Speed Runner Beats Ocarina of Time in Less Than 19 Minutes

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

At the rate this thread is going, we're going to end up on Cracked again. Unexpectedly controversial topics two!

Makes me wonder how these people would react to the yearly Awesome Games Done Quick events really, seeing as how apparently speed runners should adhere to these so called rules I've never heard of to keep the run "in the spirit of the game."
Yes, I don't mind if people dismiss this as bearing the game because that's semantics, but with how quick people just throw it off as "oh it shouldn't count because it's not in the spirit of the game" is rather saddening if you ask me.

Maybe if these "so called rules" of Speed running that "none of the reset of us knows" were delineated in the Article?

Since now we are approaching the time where commenters have not read the full discussion
I am calling the Discussion dead. RJ, DrOswald, Gxas, delightful conversing with you Old Chaps.

And Sir Bryghtside: I found this to be a very civil discussion between people who had good points to make, and made them clearly and Rationally. No where in here was any hatred, or Name calling. Gxas almost sort of nudged at Hinting at an Insult, but that was it. And I doubt that it was meant to be a "you are dumb" comment. And the One comment I made which could Very easily be call mean, I immediately recognized, and further apologized for AND clarified the meaning.

What the Actual Fuck are you talking about XD ?


[edit] Gxas, It's cool guy. I appologize if I got excited about the Stupid thing. Still enjoyed our discussion

 

[Gxas]

I am calling the Discussion dead.

But who gets to say that the thread is dead when we skipped about 90% of it through civil discussion on the internet!? WHAT ABOUT THE PREDEFINED, UNWRITTEN RULES!?

There has to have been glitch abuse... In no way does the internet have discussions without massive amounts of flame and butthurt.

 

[RJ 17]

At the rate this thread is going, we're going to end up on Cracked again. Unexpectedly controversial topics two!

Makes me wonder how these people would react to the yearly Awesome Games Done Quick events really, seeing as how apparently speed runners should adhere to these so called rules I've never heard of to keep the run "in the spirit of the game."
Yes, I don't mind if people dismiss this as bearing the game because that's semantics, but with how quick people just throw it off as "oh it shouldn't count because it's not in the spirit of the game" is rather saddening if you ask me.

Just to be clear - and as I've expressed to others as well - I'm not saying that they have to adhere to my definition of the rules to be valid. It's their hobby, let them play by whatever rules they want. All I've said was that I don't find it to be impressive.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

I am calling the Discussion dead.

But who gets to say that the thread is dead when we skipped about 90% of it through civil discussion on the internet!? WHAT ABOUT THE PREDEFINED, UNWRITTEN RULES!?

There has to have been glitch abuse... In no way does the internet have discussions without massive amounts of flame and butthurt.

/ LOLs, wipes away a tear. Has a slow clap.


Well played sir!

 

[-Dragmire-]

-snip-

another for the 'it doesn't count team!'

i get that it is impressive, but it still isn't the full game. seeing as people as quoting the olympic races here, this is the equivalent of creating a teleporter, teleporting right next to the end, then claiming you're the fastest runner. if everybody has a teleporter, then fine, you can have a teleport race, but the real race is being run by people not skipping 90% of the track...

Go Cosmo go! =D
I'm happy for him, I watch his videos on youtube sometimes, and he pretty much seems like the nicest guy ever.

...Which is why I'm kind of sad to see so many people here treating his achievement like some kind of affront to the spirit of gaming...

credit where credit is due, it is impressive and to do it takes a skill i will never have. but i take issue with claims that he beat the game, when the majority wasn't beaten, but skipped. he may as well of entered a passcode for the last level, and somehow that is counted as the full game (i am aware passcodes don't work for this particular game, but you get the idea).

the guy is good, and i wouldn't call it an affront to the spirit of gaming at all, but in my eyes the claim is exaggerated somewhat (although not necessarily by him)

Do you think that using the warp whistle in Super Mario 3 is cheating because it allows people to skip content?

Does skipping cutscenes for the purposes of a speed run count as cheating since you're skipping content?

Also, your hypothetical olympic track designers were the ones who made the teleportation device, not the people who used it.

Edit: I don't really have a motivation behind this or real point to make, I'm just curious if you hold these examples at a different standard.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

["Do you think that using the warp whistle in Super Mario 3 is cheating because it allows people to skip content?

