Stealth
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
It's been mentioned before, but the only game that has had parts that nail that feeling for me has been Metroid Fusion. Some of the evasion parts had me simply terrified running all out. Almost as good in the related section of Metroid Zero Mission.Zhukov said:
And Yahtzee, thank you (seriously, not sarcastically) for finally putting the Ebert controversy to rest. They're different, they aren't the same, now let's let it go and let games be games and films be films.
Kind of funny cause some of my favorite games used the category that neither the enemy or the player are attacking for at least some parts... Some old PC RPGs had parts like this such as the Fallout games and Planescape: torment, and Arcanum (or maybe that is almost all the games that had that. of them...)
But heck, there is a whole GENRE that involves relatively little of enemy attacking the player or player attacking the enemy- puzzle adventure games such as Gabriel Knight and Monkey Island. I do admit some of the puzzles in those type of games could be lame and annoying with just trying to use items on everything... But what would be perhaps interesting is a game that revolves around diplomacy and words, like the parts in WRPGs where you convince a boss to commit suicide or for some other situation that avoids a physical conflict.
To me this is as much escapism as going and beating up 20 guys at once. Why? Because even though I read a decent amount, my writing and speech skills are still rather sub par, yet, being able to convince an enemy to kill itself or some other situation that my character's words alone solve the situation can be as fun or even more fun than just bashing the other dude's skull in.
But heck, there is a whole GENRE that involves relatively little of enemy attacking the player or player attacking the enemy- puzzle adventure games such as Gabriel Knight and Monkey Island. I do admit some of the puzzles in those type of games could be lame and annoying with just trying to use items on everything... But what would be perhaps interesting is a game that revolves around diplomacy and words, like the parts in WRPGs where you convince a boss to commit suicide or for some other situation that avoids a physical conflict.
To me this is as much escapism as going and beating up 20 guys at once. Why? Because even though I read a decent amount, my writing and speech skills are still rather sub par, yet, being able to convince an enemy to kill itself or some other situation that my character's words alone solve the situation can be as fun or even more fun than just bashing the other dude's skull in.
Metal Gear Solid 1 hits all three points pretty well.
Early on, you are pretty weak, so you evade and avoid fights altogether. Plus, being seen and taking down opponents downgrades you, so you avoid it.
Then you have a couple of sequences of forced action or a boss fight.
To top that off, whenever you want, you can snap and just start hunting guards (screw the downgrade). Combined with a silencer and more weapons, this is more hunting than evasion.
Also, ironically, it sounds like splinter cell hits some of these points, too. I'm playing through double agent, which is a lot of evasion, and some hunting (required to kill X guards). It sounds like Conviction is hunting + forced combat. Plus, there is also the co-op...
I really like the example, though. Can games tell a story in a non-film method? Or can a game tell a story in a film method, that often involves continual loss and punishment?
Early on, you are pretty weak, so you evade and avoid fights altogether. Plus, being seen and taking down opponents downgrades you, so you avoid it.
Then you have a couple of sequences of forced action or a boss fight.
To top that off, whenever you want, you can snap and just start hunting guards (screw the downgrade). Combined with a silencer and more weapons, this is more hunting than evasion.
Also, ironically, it sounds like splinter cell hits some of these points, too. I'm playing through double agent, which is a lot of evasion, and some hunting (required to kill X guards). It sounds like Conviction is hunting + forced combat. Plus, there is also the co-op...
I really like the example, though. Can games tell a story in a non-film method? Or can a game tell a story in a film method, that often involves continual loss and punishment?
You know, I've long been thinking that in fire fights where the player is seriously outmatched, there should be a retreat option (read: requirement) to have things play out a bit more realistically. I mean if I were a burly commando type I'd only have gotten to be such a force of testosterone by knowing when I can and cannot win - and discretion IS the better part of valour, right?
Trouble is, developers never consider running away as a valid option unless the game has planted you specifically weapon-less and it the serves the plot.
There are, however some exceptions - Call of Cthulu: Dark Corners of the Earth and the Thief series actually reward your cowardice with survival. Well, the latter more than the former which again had retreat as an oft-used plot mechanic. So I guess we're really just down to Thief being the only game that made running away screaming like a little girl a viable option.
Buggery.
Trouble is, developers never consider running away as a valid option unless the game has planted you specifically weapon-less and it the serves the plot.
There are, however some exceptions - Call of Cthulu: Dark Corners of the Earth and the Thief series actually reward your cowardice with survival. Well, the latter more than the former which again had retreat as an oft-used plot mechanic. So I guess we're really just down to Thief being the only game that made running away screaming like a little girl a viable option.
Buggery.
"Ideally, a game with a three-act plot would use all three corners of the triangle - start out with evasion when you're vulnerable, use stealth in the middle to redress the balance guerrilla-style, then gain sufficient strength to sort everything out with violence in the end."
That sounds like Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth to me... good game
That sounds like Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth to me... good game
I think this would work absolute wonders in an Aliens Versus Predator game. Personally, if I was a Marine - I wouldn't feel so cocky about taking down the Predator if I saw my squadmate's skinned body hanging upisde-down from the rafters. I certainly wouldn't dismiss it with a "Don't let your guard down, Marines."psychodynamica said:
I thought Arkham Asylum covered the three sections pretty well.
