise someone.

 

[Koroviev]

Why must punishment be used? Why can't negative reinforcement be employed?

Spanking is not considered to be reinforcement. It is a form of punishment.

Actually, whether spanking is a punishment or reinforcement depends on how often a child beats spanked. Imagine a child gets spanked at 3pm everyday unless the kid brings home a loaf of bread. The child is being negatively reinforced to bring home bread.

Punishment(with reinforcement) needs to be done because a child may bring home straight A's, but still doesn't know not to punch the cat, for example.

Do you have evidence to support that claim? To my knowledge, that is still punishment. Establishing a frequency for a specific action does not necessarily change the nature of that action.

 

[Koroviev]

But it does. This is opinion, and personal experience is everything. NO one here really ever quotes psychological studies for their point, because no one cares for them. the fact is, psych studies in themselves are useless, since they so rapidly chnage and never really apply to anything when person experience dictates how they will raise someone.

It may mean a lot to you in forming an opinion, however, that does not change the fact that it is poor support for an opinion.

That most people here are supposedly not interested in supporting their opinions does not make it good practice. If that is your point, then the argument in favor of it is fallacious.

And you are not the first person to make that claim. It remains unsupported, to my knowledge.

 

[crudus]

Why must punishment be used? Why can't negative reinforcement be employed?

Spanking is not considered to be reinforcement. It is a form of punishment.

Actually, whether spanking is a punishment or reinforcement depends on how often a child beats spanked. Imagine a child gets spanked at 3pm everyday unless the kid brings home a loaf of bread. The child is being negatively reinforced to bring home bread.

Punishment(with reinforcement) needs to be done because a child may bring home straight A's, but still doesn't know not to punch the cat, for example.

Do you have evidence to support that claim? To my knowledge, that is still punishment. Establishing a frequency for a specific action does not necessarily change the nature of that action.

In that above example replace "gets spanked" with "does chores". In both examples something unfavorable is being taken away (hence negative) in the hopes to increase the likely hood a behavior is done (reinforcement).

 

[Koroviev]

Why must punishment be used? Why can't negative reinforcement be employed?

Spanking is not considered to be reinforcement. It is a form of punishment.

Actually, whether spanking is a punishment or reinforcement depends on how often a child beats spanked. Imagine a child gets spanked at 3pm everyday unless the kid brings home a loaf of bread. The child is being negatively reinforced to bring home bread.

Punishment(with reinforcement) needs to be done because a child may bring home straight A's, but still doesn't know not to punch the cat, for example.

Do you have evidence to support that claim? To my knowledge, that is still punishment. Establishing a frequency for a specific action does not necessarily change the nature of that action.

In that above example replace "gets spanked" with "does chores". In both examples something unfavorable is being taken away (hence negative) in the hopes to increase the likely hood a behavior is done (reinforcement).

I understand your reasoning. However, in the absence of evidence, I cannot concede that punishment applied with a certain frequency becomes negative reinforcement.