Does skipping cutscenes for the purposes of a speed run count as cheating since you're skipping content?

Also, your hypothetical olympic track designers were the ones who made the teleportation device, not the people who used it."] Dragmire


Exactly what I mean. Go and read the rest of the Posts. The Whistle has been covered. Cutscene skipping is legit since its a programmed In game Mechanic, as per previously Discussed.
And the Teleporter in question would be a Personal Teleportation Device" not an on-track teleporter. Or if It makes you happier, the "Dimension Door" Spell. What was meant is that only 1 person has a means to skip the race, thereby Cheating. I think my wording was pretty clear.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

To the best of my knowledge, where Speedrunning is concerned there is one main rule and one goal. Among the community who play speedruns, the only goal is to complete the game. That is:

- Start a new game
- Trigger the ending/defeat final boss as swiftly as possible

With that goal in mind, the consensus within the community is that anything within the game is fair game. While outright cheats and external mods are off the table, any mechanic, glitch or exploit in the game can be used. This is the standard among speedrunners and while "exploit free" runs are all well and good, they are in essence simply a variation of the speedrun, essentially setting different parameters for a different challenge.

As long as the rules are consistent, it is a perfectly valid challenge and accomplishment. Keeping in mind that the only goal of a speedrun is to reach the end as fast as possible, whatever happens in the middle is largely irrelevant. I've heard tell of Borderlands 2 speedruns involving multiple weapon and map exploits and learning, practising, rehearsing and planning are a skill in themselves.

I don't play games this way myself, only ever having done it once in the official Speed Run mode of Dragons Dogma. For that, I read a lot of tips and planned my teleport stones ahead of time in my main game. I managed a respectable, if normal time and unlocked the appropriate rewards back in the main game. I later watched a video of someone else's run with an incredible time that left mine for dust. The tricks used weren't even exploits, just very inventive, clever and creative use of mechanics. He used "Shearing Wind" to move anywhere and also placed his stones significantly better than I did, even going so far as to have two not particularly far from each other (whereas I placed only one there, equidistant) to save precious seconds. In particular, the trip with the cart through the canyon, throwing the goblin's body to lure the griffin and the "walk" with the Duke from his study to the treasury were eye openers at just how much thought goes into the fastest runs. In fact, I just found the video.

​

 

[Lizmichi]

No matter what anyone's stance on using glitches is, I'm still impressed at how well timed, and precises his actions were, and I've beaten the game countless times to the point that the game is just a science to me. Finding, using, and mastering glitches is no small feat. I admit I abuse some glitches in games as long as I'm not playing with other people. Some people just enjoy breaking the game, using cheats, and finding glitches; others enjoy playing the game all the way through. It's just personal preference. Hell, some games are meant to be cheated in like Saint's Row, and GTA. Easter Eggs are almost of the same spirit as glitches; hell, I'd almost argue that Easter Eggs are intended glitches, almost. It's something you as a player have to take the time to find for yourself.

So I'd have to say I hold the respect for an any% run, and a 100% run. One takes reflexes, and thinking outside the damn box, and making something for yourself; while the other is playing the game as it was intended by a team of people that worked pretty damn hard.

With that goal in mind, the consensus within the community is that anything within the game is fair game. While outright cheats and external mods are off the table, any mechanic, glitch or exploit in the game can be used. This is the standard among speedrunners and while "exploit free" runs are all well and good, they are in essence simply a variation of the speedrun, essentially setting different parameters for a different challenge.

Thank you kind sir, I couldn't of put it better myself.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

[I guess it wasn't that bad, it was just funny to see this many people (including myself) get so worked up about this you have to admit that this subject was at least ridiculously polarising.} - Bryghtside.

Polarizing YES, ridiculously so? No.

But that is because what some are forgetting is that this became about cheating. A lot of people take issue with Cheating. I was a professional Umpire for little league Baseball as my first Job, so fair play is very important to me. The Issue of being Rewarded for Cheating will always be a hot one. Back to Barry Bonds again XD.

And in the interest of preventing another 30 posts:

In the context of the Speedrun any% category: Cosmo is the Best. The Winner. I will not take away from that. But I maintain that the game was not beaten, and I will not back down about it. He fairly and legitimately Won a contest to see who could cheat the fastest. I am interested to discover that he held the record for NOT cheating, which I think REALLY should have been mentioned in the Article.