You use direct combat when squaring off against a horde of joker's goons in various arena like sections. You use stealth when presented with a room full of armed thugs so they don't spray you brains all over arkham's rusted walls. And you evade enemies throughout most of the latter part of the game once armed thugs become almost instantly aware when you take someone out. I honestly would get stressed out at times when I found myself stuck in a corner when they became aware of my presence.
You use direct combat when squaring off against a horde of joker's goons in various arena like sections. You use stealth when presented with a room full of armed thugs so they don't spray you brains all over arkham's rusted walls. And you evade enemies throughout most of the latter part of the game once armed thugs become almost instantly aware when you take someone out. I honestly would get stressed out at times when I found myself stuck in a corner when they became aware of my presence.
Sneaking is not you attack/enemies not attacking, because they'll fight when they spot you, so it's not so different from for example cocademons not being able to hit you, because you learned how to strafe (a matter of skill).
That brings us unexpectedly to a new idea in videogaming!
you attack/enemies not attacking:
The player character is attacking enemies who are trying to hide/escape/run away, or alternatively just trying to tag them in the kid version.
Really just the oldest kid game on brought into the digital age and so it might just work. Enough varied tools and NPCs that can sneak and not run into walls and you could have a nice challenge.
That brings us unexpectedly to a new idea in videogaming!
you attack/enemies not attacking:
The player character is attacking enemies who are trying to hide/escape/run away, or alternatively just trying to tag them in the kid version.
Really just the oldest kid game on brought into the digital age and so it might just work. Enough varied tools and NPCs that can sneak and not run into walls and you could have a nice challenge.
Good article, I agree that open stealth games such as those are often the best and linearity just destroys the creative impulses that come with the gameplay type.
On a completely unrelated note, your comment on tension in Animal Crossing only makes me think of how Tom Nook, Bookie: The Game would play.
On a completely unrelated note, your comment on tension in Animal Crossing only makes me think of how Tom Nook, Bookie: The Game would play.
This may have been covered, but I am at work and rushed so consider these to be drive-by-comments.
1) When games have you sneak into a facility to steal data, not kill guards, would this not be considered player not attacking/enemy not attacking? It is not the most common mode of play, but I believe it does exist.
2) Let me see if I have this straight:
Ebert has a point that games are not art because they do not use the classic cinema style of narration.
Games are in fact not using this style because it would not be fun.
Conclusion, games won't be art until they stop doing what they are already not doing.
....What?? I am sorry Yahtzee, I think your logic train took a dirt road at the end.
3) Are paintings not art? They surely do not follow the cinema template.
4) Same questions for pottery, statues or architecture.
I normally love these articles but this one seemed a bit rushed and poorly thought out.
...or maybe I have just been staring at 3D models too long today.
1) When games have you sneak into a facility to steal data, not kill guards, would this not be considered player not attacking/enemy not attacking? It is not the most common mode of play, but I believe it does exist.
2) Let me see if I have this straight:
Ebert has a point that games are not art because they do not use the classic cinema style of narration.
Games are in fact not using this style because it would not be fun.
Conclusion, games won't be art until they stop doing what they are already not doing.
....What?? I am sorry Yahtzee, I think your logic train took a dirt road at the end.
3) Are paintings not art? They surely do not follow the cinema template.
4) Same questions for pottery, statues or architecture.
I normally love these articles but this one seemed a bit rushed and poorly thought out.
...or maybe I have just been staring at 3D models too long today.
Unless, of course, that movie is Hitman. That movie did all the above and also found time to woo and bed someone's mum. I'm not saying whose.Yahtzee Croshaw said:
But, Yahtzee! you mentioned Beyond Good and Evil being a good game in an early review (alongside cake and belgium and something). Yet it has elements of that bad stealth you've just decried, namely the stealthing being a linear corridor with nooks and crannies whose only purpose is to serve stealth (and house some rats). Although the game does have the flavor of shadowy entity breaking into a stronghold soooo... *thoughts wander off*
*shrug* I know I really liked Beyond Good and Evil.
*shrug* I know I really liked Beyond Good and Evil.
I even think Beyond Good and Evil did the square thing, not just the triangle. You have the evasion, the stealth, the direct combat, and then all this fiddling around taking pictures, playing games or just exploring to find pearls, with no enemies.
And yes, as was said before, the entire Adventure genre relies greatly on chatting around and thinking through. That's as much a teaparty as you can get. Flower takes the relaxing, nochalant attitude to the extreme.
I'll have to agree with Yahtzee though, the current skew towards attack/attack is huge and denies the creation on interesting gameplay styles and/or inmersion techniques.
And yes, as was said before, the entire Adventure genre relies greatly on chatting around and thinking through. That's as much a teaparty as you can get. Flower takes the relaxing, nochalant attitude to the extreme.
I'll have to agree with Yahtzee though, the current skew towards attack/attack is huge and denies the creation on interesting gameplay styles and/or inmersion techniques.
I was waiting to see if someone would remember Commandos. That's a pretty good example of a game with evasion and stealth, though there wasn't much in the way of direct combat (due to being outnumbered in most levels by, what, thirty to one?) unless you could hijack a tank.TurkeyProphet said: