That description in the last bit sounds like it could work, but would be difficult to pull off while still seeming coherent. That isn't to say it shouldn't be done, just done carefully.
Stealth
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
Page 2, Paragraph 2, Sentence 3: Mixed tense - change "(and indeed have)" to "(and indeed do)"
As always, insightful and well written (which is why the above stands out like an angry welt.)
I've only scanned most of the commentary, but there seems to be chimings for the idea that the three-act story model may work just fine if done right. I think it would also be possible to utilize all three corners of the triangle while keeping the same mechanics, within the same game. I think it could be accomplished with a subtle shift, as opposed to an outright gameplay change.
Portal would seem to be an acceptable example, although it's accomplished more through a change of tone. It begins with the AI as a detached guide evolving into a passive-aggressive antagonist and culminating in a final battle which is our hero's first opportunity to truly fight back against her captor. In a way this starts with a teaparty, shifts into evasion, and only culminates in head-to-head conflict in our final scene.
This only works if one considers GLaDOS as the adversary and not the environment itself, though even the world doesn't really fight back until the electric sewage.
As always, insightful and well written (which is why the above stands out like an angry welt.)
I've only scanned most of the commentary, but there seems to be chimings for the idea that the three-act story model may work just fine if done right. I think it would also be possible to utilize all three corners of the triangle while keeping the same mechanics, within the same game. I think it could be accomplished with a subtle shift, as opposed to an outright gameplay change.
Portal would seem to be an acceptable example, although it's accomplished more through a change of tone. It begins with the AI as a detached guide evolving into a passive-aggressive antagonist and culminating in a final battle which is our hero's first opportunity to truly fight back against her captor. In a way this starts with a teaparty, shifts into evasion, and only culminates in head-to-head conflict in our final scene.
This only works if one considers GLaDOS as the adversary and not the environment itself, though even the world doesn't really fight back until the electric sewage.
Good sir, that is an absolutely brilliant idea. You ought to pen a design document as soon as it is feasible. I can honestly see this being an evolutionary new AAA-quality title.psychodynamica said:
Oh, I remember the coop. Good times. Hilarious cockups sometimes... Punched a guard, he fell off a balcony, landing on my partner below; knocked him unconscious. I miss that game.Straying Bullet said:
...
WAIT!
It's on the XBL Marketplace!
PRAISE THE LAWD!
I think that Arkham Asylum nicely ignored the triangle and kept to the square:
Player attacking/enemies attacking happens repeatedly when the Joker tries to trap you.
Player attacking/enemies not attacking happens during the stealth sections.
Player not attacking/enemies attacking or evasion sections occurs during the part set in Killer Croc's lair and avoiding the Scarecrow's gaze in the mind-screw parts.
Player not attacking/enemies not attacking occurs right near the end of the game when the Joker's goons let you into the last building and applaud you as you walk past (although I didn't realise this first time through and beat the guards outside the door to a pulp as I'd been conditioned to all game long). Was a nice twist that I really wasn't expecting.
As for the whole world only existing within 50 yards of Batman, I think that considering the whole story was the Joker setting a trap specifically for him justifies it in this instance.
Player attacking/enemies attacking happens repeatedly when the Joker tries to trap you.
Player attacking/enemies not attacking happens during the stealth sections.
Player not attacking/enemies attacking or evasion sections occurs during the part set in Killer Croc's lair and avoiding the Scarecrow's gaze in the mind-screw parts.
Player not attacking/enemies not attacking occurs right near the end of the game when the Joker's goons let you into the last building and applaud you as you walk past (although I didn't realise this first time through and beat the guards outside the door to a pulp as I'd been conditioned to all game long). Was a nice twist that I really wasn't expecting.
As for the whole world only existing within 50 yards of Batman, I think that considering the whole story was the Joker setting a trap specifically for him justifies it in this instance.
Yahtzee, I think you hit a very intersting point.
One of the reasons the 1999 Aliens vs. Predator game keeps such a warm place in many players' hearts is because that "triangle" was used very effectively in most campaigns. Take the alien campaign where you started off as a defenseless "chestburster" that had to evade soldiers trying to hunt you down. Then you moved into a stealth mode where you'd creep around the station taking out unwary guards. Until the end where you became powerful enough to eviscerate the dirty humans and win the day for the evil alien race!
Another example of your theory is what many people hate modern RPGs for. Old school RPGs would start out with you powerless, you'd have to use stealth and, many times, evasion to get away from high-level baddies because you didn't have the ability to fight them toe-to-toe. So the journey was extra-exhilarating when you finally get the weapons, armor, and skills to fight pitched battles in situations where before you had to evade and be stealthy.