 

[suitepee7]

-snip-

i've already clarified my views in a later post (the last post on page 1), and i never used the word cheating. i said it was not fully beating the game, which is what 'beating the game' impies. that sentence should be taken at face value, so in answer to your questions
1) skipping levels would mean skipping content, same as using a passcode system. simply put, you are not playing it. i wouldn't call it cheating, but it still isn't playing through the content.
2) cutscenes aren't gameplay content, but that's just picking hairs for the sake of it.
3) it is an analogy. the point it is trying to demonstrate is that you are skipping out half of the track. sure, you've covered 100 meters, but you haven't ran 100 meters to the finish

like i said, i don't really have much more to add than my previous response, but you did ask different questions so only feels right to answer in some form

 

[Roxas1359]

At the rate this thread is going, we're going to end up on Cracked again. Unexpectedly controversial topics two!

Makes me wonder how these people would react to the yearly Awesome Games Done Quick events really, seeing as how apparently speed runners should adhere to these so called rules I've never heard of to keep the run "in the spirit of the game."
Yes, I don't mind if people dismiss this as bearing the game because that's semantics, but with how quick people just throw it off as "oh it shouldn't count because it's not in the spirit of the game" is rather saddening if you ask me.

Just to be clear - and as I've expressed to others as well - I'm not saying that they have to adhere to my definition of the rules to be valid. It's their hobby, let them play by whatever rules they want. All I've said was that I don't find it to be impressive.

Oh no I'm not talking about you, and if you don't find it impressive the it's fine. I mean others who think that speed runners have to adhere to the same "spirit of the game" as others, because what constitutes one person's way of playing is generally different to others. In terms of this speed run in question, it follows the guidelines of an Any% run (no emulator or external mods, just in-game programming abuse) so for the Any% run it is top. The thing is that some people in this thread seem to think that the only way to do a speed run is to do it both 100% and "in the spirit of the game" which is already subjective.
For me though I've never heard of these so-called rules that if you follow them then you "are playing in the spirit of the game" because I just find that silly since everyone plays their games their own way at the end of the day.

 

[DrOswald]

Snip.

Without watching the video in order to save time, I'm guessing your talking about the piranha plant boss. And that gets back to my point about "what's within the parameters of the game". It's not an exploit to one-shot that guy before he gets made because doing so triggers an in-game event of Kamek flipping out because you killed his buddy before he was ready.

Back to the Poochy level, think back to world 1-2 of the original Mario. I don't consider jumping above the level to skip the entire challenge of the level as being a cheat or a glitch because, at the end, you can get to the secret warp zone by going above the level. As such, it can very easily be argued that you're supposed to be able to do that. Getting so high up on Poochy's level that it removes the entire point/challenge of the level isn't supposed to be possible, there's no reward for getting up there other than bypassing the game's trigger that starts the screen scrolling.

But again, this all stems from me simply believing that these kind of speed-runs aren't that impressive, but as with most things on the internet: that's just my opinion. My personal tastes for speed-runs involve actually completing the minimal requirements for beating a game, not exploiting weaknesses within the game's code. That's why I kept putting so much emphasis on the phrase "what you're supposed to be able to do". You're supposed to be able to travel faster by side-jumping across the world because the side-jump is meant to be a quick-dodge technique and so logically it would be faster than your normal run speed. You're not supposed to be able to pass through a sealed boss' door and end up standing at the end of OOT as child Link. I consider that cheating, and that's why runs like this leave me unimpressed. And again, I understand completely that there are different categories for speed runs, I just don't have a taste for anything other than actually completing the game as it was intended. Does that mean I'd only be impressed by a speed run for 100% completion? Not at all. I just expect (that is, it's in my opinion) that a speed run worthy of holding a record should only count if the person does the bare minimum requirements of a game to play through it from start to finish.

Madmonk brought up Skyrim and that's an easily explainable example. For me to be impressed by a speed-run of Skyrim, I'd assume the player would have to go through the main questline from the start of the game up until Alduin lies dead. I don't expect them to complete all the side missions and guild stories since that's all extra fluff. For OOT, I wouldn't expect a speed-runner to collect every heart piece, kill every golden spider, etc. I'd expect them to just go from one dungeon to the next until Ganondorf lies dead.

