Stealing From the Next Generation

[stiborge]

I liked that you started this off with Pokemon, understanding that my generation of 16, 17, 18 year olds grew up with it. And I agree that making Pokemon (and Mario, Yoshi's Island for the SNES was one of the first games I ever played at like 5 years old) darker and more "gritty" or whatever would probably suck what I love about it in the first place out. I think that the childish games with old characters (and new IPs are always welcome) and the dark games for mature audiences can live side by side, I can think of numerous titles from both factions that I greatly enjoy.

 

[Brotherofwill]

Wallet chains were cool at one point?

REALLY?

I just can't believe such a thing.

You have no idea . I was really into them myself, never got to have one though.

In the broad strokes, Mario hasn't changed much since I first met him in 1986. What if he had? What if his face was just a bit more grim, Bowser just a bit more threatening, Princess Peach a bit more affectionate?

Spoiler: My Face!!!

 

[dante brevity]

I don't know. I've seen what happens when a children's icon doesn't grow, and is protected by its creators from ever maturing so that it can stay perpetually accessible to the next generation's children: Disney.

 

[Worgen]

I still wouldnt mind seeing a zelda game that was a bit darker and had a bit more reason for gannon being a bad guy instead of just happening to be the last boss, they never seem to say what hes done thats so bad besides occasionally kidnap zelda or usurp power, I mean when he usurps its not like you see heads on pikes all over the place, in fact its usually pretty much the same place. Altho mario will always be perfect with a lighter tone.... altho seeing bowers try and take peach out on a date could be more amusing then seeing him constantly kidnap her

 

[Traun]

Did we REALLY, REALLY needed to hear how Bob is trashing the hardcore fanbase AGAIN!? You know, because he doesn't whine about it every single time the opportunity present itself? Seriously Bob, isn't there anything else in the world you can talk about, don't you think that you fans are already tired of hearing this again and again?

I was going to write a critique, but honestly, some people have already done a better job then I could have.

 

[theSovietConnection]

I can't agree with this. As much as moviebob thinks the camp stuff deserves to have a place, I think the grimdark stuff deserves its place. I don't see how saying 'everything should be darker and edgier!' is any worse than saying 'everything should be tongue-in-cheek and colorful'.

I have to agree with this. Every piece has it's place, whether we like it or not. What makes a grim version of Pokemon any less a part of the series then a happiness and rainbows Pokemon?(not that you mentioned Pokemon, is just the best example I can think of)

In fact, who is to say the whole Pokemon world isn't something darker in itself? [http://cartoonoveranalyzations.com/2009/04/09/pokemon-explained/]

 

[Nateman742]

1) Aiming a story at children is going to restrict your art. Are Wall-E and Up good films? Fuck yes, I loved them. Will they ever have as much brilliance and meaning oh what are my top 3 adult films, say Godfather, Blade Runner or A Clockwork Orange? No, never. Not their fault, but simply aiming it at a younger audience means you have to sacrifice some artistic merit. Want an example from the same director? Look at the difference in quality between Ponyo and Princess Mononoke. (And I liked Ponyo before I hear it).

2) You have to recognize what are already kind of adult themes. People assume that comics are inherently for kids, and that's not ENTIRELY wrong. But it's not entirely correct either. Batman, for example, is not an inherently childish concept. It is, when you strip away a lot of our assumptions, about a 10 year old kid who watches his parents die and, again boiling away a lot of stuff, goes completely off the wall crazy, dresses up like a Bat and starts punching criminals. Is it silly? Yes. Are there already adult concepts and stories working their way in? Oh yes.

Just some food for thought.

Those themes will be there anyway. You don't have to focus on them to make a good production. What happens when Mega Man dies? Well, Dr. Light probably rebuilds him. I could say that Roll's a pacifist because she sees her brother die all the time and there's no definitive proof otherwise. Do the endless number of enemy robots in every stage have sentience, or even intelligence? Probably. Mega Man is a child soldier in war, and he's taken countless lives on the battlefield, just because of a bitter rivalry between his father and an old colleague. It's not until the X series that these themes are really discussed, but they were always present.

While we're talking about robots: Wall-E deals with loneliness, extinction, free will, totalitarianism, death, mental instability and illness, racism, greed, regret, nuclear war, and what it means to be alive. It just doesn't shove its themes in your face to be edgy. And don't try to tell me A Clockwork Orange wasn't trying to be edgy for edgy's sake. That was part of its point.

It's your responsibility to reach your own conclusion about these things. If you refuse to do that, you have some growing up to do.

Did we REALLY, REALLY needed to hear how Bob is trashing the hardcore fanbase AGAIN!?

No, you didn't. You could have closed the article. It's that easy.

 

[Draconalis]

I thought this article was either about Star Trek or Obama's administration.

 

[sleepykid]

Agreed, although it's not to say child-aimed movies don't touch on that kind of thing regardless. Watch Fox and the Hound, you'll know what I mean.

Little off-topic, but I'm noticing people praising avatar for its ability to mesh these two, and I'm confused. To me that show has always ruined what potential it had in terms of animation and characters when it became really juvenile. For example, I remember an episode where they had to go to a secret library in order to find the fire nation's secret. Long story short, they ticked off the guardian and got into a scuffle, culminating in the guy with a boomerang hitting it from behind. His victory cry? "That's Saka style, learn it!"

I cringed.

Or when they met an old earth-bending king, who turned out to be ripped instead of a vulnerable old man. He was a bit crazy, and the jokes they tried to make him do are just...awful. He held the group hostage, with the girl shouting "let us leave!". The old loon picks up a piece of cabbage and says "Lettuce leaf?". Cue bumbling music, and my -pain-.

To me it totally breaks any sense of immersion of believability when they do something that would make even a drunk D&D party look more epic in its narrative. I admit that creating a believable world and characters might not be the intended goal, or I'm just too in love with seriousness, but is there something I'm not getting here?

 

[Traun]

Did we REALLY, REALLY needed to hear how Bob is trashing the hardcore fanbase AGAIN!?

No, you didn't. You could have closed the article. It's that easy.

I agree with Moviebob in many cases and in general I enjoy his shows, which is why I read and sometimes comment on his works. Also the fact that I can "close the article" is not an excuse. The same could be said for half the shit out there, it doesn't justify it's existence.

 

[flightofeternity]

Awesome, as per usual. I myself am one of you're younger fans, but unlike most of my brethren I really do despise changing something to fill the needs of the wider agenda. This may be partly because I quite quickly got over the whole "self conscious, hardcore" phase in my life and the fact that I became a gamer once I got a Gamecube so my first Zelda was actually a lot more different than others, once twilight princess came out I was a bit disappointed to see that Nintendo had gone back to an older (and come on lets admit it) slightly less original style just to satisfy the needs of others. After playing Wind Waker which gave the whole "Zelda" formula an EVEN MORE original outlook, this essentially set a gold standard that no game so far has reached (at least on my account). This has made me lean more towards originality than anything else. I guess its all on how, and when you got into gaming.

 

[NewGeekPhilosopher]

I agree with you here. Right now, Bob, Generation Y, that is, the dudes and dudettes who grew up in the period after Generation X which you are a part of - are the new Lost Generation - not because we've fought in a civil war in Spain or anything but because due to the focus on Gen X controlling the current media that drives stuff like Transformers and GI Joe remakes - us Gen Y kids got nothing. And when we do get it I'm hoping it won't end up like what you just described.

There's hope for Pokemon staying cute and cuddly though - Pokemon in Japan is like a nerdier version of Hello Kitty - and Nintendo is notorious for not darkening up their games originally intended for children. The Japanese have a very different sensibility when they come up with something for children than what Americans come up with - not saying American media for children is bad - Spongebob Squarepants for example was one of the most inventive ideas ever offered to my generation. I'm just saying that when a Japanese game designer makes something cute enough for children - it tends to stay cute because the character has an identity associated with children. Americans on the other hand grow up and tend to outgrow old franchises - whereas the Japanese are even more nostalgic than the Americans and Australians combined - have you seen how many high school anime they make? It's not just there for the fanservice.

Capcom have slightly been the exception to the rule though - Bionic Commando for example when it got remade turned out to be horrible - at least Street Fighter because of it's goofy ironic world warrior branding retains the fun and silliness.

God knows, if we saw a Dungeons and Dragons movie in the 1990s or early 2000s (I can't remember which) we might be seeing a Magic: The Gathering movie soon. That would more likely be a hardcore movie as opposed to Pokemon. Because Pokemon remembers that its main appeal is its childlike charm.

Excuse me while I get back to writing my own books which I hope might get adapted into movies one day. I gotta give this generation SOMETHING that isn't all doom and gloom and apathy.

 

[Rocketboy13]

In fact, who is to say the whole Pokemon world isn't something darker in itself? [http://cartoonoveranalyzations.com/2009/04/09/pokemon-explained/]

This is the sort of thing that proves English degrees are about one's own ability to BS.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

well this article points out the obvious. Yes, light-heartedness should never, ever die and looking at stuff ONLY with darker tones does not make you smarter and mature. But we also do need darker things and scream all you want, ROBIN ISN'T GOING TO BE IN BATMAN 3.

 

[saintchristopher]

Bob, in the relatively short time I've spent following your works on The Escapist, you've probably had more of a hand in refining my palate, as far as game/comics/films are concerned, than any other external influence.

I never thought there'd be room in Nolan's Gotham for a Robin until you made the case. Your unbridled enthusiasm for the impending Avengers film, and what such a thing means to the zeitgeist of cinema AND comic book culture actually inspired me to head to a for-real comic book shop for the first time and start buying monthlies, instead of the more sterile "graphic novels" section of your major bookseller.

