Spawn Camping Marathon Gets Black Ops Players Banned

[Bobzer77]

They aren't punishing you for finding a bad design, they are punishing you for EXPLOITING it to get higher ranks...just because you find a bug, doesn't mean you need to use it.

Yup, I agree with this. Sure, Treyarch needs to do a better job of proofing their designs... but that does not excuse douchebaggery by players. (Any more than Infinity Ward's goof with the Javelin Exploit in CoD4 did.)

People gotta take ownership of their own actions, and that includes the players.

-- Steve

Exploiting is using a bug to do something which is unfair or not allowed under game rules or mechanics.

These players are using the fact that there is a static spawn in the map to amass more kills and points than are usually possible to attain.

Static spawns are not a bug, it is a game mechanic, they are not abusing it, they are taking advantage of it.

It is entirely Treyarch's fault for designing the game mode in such a way that this is possible, not the players, it woulds also pretty much a breach of ToS or consumer rights to ban people for no reason (what has apparently happened) but I doubt it is so in this case with Activision having written up the ToS.

Bottom Line: Not exploiting, players in the right, Treyarch + Activision in the wrong.

 

[Anton P. Nym]

People gotta take ownership of their own actions, and that includes the players.

Exploiting is using a bug to do something which is unfair or not allowed under game rules or mechanics.

These players are using the fact that there is a static spawn in the map to amass more kills and points than are usually possible to attain.

No, they weren't. They were exploiting the ranking system by having one team sandbag (deliberately not play well) in order to give a cheap victory to the other. Static spawns merely made it easier to do so... but sandbagging to boost is just as much cheating (and just as inappropriate) as the boosting itself.

I will also point to my usual argument against "if it's possible it's legit"; no game ever designed makes it impossible for me to clock an opponent over the head with a beer bottle at a LAN and thereby gain a play advantage against him/her, but that does not make this technique acceptable in play.

-- Steve

 

[Kroxile]

this is stupid. its not the player's fault that the devs couldn't think of a better way to spawn characters into their samey same game.

 

[jonnosferatu]

Quit these worthless shooters and play team fortress 2 instead.

Unless Valve have decided to admit their error and get rid of the Medic's Crossbow and HealSaw, I see absolutely no reason to do this.

 

[felixader]

This is NOT a Bug. This is CLEARLY a Design Flaw.

A bug is a mistake in the code or in tech letting you do things that shouldn't be possible, like leaving the map.

But THIS is every piece of the design working like it should be and when THAT enables the players to create this kind of score then it's clearly a DESIGN FLAW. Bad designed, not thougth trough, BAD WORK. ^.^

My thoughts remain the same either way. Just because you know a part of the game is designed badly, doesn't mean you need to use it to further your own goals. Yeah, it's designed badly perhaps, but you can have endless number of games without ever touching that "badly designed" feature, and have the same full experience. All that exploiting it is doing is boosting your rank.

Not only is it unsportsman like to do it in the first place, it's still finding a loophole and using it to the detriment of thousands of others who play the game like it was meant to be played. I don't buy the "It's the developers fault." excuse that people throw around.

Well, but in the End it still is. The same product that makes this exploitation possible is what people bougth with up to 70 bucks. ^-^

To ban them when they use the possibillitys thatb they are given, either trough features or trough bad Design, is quite lazy.

Please don't missunderstand me. I say you are rigth in saying that there are massive amounts of people who don't exploid this and that it's severe unsportsmannlike and unfair.
But fact remeins that they are doing what the game let them do and unöess there is a clear notofication telling them that this is against the rules that the Players had to Sign BEFORE they bougth the gam,e i see it as lazy and possibly even illegal to outrigth ban them..

 

[Danpascooch]

SNIP

all that was based on ur theory that shooters have to be tactical based.

the way i see it, the more tactical u make a game, the less FUN it becomes, therefore the less people will play it.

look at games like, GRAW and rainbow six and OF: dragon rising, all tactical games and yet no where near as popular as CoD, good games yes, but fun, NO.

people these days like to show off how rambo they can be (excuse the cliche).

even other games with multiplayer that arent shooters, like AC: brotherhood, people run around like idiots instead of playing the waiting game, its just more fun.

just to let u know, i agree with most of what you said, but saying CoD isnt fun is just sore loser talk.

Not necessarily "tactics" but simple things that matter, in Halo you usually do a better job if you stick with someone, and in BC2 (or Halo) I would even consider getting into the gunner seat of a vehicle with a team mate driving to qualify as teamwork/tactics the point is you get NONE of that in CoD

 

[Danpascooch]

The core mechanics of CoD online are so broken, I just find this funny.