But here, again, we run into the problem of interpreting "developer intention", "the spirit of the game", and "what you are supposed to be able to do."

Going back to the idea that going backwards in OOT is faster, your rational for this being ok is that it is a built in mechanic of the game. Did you know that in Metroid Prime you can move faster using a locked on side jump than normal movement? This is known as the "dash jump." It seems clear that if the "run backwards" case of Zelda is ok then the "dash jump" case of Metroid should also be ok. Both are completely intended built in mechanics of the game.

However, by applying the side jump very precisely you are able to reach a certain ledge much earlier than is otherwise possible, allowing you to collect the space jump at the very beginning of the game. This is a massive sequence break that opens up the game to all sorts of other out of order stuff. Should this specific skip be disallowed? It would seem so - this is clearly a major skip that circumvents the developers intended path and is therefore against the spirit of the game.

But hold the phone, it turns out that we have actually talked to a few of the design leads of Metroid Prime and while they did not know about this skip they have stated that it is very much within the spirit of the game to exploit mechanics and glitches to allow for interesting sequence breaks.

What do we do in this case? Should glitches be allowed in Metroid Prime? If it is ok now, were these sequence breaks always ok or should all runs before this information was revealed be banned? Should we contact all developers to ask them if glitches are legitimate in their game? What if two developers who worked on the game disagree?

Now, I am not saying you are wrong for not being impressed by these speed runs. I am just saying that "developer intention", "the spirit of the game", and "what you are supposed to do" are not at all clear and often conflicting and that I think labeling certain techniques "cheating" based on an arbitrarily drawn line does not make sense.

 

[Madmonk12345]

snippety

You keep saying supposed to. However, for many games, they weren't meant to be played quickly at all. they were meant to be explored. If someone speedruns skyrim, are they inherently missing the point and therefore don't deserve accreditations or rewards or praise for their work? There is no timer in OoT. It isn't a race, so why should anyone be speedrunning it at all? Why should a glitchless runner receive accolades or appreciation, for they are doing things they aren't supposed to be doing by going through it quickly at all? The game wasn't supposed to be speed run in the first place, and thusly using how the game was supposed to be played shouldn't factor into it at all.

Because there's a difference between being a completionist and a speedrunner, my friend.

In my opinion (that's right, all these posts fall under the jurisdiction of the dreaded O-word), a speed-run is - as I've said before - completing the minimal requirements of the game in order to complete it. Are you ignoring most of the game if you skip all the side stuff? Certainly. Is there anything or any valid reason for the rest of the game to be completely locked off until you've completed all the side stuff? No? Then if you're trying to show off by beating a game faster than anyone else, there's no need to do all the side stuff.

Using the Skyrim example, there's absolutely nothing that says that you HAVE to complete the Dark Brotherhood, Mage's College, Companions, Thieves Guild, and Civil War before you finish the main story line. You can go straight from the execution block to Whiterun to the first dungeon then back to Whiterun then to the Greybeards etc etc etc. However you're not supposed to be able to go from the execution block to running into the Keep with either the Stormcloak guy or the Imperial guy and somehow magically appearing in Sovngarde ready to fight Alduin. Someone who blazes through the main story of Skyrim with minimal stats in a very short amount of time would be impressive, someone who warps from the opening event of Skyrim to the final boss fight isn't impressive.

Again, this is just my personal taste for speedruns.

Haven't read too much further in the thread, so if you've already responded to these points I apologize. My computer's battery died, so I couldn't respond until now, and I just want to post it having saved it in text file a hour or so ago. Perhaps it will help others, I dunno.

I don't disagree on preference of more completionist speedruns than this at all. With a run so short, you often see the first 3 to 5 minutes over and over during a stream, and watch the opening cutscene many, many times, which to be honest is kind of boring to watch. There's no room for a difference in route, so if you've seen one quick run you've almost seen them all barring huge game changers in games as long as these.

Your complaint wasn't on that before, though. Your complaint repeatedly referenced how the game was supposed to be played or the spirit of the game as a reason to why this run is somehow illegitimate, unnewsworthy, or unpraiseworthy, when by definition if people were speedrunning it at all it wouldn't be how it was supposed to be played, and therefore the "supposed to" argument falls flat.

What is ignoring one more "supposed" to on top of an entire competition and sport(I guess) based around ignoring a big "supposed" to? The developers put in tons of content beyond the main game, and I personally think they'd be kinda miffed if you ignored it all and focused just on the main story. It would have been a lot cheaper for them to have not made it in the first place if everyone did that. And if there's more than one way you are supposed to do something, and it does include things outside the developer's intentions like speedrunning itself, then why shouldn't it include clipping through walls, and glitching the holy fuck out of a game? what differentiates that "supposed to" from this one?

The point is that as a metric, "supposed to" and "out of the spirit of the game" are crap for determining what should and shouldn't be done in a game, especially in a competition which ignores that by its very existence 99% of the time. Find a better metric from which to justify your positions and I couldn't argue your case without disagreeing with you at the fundamentals based on my personal opinion. Length, difficulty, visual impressiveness, variation among runs, amount of improvisation, interest in seeing how skipped portions via glitches play out, etc. can be used and are concrete and measurable and easily justify your the opinions you hold, beyond statements that it shouldn't be reported about or have a record. Those themselves are a statement of how the world is supposed to be, no longer merely opinions.

 

[RJ 17]

Snip.

Simply put: I'm pretty sure the developers of OOT did not intend for you to clip through what's supposed to be a solid, sealed door. And there-in lies the key difference between this OOT run and your Metroid Prime example.

Sure, the developers never intended for you to reach that ledge at the beginning of the game...but are you clipping through a wall to get to it? The Metroid example is a case of exploiting a game mechanic: jumping sideways allowing you to jump faster/farther/etc and reach a ledge that you're not supposed to be able to get to that early. We've touched on this before, and I said that I have no problem with out-smarting the a developer who simply put a platform somewhere that they thought would be beyond your reach. The OOT case is an example of exploiting the game's very coding: passing through something that is specifically meant to not be passed through.

And before you try to compare my saying the Metroid jump is fine to my saying that the Yoshi's Island thing isn't, the same difference as above applies there. As I mentioned, in Yoshi's Island you're breaking the game's coding by preventing the level from function properly, while you're not breaking the coding in Metroid simply by finding a way to jump to a ledge that you're not supposed to be able to get to.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

@ Revank. Yeah, I know that ALL OOT cartriges are buggy. But They don't all let you beat the game by putting a Stick up Gannon's Bum after NOT playing the game. I think my meaning was very clear, though you are very righty. Ther is no "fixed" OOT cartridge

Actually, all of them do let you shove a stick up Gannon's bum after doing a magical dance to teleport to the future. Before the I-que, they did this on the Virtual Console version, and before that on the N64 version, even the English one. All of them have crazy bugs (quite literally in some cases) and all of them allow you to do what Cosmo did, they just have more text and or lag.

 

[-Dragmire-]

Exactly what I mean. Go and read the rest of the Posts.

-snip-

i've already clarified my views in a later post

Apologies, I had that tab open for a while before posting. There were only 30 or so posts at the time.

 

[DrOswald]

Snip.

Simply put: I'm pretty sure the developers of OOT did not intend for you to clip through what's supposed to be a solid, sealed door. And there-in lies the key difference between this OOT run and your Metroid Prime example.

Sure, the developers never intended for you to reach that ledge at the beginning of the game...but are you clipping through a wall to get to it? The Metroid example is a case of exploiting a game mechanic: jumping sideways allowing you to jump faster/farther/etc and reach a ledge that you're not supposed to be able to get to that early. We've touched on this before, and I said that I have no problem with out-smarting the a developer who simply put a platform somewhere that they thought would be beyond your reach. The OOT case is an example of exploiting the game's very coding: passing through something that is specifically meant to not be passed through.

And before you try to compare my saying the Metroid jump is fine to my saying that the Yoshi's Island thing isn't, the same difference as above applies there. As I mentioned, in Yoshi's Island you're breaking the game's coding by preventing the level from function properly, while you're not breaking the coding in Metroid simply by finding a way to jump to a ledge that you're not supposed to be able to get to.