And I've always known that "dark" or (ugh) "gritty" re-imaginings weren't better or cooler, I just never quite knew why.

Yours is an enthusiasm free of irony or cynicism, one that defends what has been good without fearing or rejecting what's coming next. For that, I salute you.

 

[hexFrank202]

Dude... seriously, I LOVE your movie reviews, I LOVE the TGO, your voice is an absolute joy to listen to (it's seriously almost nationally-syndicated-radio-talk-show-host quality), but are you really going to go over the "I don't like dark and gritty all that much" lecture again? Really? Don't you think people are kind of sick of hearing it by now, even if they agree with it? I sure am.

I think you might need to go up to the guys at the Escapist and ask them,
"You think I could start doing these blogs just every second week, instead of every seven days? Because I really have nothing to talk about half the time."

Yahtzee, you see, is able to pull the weekly blog gig off because video games take more time to talk about than movies. He spends five minutes talking about almost nothing but the current week's game (and magically never breathes) then usually he'll use his articles to dig deeper into the game at hand, going off on some behind-the-scenes aspect, some subtextual element or concept he noticed, or any unrelated topic he was reminded of.

You, however, usually sum up your opinion on a movie in a matter of seconds (you're really good at that) then spend the other four-and-a-half minutes on the semi-unrelated, over-thinking stuff (and you're really, REALLY good at that). So come on; isn't having a weekly blog in addition to that a little overkill? Maybe you do have the ability to come up with better stuff to talk about and you're just busy or distracted right now, which I suppose is fine, and I actually kind of hope that's the case.

This post seems rather... angry. Before now, I've made all of one posts on this website, and even then I still managed to do something in that solitary post that a moderator didn't appreciate. I was told that I was flaming. All I did was I criticized someone on their blog-writing skills (way more harshly than I did to you ;D). I didn't insult anybody, I didn't say anything that should reasonably offend anybody, I just provided feedback, and if I also happened to be pissed-off, I'd wish people would get over it. Well anyway, I'm not trying to say the mod was wrong to correct me like that, I just had to make a disclaimer that I AM NOT TRYING TO FLAME MOVIEBOB OR INSULT HIM. I'M GIVING HIM THE SAME KIND OF HONEST OPINION THAT HE GIVES TO FILMS AND GAMES. ^ʚ^

 

[hexFrank202]

Did we REALLY, REALLY needed to hear how Bob is trashing the hardcore fanbase AGAIN!?

No, you didn't. You could have closed the article. It's that easy.

I agree with Moviebob in many cases and in general I enjoy his shows, which is why I read and sometimes comment on his works. Also the fact that I can "close the article" is not an excuse. The same could be said for half the shit out there, it doesn't justify it's existence.

I'm glad to see that someone else is tired of Bob's constant whining of hardcore... stuff or whatever. But more importantly: you deserve a f*****g gold medal for standing up and fighting the battle against the idiotic forces of "IF YOU DON'T LIKE THIS, DON'T WATCH/READ/VIEW/PLAY IT!" Also known as the most retarded and embarrassing bullcrap excuse in human existence.

Little children; gather 'round and tell me, what are comments for?
"...saying only positive things?"
No, dumbass.
"Honest feedback?"
YES! Good work! You're getting really smart! Tomorrow, I'll teach you how to tie your shoes.

 

[Nomanslander]

I remember when things that were considered hardcore at least had heart, specifically in the 80s. For instance as a kid I was really into Rambo and Robocop, two film franchises that were heavy on the gore and f-bombs but still had a fair amount of character development.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think grim and gritty is the problem, an inability to create a decent relatable character is.

If you want a prime example of the opposite of the machismo b.s. you see in films and video games today look at Jar Jar Binks and that stupid The Clone Wars movie, or any of the wannabe Pixel 3D animated films being made on every corner of Hollywood.

For me, a franchise being Disney-fied is just as depressing as seeing it get the bad watchmen treatment, they're really the same because the fact is they're both developed on the note of cliches and desperate extremes in order to gain our interest.....and hopefully our money.

 

[rddj623]

Great art is not restricted to mature execution. Mature subject matter, sure. But you can do that without being explicit. Take a look at Up, or Secondhand Lions they have mature subject matter, but it's executed in a family friendly manner. Games might be a bit harder to do that with, but I still love me some Mario. No major change necessary. Now being older I do appreciate things like There Will Be Brawl, I thought it was a brilliant neo-noir look at our favorite childhood heroes. It however knew it was just that, a re-imagining for a mature audience, it never tried to redefine the source material. Good article Bob.

 

[Kollega]

Sometimes the first duty of intellegent men is the restatement of the obvious.
- George Orwell.

Really, there's no way i could disagree with that. There's nothing i can add to it either. This article perfectly represents my opinion on the subject. I don't have anything against actual maturity (say, a well-executed film noir), but i do have a lot against GRIMDAKR - and when it comes to grimmification of the old franchises... UGH. Just... ugh.