I think there's a lot of truth in your article. A lot of wisdom that was once understood on some level but has now been lost to the idocracy of modern game development.
One of the reasons the 1999 Aliens vs. Predator game keeps such a warm place in many players' hearts is because that "triangle" was used very effectively in most campaigns. Take the alien campaign where you started off as a defenseless "chestburster" that had to evade soldiers trying to hunt you down. Then you moved into a stealth mode where you'd creep around the station taking out unwary guards. Until the end where you became powerful enough to eviscerate the dirty humans and win the day for the evil alien race!
Another example of your theory is what many people hate modern RPGs for. Old school RPGs would start out with you powerless, you'd have to use stealth and, many times, evasion to get away from high-level baddies because you didn't have the ability to fight them toe-to-toe. So the journey was extra-exhilarating when you finally get the weapons, armor, and skills to fight pitched battles in situations where before you had to evade and be stealthy.
I think there's a lot of truth in your article. A lot of wisdom that was once understood on some level but has now been lost to the idocracy of modern game development.
I read the bit about Anime being a medium and not a genre and I immediately came here to agree. I hate it when people just say 'I like anime'. It makes as much sense as saying 'I like western animation'.
Hmm...there hasn't been a single stealth game I've loved, but I've heard good things from the Thief series. Are any Vista-compatible?
So you mean that the first three splinter cell games weren't about an unkonwn guy sneaking into a building complex/stronghold where you're not supposed to be in, which isn't anticipating you and hopefully won't notice you throughout?
Because in those games, I killed at most one guy per level. And that was mostly because I fucked up, but in the splinter cell series you are always that one guy that no one see coming.
And yet you mostly had the freedom to get through the level however you wanted. Wanna kill everyone and cause havoc on the level? You sure could, with some restrictions, but you also had the oppurtunity to be silent. In most of my playthroughs, I could sometime wait half an hour just to get to that perfect spot to avoid some guard while choosing my entrances carefully, staying in the dark corners of the ceiling, hanging on pipes and walls just to get through the level without any casualities. Those were the good games, though it was slow and grinding, it would always become a great challenge to get through the level without setting any alarms or killing any guards.
By my experience, the splinter cell games had much better stealth gameplay then any other game has yet to accomplish. It was excilirating to creep in the shadow while ten guards were chasing you or using Sam's incredible acrobatics to reach airvents and pipes to get to that unobtainable vantage point for you to intercept a suspect.
But if your experience with the splinter cell franchise is governed by the last two games (double agent and conviction) I could reckon that you would send of these games as bad stealth games.
Because in those games, I killed at most one guy per level. And that was mostly because I fucked up, but in the splinter cell series you are always that one guy that no one see coming.
And yet you mostly had the freedom to get through the level however you wanted. Wanna kill everyone and cause havoc on the level? You sure could, with some restrictions, but you also had the oppurtunity to be silent. In most of my playthroughs, I could sometime wait half an hour just to get to that perfect spot to avoid some guard while choosing my entrances carefully, staying in the dark corners of the ceiling, hanging on pipes and walls just to get through the level without any casualities. Those were the good games, though it was slow and grinding, it would always become a great challenge to get through the level without setting any alarms or killing any guards.
By my experience, the splinter cell games had much better stealth gameplay then any other game has yet to accomplish. It was excilirating to creep in the shadow while ten guards were chasing you or using Sam's incredible acrobatics to reach airvents and pipes to get to that unobtainable vantage point for you to intercept a suspect.
But if your experience with the splinter cell franchise is governed by the last two games (double agent and conviction) I could reckon that you would send of these games as bad stealth games.
Two examples--
MIRROR'S EDGE was excellent when it was hunkering down and exploring fresh territory in the Evasion corner of the triangle. Unfortunately, the designers just couldn't avoid falling into the quicksand of mandatory combat and fatally crippled what could have otherwise been a completely revolutionary game.
DEUS EX, on the other hand, largely achieved the mixing of all three corners of the triangle through the simple expedient of making it possible to overcome every challenge in the game in a variety of different ways. Because I was never forced into a style of play I didn't want, the mixing of gameplay styles wasn't a problem. And, better yet, the RPG elements of the design allowed me to improve my character in the styles of gameplay I preferred.
MIRROR'S EDGE was excellent when it was hunkering down and exploring fresh territory in the Evasion corner of the triangle. Unfortunately, the designers just couldn't avoid falling into the quicksand of mandatory combat and fatally crippled what could have otherwise been a completely revolutionary game.
DEUS EX, on the other hand, largely achieved the mixing of all three corners of the triangle through the simple expedient of making it possible to overcome every challenge in the game in a variety of different ways. Because I was never forced into a style of play I didn't want, the mixing of gameplay styles wasn't a problem. And, better yet, the RPG elements of the design allowed me to improve my character in the styles of gameplay I preferred.