I have to agree with that. There is very little teamwork or collaborating which is frustrating in a "team" based mission. Not only that, (ok, almost) every player has this lone wolf attitude which makes any squad tactics impossible. I know I sound like I'm just trolling but I'm serious. Which is why I prefer css over cod. More situations calling for multiple person tactics and better teamwork. They actually have strategies. Sorry if I offended any fanboys.

I don't think the "lone wolf" attitude is the players' fault though, after all, the game actively encourages you to work completely alone (through the mechanics in my original post) in a team based match, I think it's a design problem not an attitude problem.

 

[Danpascooch]

snip

I have two sides on this:
1) Based on my experience, many of these issues actually being a problem indicate that you aren't very good at the skill side of the game by your own non-CoD definition - especially the "don't get me started on drop shots" comment. Go watch some commentaries from guys like MrDunkus, jx23, or interactivetodd on YouTube if you want to see people who are legitimately good*.
*Knocking campers with the last bit, not you.

2) That said, most of your criticisms do have some merit and I agree that the game is essentially broken - the "out-of-body" killstreaks especially.

Actually, third side:
3) You forgot the part where there are a total of ~3 distinct usable SMGs, ~3 distinct usable Assault rifles, and "essentially" 2 distinct usable sniper rifles ("essentially" used here because sniping in BlOps is a HILARIOUSLY stupid tactic) - not to mention the fact that 2 of the 3 usable shotguns are only viable because they can be silenced or dual-wielded.

I'm actually pretty good at CoD, My K/D ratio is well above 1.0 (which is another thing that bugs me, I wish they didn't even calculate that, my natural OCD prevents me from having fun for the sake of that little number)

I'm not annoyed at drop-shooting so much because it's cheap, but that tons of people do it. You see no teamwork or tactics in that game, but you see idiots leap-shooting like 50 times a match, seriously? This is supposed to be the best FPS ever based on sales so I would expect it to be well designed enough that a huge portion of the player base wouldn't consider "Diving toward an enemy while spraying them with an automatic weapon 5 times in a row" to be a viable strategy.

As for your third point, you are completely right, but I fail to see how it is at all relevant to my original post, I never said anything about weapon variety.

 

[Danpascooch]

snip

you sir are my hero

im glad that unlike many companies treyarch cares about how their game functions

and to the people who say they could patch this......what? patch spawn camping? are you high, how would one go about doing that?

Oh it's easy, you just patch a new attitude into each player, and rebuild every single map so that dynamic spawn locations don't destroy the flow of the game........wait

 

[Asehujiko]

HAHAHAHAHAHA! sweet. I love when spawn campers suck or this happens.

You love it when somebody makes a video that basically says: "this shit is broken and here is a perfect demonstration of what happens because of that" and then an angry community mismanager decides to shoot the messenger instead of forwarding it to the studio he's attached to?

The people doing it should have sent it to them instead. Not everything youtube is looked at by everyone daily.

And neither do these people have any reliable way of contacting anybody at treyarch beyond "put it somewhere public and hope it gets noticed". Olin flat out stated he doesn't listen to anybody who thinks there is something wrong with his game.

 

[Danpascooch]

Alright, let's see if I can do this without starting a flamewar, I think I can manage it. *cracks knuckles*

Shooters are generally about skill and team tactics, that is what elevates one team over another in an online match. Here are those two elements, and how the core mechanics of CoD violate and destroy each of them.

Skill:

Basic Definition:

The ability to properly dispatch an opponent due to effective aiming and use of environment (cover and the like) in an even fight.

Call of Duty Definition:

The ability to wait in one spot until an enemy walks by, and then kill him solely because you sat in one spot and happened to see him first.

Violating Mechanics:

1.) Low Health (or high damage)

The extremely low health in CoD means that when two opponents are within range of eachother, and overwhelming amount of time the victor is the one who sees his opponent first, not the one with the most skill.

2.) Prone

Prone allows a player to lie down and almost always be the first person to see an opponent when the opponent enters the room, and don't even get me started on "drop shooting"

3.) Static Spawn

Besides the obvious problems shown in the video (did you see the part where he literally stood behind them and stabbed each one as they appeared?) Static spawning means that you can reliably predict which hallway/room/alley the enemy players will funnel through, leading to camping spots that take advantage of the mechanics listed above to remove skill from the game

4.) Kill Streaks

Players are awarded for getting a number of kills without dying, which discourages them from taking any sort of calculated risk or put their life in danger for the good of the team, this heavily encourages camping

Conclusion:

I have no real issue with any of these mechanics alone, the problem is that they all work together in synchronization to create a game where the victor is not determined by skill but by camping and waiting for extended periods of time

Tactics

Definition: Increasing effectiveness through the use of proper team communication, strategies, and grouping into squads

Violating Mechanics:

1.) The four mechanics above and the camping atmosphere they create

Grouping is suicide in CoD because the high damage and advantage of finding a camping spot means that a single camper with a rifle can kill three or more people almost as quickly as one, as long as he has a decent camping spot. (as in, any window overlooking a linear path)

2.) Static Spawns & Frequent Deaths

The fact that in CoD players are constantly either A) In a camping spot (in which case another teammate isn't likely to heavily increase effectiveness as detailed above) or B) constantly dying and teleporting back to one side of the map. Makes it nearly impossible to work as a group.

Conclusion:

Given the diminishing returns on camping, and the fact that players are constantly separated by being whisked away on respawn with startling frequency makes it nearly impossible to execute any meaningful teamwork.

Overall Argument

A shooter is not about finding spots to camp on a map, but that's what Call of Duty is all about, leading me to the conclusion that the core mechanics listed above have broken the fundamental aspects of what makes a shooter enjoyable.

'Skill' in games is irrelevant and dumb.
You do realise this is a video game your talking about right?

Anyways this is still pretty damn funny.

Alright then, let me present a scenario and ask a question.

Two teams face off in a game of CoD just like any other of the millions of matches played every day.

What should be the factor that decides which team wins? One team will win, one will lose, and something about the teams made one be declared the winner and one the loser.

If it's not skill/experience than the only other factor I can think of is luck. Would you rather the outcome of an online match be completely random? What would be the point? I understand the fun comes out of playing it and not winning/losing, but if there was no element of skill all kills and deaths and everything would be completely random, you might as well be watching a really crappy movie instead of playing a game.

Your argument seems to be against online matches as a whole, not against CoD or my post.

Also, what do you mean "just a video game" do you think there is no such thing as skill in videogames? I didn't say the outcome of any match in any game is particularly important but skill sure as hell factors in to just about any game anyone plays. Get one of your relatives who has never played an FPS before to try CoD or Halo and you'll clearly see that they lack skill due to lack of experience.

 

[Bobzer77]

People gotta take ownership of their own actions, and that includes the players.

Exploiting is using a bug to do something which is unfair or not allowed under game rules or mechanics.

These players are using the fact that there is a static spawn in the map to amass more kills and points than are usually possible to attain.

No, they weren't. They were exploiting the ranking system by having one team sandbag (deliberately not play well) in order to give a cheap victory to the other. Static spawns merely made it easier to do so... but sandbagging to boost is just as much cheating (and just as inappropriate) as the boosting itself.

I will also point to my usual argument against "if it's possible it's legit"; no game ever designed makes it impossible for me to clock an opponent over the head with a beer bottle at a LAN and thereby gain a play advantage against him/her, but that does not make this technique acceptable in play.

-- Steve

The fact that is not acceptable irl trumps whether or not it it's cheating in-game.

There is no evidence in the story to say that the other team was not playing as well as they could apart from the Treyarch PR who could say whatever he wanted for all anyone would believe. The fact of the matter is that this team knew where the enemy would be spawning and killed them as they spawned.

It's Treyarch's fault not theirs that this is allowed. If they want to make it against the rules there should be mechanics in-game that prevent it, banning people for doing something completely legal in terms of actual cheats or exploits (as it is neither) is not the way to solve the problem.

 

[Danpascooch]

The core mechanics of CoD online are so broken, I just find this funny

EDIT: To those who want to argue with me about why I think the core mechanics are broken, here is a copy of a post I made detailing my argument, I don't think CoD is stupid or hopeless, but I do think it needs major reform immediately, I have no intent to start an argument or flame-war, I am merely sharing my opinion that is relevant to this topic:

Alright, let's see if I can do this without starting a flamewar, I think I can manage it. *cracks knuckles*

-SNIP *WISE WORDS* SNIP-

A shooter is not about finding spots to camp on a map, but that's what Call of Duty is all about, leading me to the conclusion that the core mechanics listed above have broken the fundamental aspects of what makes a shooter enjoyable.

Thank you for putting into words WHY I dislike CoD. It just doesn't feel fun to me, and I just could not put into words why, until now. Thanks.

I can barely keep up with the quotes for and against, but thanks.

Also I am totally stealing that picture for forum use.

 

[AnAngryMoose]

Personally, I see two solutions. One is good ol' 'few seconds of invulnerability' upon spawning or what Black Hawk: Tango Down does, which has a dedicating spawn area guarded by indestructable sentry turrets placed in such a way that spawn-camping is impossible.

 

[subtlefuge]

Soooo, they hire people to spend months attempting to break their game in any way possible, but if you pay for their game, then employ a legitimate strategy based on an intentional design feature, then you get banned and reset?

I can't imagine what they will find to be cheating next.

 

[standokan]

That's just BRILLIANT

 

[JudgeRicand]

Excuse the late reaction, this article just caught my attention.

Oh wah, boo hoo, someone is exploiting weaknesses to win. I thought that was a good thing?
I say if you have learned the pattern of where they respawn and use that to your advantage, who's to stop you? It's a tactic. That works. And because it's efficient, it's no good. I don't understand why people are so but hurt.

Of course, this is coming from someone who abstains from most FPSes simply because of the ragers that get mad at efficiency like this. I don't think this is cheating or hacking or wrong in anyway, I just think they have a system that works. Of course, I'm sure there are many of you (like my roommate) that oppose my pro camping stance. More power to you, it's your right to have an opinion (unless you live in a oppressive regime, in which case my apologies). But don't try to tell me I'm wrong because my opinion is different.

 

[jawakiller]

The core mechanics of CoD online are so broken, I just find this funny.

I have to agree with that. There is very little teamwork or collaborating which is frustrating in a "team" based mission. Not only that, (ok, almost) every player has this lone wolf attitude which makes any squad tactics impossible. I know I sound like I'm just trolling but I'm serious. Which is why I prefer css over cod. More situations calling for multiple person tactics and better teamwork. They actually have strategies. Sorry if I offended any fanboys.

I don't think the "lone wolf" attitude is the players' fault though, after all, the game actively encourages you to work completely alone (through the mechanics in my original post) in a team based match, I think it's a design problem not an attitude problem.

I guess that makes sense. But even when there is an opportunity to use tactics it is hard to convince teammates to try using them.

 

[Asehujiko]

HAHAHAHAHAHA! sweet. I love when spawn campers suck or this happens.

You love it when somebody makes a video that basically says: "this shit is broken and here is a perfect demonstration of what happens because of that" and then an angry community mismanager decides to shoot the messenger instead of forwarding it to the studio he's attached to?

The people doing it should have sent it to them instead. Not everything youtube is looked at by everyone daily.

And neither do these people have any reliable way of contacting anybody at treyarch beyond "put it somewhere public and hope it gets noticed". Olin flat out stated he doesn't listen to anybody who thinks there is something wrong with his game.

then he's a douche. All i know is that this was on youtube and it could have never been posted on treyarch forums. As for the guys doing it they were the ones doing it and deserve punishment. As the guy who put the video online says he isn't doing it but he wanted to show that this could happen. So yeas. They should be punished for exploiting it since they didn't make this video to show how easy it is to exploit the game.

Treyarch doesn't read their forums, posting it there would be a moot point. And the video linked here is not the original one. The players in that match DID create the video, the guy here just copied theirs, talked over it and got more viewers simply by virtue of being noticed first by news outlets. Then treyarch took down the original one and banned all involved simply because it's bad press for the game.

Again, you haven't explained how the fuck you got the idea that it's somehow a good thing that somebody who demonstrates a flaw in your product deserves any punishment at all. They didn't exploit to gain ranks(that's what undetectable and very common rack hacks are for), they did it to show problems with the game, hence the video.

 

[jonnosferatu]

I'm actually pretty good at CoD, My K/D ratio is well above 1.0 (which is another thing that bugs me, I wish they didn't even calculate that, my natural OCD prevents me from having fun for the sake of that little number)

I'm not annoyed at drop-shooting so much because it's cheap, but that tons of people do it. You see no teamwork or tactics in that game, but you see idiots leap-shooting like 50 times a match, seriously? This is supposed to be the best FPS ever based on sales so I would expect it to be well designed enough that a huge portion of the player base wouldn't consider "Diving toward an enemy while spraying them with an automatic weapon 5 times in a row" to be a viable strategy.

As for your third point, you are completely right, but I fail to see how it is at all relevant to my original post, I never said anything about weapon variety.

I've never actually encountered any leap-shooting (at least, not frequently enough for it to be memorable). Drop-shooting I've seen (and done), but I consider that one a skill associated with the game more than a cheap tactic because it does have drawbacks (higher headshot risk, reduced ability to handle attacks from the side, etc.). I've died from doing it accidentally very frequently.

I wasn't really intending it to be relevant to the tactics/skill side of things - it's just another of the issues that screws up the system. Claymores having absolutely no backward damage is another one that annoys the shit out of me.

...still, overall, I enjoy playing the game. I'd enjoy it a lot more if some of the design decisions were a tad more intelligent, but it's still fun for me (right now, anyway - a few months back I'd've said the same about TF2, though that one lost appeal because of the medic's new stuff than for any particular gameplay flaws).