Steam TOS Leads to Trouble in Germany
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
- Start date
Good call on the part of the German authorities here. Valve is a good company and all, but that doesn't give them the right to take away all the games someone legally purchased whether it be for disagreements over TOS or other reasons. Games belong to the consumer once purchased, retailers need to respect that right. I hope for similar rulings in the U.S.
What if they updated their Terms of Service to state that the customer has to give them access to all their bank account details and credit card information, otherwise the customer's account will be deleted and they'd lose all access to any games they've purchased.
Still legal, right? After all, it's in the TOS!
Still legal, right? After all, it's in the TOS!
They changed the terms so I can't participate in a class-action suit.Little Gray said:
How does this affect my already-purchased games, oh grand guru-above-all-idiots? Don't forget, if I violate the terms and they freeze my account, I can still play my games.
The only recent changes that directly affect my already-purchased games was making it so I could still play them post-freeze. I'm happy with that, as is every other sane human being.
Then they'd be evil and worse than any games corporation ever.Olrod said:
But so what? That's a theoretical scenario that will NEVER HAPPEN. And no, those terms are certainly in violation of current laws, so they'd be sued out of existence.
Try picking a hyperbole that works next time.
How odd. I found posts saying otherwise.Olrod said:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.388915-Steam-TOS-Leads-to-Trouble-in-Germany?page=2#15581238
I'm not reading the whole damn thread now, so if he's been disproved, please give me a link.
In common law countries, mostly true. In civil law countries (like Germany), that wouldn't fly. For example, in Germany, §§ 119, 138 BGB (Civil Code), basically make any contract signed erroneously (believing that it stated something other than what it actually stated) as well as one that is immoral (which is a VERY widely applied term and usually interpreted in the customer/consumer's interest) invalid.Olrod said:
Nnno.njrk97 said:wait wait let me get this straight.
The new TOS means that you cant sue them
People who don't want to agree not to sue them are now sueing them for not letting them sue them?
uhhhhh
The new TOS say consumers can't bring class action lawsuits. A class action lawsuit is a suit wherein multiple individuals bring a collective complaint against a defendant. They pool their resources to hire attorneys, lend weight to their case and split the payoff between them. This type of suit is much more effective against large companies than a lawsuit by an individual consumer, because it collectivises. It has a lot of weight (because hey, suddenly there's a hundred plaintiffs rather than just one), which means that courts, juries and the media take it that much more seriously, it encourages participation (people who wouldn't want to go through the trouble of suing valve individually might participate in a collective, streamlined action) and, through pooled resources, a class action suit can match a corporation's legal resources, improving their chance of success.
That's just one type of suit, though. Valve in general can still get their ass sued off. Particularly since the people suing aren't valve consumers, but are a consumer interest group. The people demanding these changes never signed any terms of service. They're a non-governmental agency (representing both government and non-government agencies) who police corporate practices to make sure they aren't harmful to consumers. This can include anything from false advertising to terms and conditions. And now they're going after valve.
Actually in the EU you own the game (regardless of any EULA's or altered TOS's).ResonanceSD said:
Wouldn't it be nice of the US had laws that protects the rights of consumers too? Although I don't think such a law would fly since most conservatives would just go "Nooo that's communism!"
and even if they had signed something: clauses like this, preventing customers from taking legal action, are prohibited by german law anyway. it's not legaly binding here, you can't be held to a contract that prevents you from exercising this right.Burninator said:Nnno.njrk97 said:wait wait let me get this straight.
The new TOS means that you cant sue them
People who don't want to agree not to sue them are now sueing them for not letting them sue them?
uhhhhh
The new TOS say consumers can't bring class action lawsuits. A class action lawsuit is a suit wherein multiple individuals bring a collective complaint against a defendant. They pool their resources to hire attorneys, lend weight to their case and split the payoff between them. This type of suit is much more effective against large companies than a lawsuit by an individual consumer, because it collectivises. It has a lot of weight (because hey, suddenly there's a hundred plaintiffs rather than just one), which means that courts, juries and the media take it that much more seriously, it encourages participation (people who wouldn't want to go through the trouble of suing valve individually might participate in a collective, streamlined action) and, through pooled resources, a class action suit can match a corporation's legal resources, improving their chance of success.
That's just one type of suit, though. Valve in general can still get their ass sued off. Particularly since the people suing aren't valve consumers, but are a consumer interest group. The people demanding these changes never signed any terms of service. They're a non-governmental agency (representing both government and non-government agencies) who police corporate practices to make sure they aren't harmful to consumers. This can include anything from false advertising to terms and conditions. And now they're going after valve.
furthermore, german law doesn't know class action lawsuits anway, which makes the whole thing even more silly.
I had mentioned that in an earlier post. Right now I was just differentiating between a civil suit brought by consumers and a civil suit brought by a government agency.
In any case, while class action suits don't exist in germany, wouldn't it be possible for german users of steam to participate in foreign class action suits? I'm not all that familiar with the details.
I think that's just a general ruling, more than anything. Though, interestingly, under EU law, you don't even need a license to play a game. You need a license to make copies (or to create copies from existing data, a'la downloading), but you don't need a license to play. As such, while Valve could, theoretically, charge consumer for each download of a game (by issuing licenses for a single replication to your selected hard drive), the legal framework doesn't really account for steam's distribution model. That model being that the service they provide is the ability to use the files you've downloaded.
Technically you could argue that you're paying them for a right to use their servers and data infrastructure in a way that allows you to access and play games over your steam client, but that gets complicated and unorthodox.
Which is one of the reasons german and EU courts just see this as analog to a simple purchase.
Off-topic, and not at all intending to impunge on americans as a whole, but I always have to giggle when I hear reactionary american media (here's lookin' at you, fox news) lable the democrats as "socialists" or "communists" when, by a european standard, the democrats still seem well to the right of the centre, on the whole. I'd love to see their reaction if a party like Die Linke took something like 5 or 10 percent of the seats in the House of Representatives or the Senate.
I remember reading an exchange between a Valve customer service agent and a customer who didn't want to accept the new TOS. The customer was flat out told that if they refused the new TOS, their account would be closed. I can't find it now though.
so, let's say valve DOES drop steam support in germany, hypotheticly of course...
how can the honest german citizen lawfully play something like, say, borderlands 2?
how can the honest german citizen lawfully play something like, say, borderlands 2?
Good on you lot Germany, that sort of pulling the rug out from underneath people telling them to agree to what some may find unreasonable terms and then saying if you don't agree all the shit we've sold you goes poof is ridiculous and shouldn't fly.
I hope for the best in this case.
I hope for the best in this case.
It effects your games because they have come right out and said they are gonna do whatever the hell they want and if you disagree with with them they will deactivate your account and you will lose your games.lacktheknack said:
You seem to be extremely confused since everything you say contradicts what steam has been saying.