Ah, but again, significant portions of the Metroid Prime speed run involve going out of bounds (clipping though walls for extended periods of time, usually skipping large portions of content) and at least one developer has gone on record (a senior programmer who did a lot of the environmental design) saying that this is perfectly within the spirit of the game.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

Dr Oswald,

I did not know that about Metroid Prime, and it's cool to know that the Dev's gave it a high 5. I would still make the comparison of "sequence break" being different from a "glitch." Before I dive into that though I would like to say excellent points about "spirit of the Game" and "developer intention." I think I will do some Googling before I say much there though.

I will liken this Dash-Jump to the famous Link Bomb-jump.

My inclination is to say that since the dash-jump does not allow Clipping through any terrain, [if I understand Correctly]
but lets you jump farther than a normal jump, and get to a platform containing the Super Jump power, that it does not sound at all the same as the glitch in OOT that skips most of the game because Time Warp. It seems to me like this is just Samus Aran being able to side jump farther than forward jump. While it certainly allows you to traverse vast sections of the Game at a much faster rate, I presume [not having played so please fill me in where I am wrong] you must still defeat the bosses and Metroids in the areas you are now much freer to traverse? To me unless getting this power up early means you immediately get to skip to the final form of a Multi-form boss - and be able to defeat it without the special weapon you are supposed to need to beat it - that it isn't in the same category.

This, I believe leads back to us defining a Glitch for this argument so we can all remain on the same page. I don't see the Metroid Prime example as a Glitch. I do however enjoy the dimension knowing they think any glitch you find is fine by them brings to the discussion, especially around the rules for any%.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

Snip.

Simply put: I'm pretty sure the developers of OOT did not intend for you to clip through what's supposed to be a solid, sealed door. And there-in lies the key difference between this OOT run and your Metroid Prime example.

Sure, the developers never intended for you to reach that ledge at the beginning of the game...but are you clipping through a wall to get to it? The Metroid example is a case of exploiting a game mechanic: jumping sideways allowing you to jump faster/farther/etc and reach a ledge that you're not supposed to be able to get to that early. We've touched on this before, and I said that I have no problem with out-smarting the a developer who simply put a platform somewhere that they thought would be beyond your reach. The OOT case is an example of exploiting the game's very coding: passing through something that is specifically meant to not be passed through.

And before you try to compare my saying the Metroid jump is fine to my saying that the Yoshi's Island thing isn't, the same difference as above applies there. As I mentioned, in Yoshi's Island you're breaking the game's coding by preventing the level from function properly, while you're not breaking the coding in Metroid simply by finding a way to jump to a ledge that you're not supposed to be able to get to.

I don't know, theoretically, the teleporters in OOT are mechanics in the game which change the value of an exit. Certainly, they were not intended to be used outside of some specific cases, but in Metroid Prime you weren't intended to jump on that ledge so early either.

Also, creator intention only extends so far really, that's a major part of art criticism in general. I bet the people who made up baseball didn't intend for knuckle balls, or some other kinds of pitches or hits, but they came about anyway as a natural optimization of play relative to the rules of the game.

 

[DrOswald]

Dr Oswald.

Oh I see your point. I would argue that by not engaging the Scroller of the Level, the Game is Glitching. Is it not? Maybe we should briefly discuss a "glitch" ? I can better see the conflicting nature of our conclusions from your last post.


RJ, On the subject of Mario Games having always included seeming "out of boundary" play?

As a professional programmer, I would define a glitch as some object or function not performing as expected. Or some combination of objects and functions not performing as expected. For example, being able to walk though a wall that is supposed to be solid is a glitch. Nothing like this occurs in the 1-e skip. All objects are performing exactly as expected, all functions are performing normally. Had they made that area a big box instead of just having a wall then the skip would not be possible. However, the developer did not explicitly intend for the 1-e skip to exist. This is not a glitch or a bug. The most you could make an argument for is that it is a design flaw.

But is it really a design flaw? In this specific instance the question is actually if the player should only be allowed to take routes that the developer explicitly intended. RJ 17 argues that only explicitly intended routes should be allowed.

But what about other, similar cases? There are places in the game that allow for similar skips - not skipping an auto scroller, but skipping large portions of a level - if you just make a very precise jump called a perfect flutter. Should these also be disallowed? What about extremely expert egg shots that eliminate the need to transform Yoshi on certain levels? These things were not explicitly intended. The developers probably thought they were impossible. But by expert skill these things are possible.