You know, there could be a game in that fourth corner. In this train of thought, I find myself continuously thinking of Pratchett's Rincewind, so I'll use him as a kind of image to keep in mind. Why don't we have a game where killing a single guy is practically impossible, while stealth and sneaking and running away are preferred. Sure, it wouldn't be the most exciting, but imagine a falsely accused man, perhaps with a title like "Primary Enemy of the State/King/Queen/Horse-Elected Senator", running away from meatheads in armor waving swords around for effect, having to parkour his way out of an area. He'd be unarmed, where he can only use improvised junk laying around (a halfbrick in a sock, for instance), and where the ultimate goal is to get away, with no one noticing, taking into account civilians along the way. You could find a clothesline, and change your attire, you can hide in buildings and barrels and crates, you'll have a stamina gauge that you can improve over time by running more, or completing challenges. You can find little hideouts that teach you a new way to run that allows you to run further/faster and also might teach you the slogans of political dissidents that they might hinder your pursuers in the manner of the thugs or hookers in Assassin's Creed. You could even vary it up by having sages or seers peppered in the later enemies, disabling your early forms of hiding because they are aware of your presence and can find you, making the escape even more hectic. Maybe you'll eventually encounter other runners, and find their markers that only the initiated can read (I'm reminded of the Himalayan rock stacking to mark the path), to lead you to safety. He could even be a normal guy, who gets more haggard as he goes along, having no time to stop and shave, or shower, or wash off the pond scum from the pond he dove into in the last mission to avoid the dogs, using the old reed technique to hide under the surface. It could be part puzzle (what do I use to make sure I live), and part stealth (hide like hell and hope they don't shine the light in my direction).
Well, there's always supposed-to-lose fights to mix up the combat and narrative.
Ninja Gaiden Dragon Sword had a couple of those, and the story was more engaging as a result. At least, I thought so. Okay, the second one was followed by a cop-out deus-ex-machina, but at least it was comforting to know that you really were supposed to lose that fight when many of the bosses on the console games are nigh impossible to beat, yet you need to beat them to continue the story.
And hey, better to have a supposed-to-lose fight after a stroll down I'm-a-fucking-badass street than to wade umpteen times through a cheaply difficult level, only to die in a cutscene anyway, right?
Ninja Gaiden Dragon Sword had a couple of those, and the story was more engaging as a result. At least, I thought so. Okay, the second one was followed by a cop-out deus-ex-machina, but at least it was comforting to know that you really were supposed to lose that fight when many of the bosses on the console games are nigh impossible to beat, yet you need to beat them to continue the story.
And hey, better to have a supposed-to-lose fight after a stroll down I'm-a-fucking-badass street than to wade umpteen times through a cheaply difficult level, only to die in a cutscene anyway, right?
Ha I contest your silly Tea Party Mr Hatter. Investitive gameplay still exists and normally is sandwiched into RPG's, requiring you to go speak to X in order to get Y to give you a coin so you can pay for Z's magical boomerang. Ok most of the time it is just not required or forced but there are times where it is immersive.
So my question to you Yahtzee is - doesn't the existence of Deus Ex shit on your Triangle?
So my question to you Yahtzee is - doesn't the existence of Deus Ex shit on your Triangle?
The only game that did the storytelling like a movie and was a lot of fun was GUN. So it can be done sometimes. It started of slow, had ups and downs of a character and even a bit of stealth in some levels and it culminated with an epic boss battle. I really felt like I was "playing a movie".
It seems to me that modern sneaking games are like playing Adventures of Lolo (on NES) in 3D. We have the technology to make smart stronghold guards, but now, like in Lolo they are only able to breath fire in one direction.
I would give my soul for a good stealth.
It is true that developers are trying to make movie like games and perhaps fail in them that way... Like in splinter cell you can wait the guy next to you just ignore the seventh time he, lets say had the "I-thought-I-saw-something" movement, but there is no feel to it like Yahtzee said. World is revolving around Fisher. I would like to fear the guards that the stronghold has to offer. I wish they offered a challenge. More autonomous world would also be nice (No freaking position triggers that make something happen over and over in the same way).
I would give my soul for a good stealth.
It is true that developers are trying to make movie like games and perhaps fail in them that way... Like in splinter cell you can wait the guy next to you just ignore the seventh time he, lets say had the "I-thought-I-saw-something" movement, but there is no feel to it like Yahtzee said. World is revolving around Fisher. I would like to fear the guards that the stronghold has to offer. I wish they offered a challenge. More autonomous world would also be nice (No freaking position triggers that make something happen over and over in the same way).