Sued PS3 Hacker GeoHot Responds With Rap

[Therumancer]

[
The major point you're missing is that he has not duplicated any 'trade-secret'. If he was to profit from stealing a design from sony or something along those lines. Then I'd agree with you. All he has done is found out how the system works and re-opened something they closed off. Which was a legally debatable move on sony's part anyway.

Patents exist for a reason.

He's preventing Sony from controlling their own product, and potentially making money off of it. What's more he provided information on how to access the OS to people when that information was never intended for customers to have, it's just like breaking open a black box.

See, even if you argue what he did doesn't do any damage, it's still the principle of the thing, and Sony has to go after him for that reason. If they don't go after him and someone does something similar with the PS-3, they will be able to referance Sony not pursueing the matter here as permission.

Right now Geohot's big comments, even in his song, are that if Sony didn't want people to have this kind of information they should have protected it better. This is similar to saying "well if you didn't want me to know how that component worked, you should have put a better black box around it" after cracking one open.

See, on principle I think Sony have been being a group of rodents recently. As far as I'm concerned removing the "other OS" option was quite shady, and probably criminal as it was an advertised feature. However their action should be confronted on those grounds. Breaking into the system to restore features like that is also wrong, I agree with Geohot in principle, but at the same time he did step over the line, and it's really hard to say that the law shouldn't apply to him here. That would involve making the rules subjective and it would be a big problem.

I'll also be honest in saying that one of the big reasons why Sony apparently removed the other OS option was that it represented a security risk that people could use to hack into other people's PS-3 systems. The big issue was them removing the feature or locking it out, rather than finding some way to address the security hole while retaining the promised functionality. As the security hole has not been addressed, I'm quite wary about this guy passing this information around like this because I think it could also lead to the security of a lot of PS-3 systems being compromised.

Had he just restored his own system it would be one thing, but again the issue is one where he was broadcasting the information. That's also why Sony couldn't ignore him because by not addressing it they are not defending that information as being proprietary.

What's more it means Sony is effectively losing control over their own product, and they have a lot of responsibility for what is done with the PS-3. If some hacker using information from Geohot winds up hacking into people's PS-3s due to that security hole being opened up again, Sony is probably going to be the ones who wind up taking the heat for it. One of the first questions in a case of someone's children being spammed with horse porn or whatever, is going to be what Sony did to ensure the security, and not having responded to this security breach being re-opened is definatly not going to be a point in their favor.

Now yeah, Sony should have just paid whatever it cost to fix the security hole without inhibiting promised functionality, and we wouldn't be here right now, but that isn't what happened.

 

[Kajin]

Oh, god, I would pay to see GeoHot and Kevin Butler get into a rap battle.

 

[nYuknYuknYuk]

You guys are supporting Geohot? Come on guys.... find all the little loopholes you want, say he was doing it for Other OS, you know this guy is in the wrong.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

I'm seriously at a loss as to how sony won that legal battle.

I'm gonna go ahead an say it.

Everyone involved got a huge stinking bribe.

He owned the system. Unless the meaning of that has somehow changed, cracking it and then showing other people how to do the same is in no way illegal.

He owned the hardware, but he had no right to show people how to crack the software. He doesn't own the software, Sony does. That's how they won the legal battle. No one is bribing anyone here. Geohot fucked up. The EULA states that you do not own the software of the console, you have the right to use it within legal means. Geohot tampering with it and showing people how to do so allows for piracy on the PS3. The bad outweighs the good here and this rapping hacker broke the law.

Surely his not owning the software only applies to him illegally copying and distributing it.

He is bringing back a function to the system that was originally a selling point but was recently taken away.

This is the exact same battle Apple lost over jailbreaking (infact, this case should be leaning even more to the hackers innocence. Because of the whole Linux issue.) It makes no sense that Sony should now win it unless there have been law changes.

This is in no way, shape or form a fair trial.

He didn't show people how to commit an illegal act. He showed them how to regain a function that was removed. If people use that for illegal purposes then that's not his fault.

Would we blame Smith & Wesson for any person who fires a magnum in a crime? Or more accurately the person who came up with that particular models design. Or should we blame the manufacturer of the bullets?

The blame rests squarely on the people actually committing the crime.

Umm, no. He didn't show people how to get Other OS back, he showed people a security crack. He didn't specifically show people how to get back lost features, that's where your comparison fails. Also you comparing this to Apple shows that you don't know the specifics of that issue either. Apple can no longer sure for jailbreaking, but they can still stop jailbroken iPhones from functioning. Also a jailbroken iPhone leads to free apps, a "jail-broken" PS3 could lead to pirated games. It's completely different territory. This Geohot jackass didn't just jeopardize Sony, but he jeopardized everyone who puts out products for Sony. A free iPhone app isn't stealing, that's why jailbreaking iPhones is legal. No one loses anything there. Companies like Capcom, SCEA, Activision, Epic, these companies have something to worry about when the PS3's security is threatened. It's a fair trial. Geohot didn't show people how to do illegal acts but he gave them the means to do so very easily. It's not legal when you give someone the means to do crime. That's like insider trading. You can't go around sharing insider information on stocks because it hurts other companies. Your excuse can't be, " I didn't know they were going to use the stock info to make an unfair amount of money, I did it because it was market research. Geohot dug himself a hole here and it's no one's fault but his own, and if he wants to spend his time making rap videos instead of a solid defence, he really has no idea how fucked he is. The age of hackers getting hired for doing crime is over since people who can hack wind up applying for jobs exactly to stop people like Geohot, so he really doesn't have a hope for that either.

 

[Ghengis John]

In a few days Kevin Butler and his crew, Snoop Dogg and Lil' Wayne will probably counter with a crushingly gangsta' counter blow.

EDIT:

EDIT: Know what would be doubly awesome? If Sony responded with Kevin Butler doing a light, love ballet rock song. Or another rap if that's how you roll.

Okay that's two of us. You can't tell me nobody at Sony isn't thinking it.

Also, this kid sure wants a lot of attention doesn't he? What's up with that? All of a sudden he *really* seems to want to be noticed.

 

[sansamour14]

im rooting for this guy he bought the PS3 so he can do watever the hell he wants with it. hacking the PS3 to run pirated games isnt a crime until he actually plays a pirated game. IMO hes being sued for having the capability to commit a crime and not actually having done one in the first place.

 

[emion]

this dude deserve SO much credit XD he got my respect at least :3

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

I'm seriously at a loss as to how sony won that legal battle.

I'm gonna go ahead an say it.

Everyone involved got a huge stinking bribe.

He owned the system. Unless the meaning of that has somehow changed, cracking it and then showing other people how to do the same is in no way illegal.

He owned the hardware, but he had no right to show people how to crack the software. He doesn't own the software, Sony does. That's how they won the legal battle. No one is bribing anyone here. Geohot fucked up. The EULA states that you do not own the software of the console, you have the right to use it within legal means. Geohot tampering with it and showing people how to do so allows for piracy on the PS3. The bad outweighs the good here and this rapping hacker broke the law.

Surely his not owning the software only applies to him illegally copying and distributing it.

He is bringing back a function to the system that was originally a selling point but was recently taken away.

This is the exact same battle Apple lost over jailbreaking (infact, this case should be leaning even more to the hackers innocence. Because of the whole Linux issue.) It makes no sense that Sony should now win it unless there have been law changes.

This is in no way, shape or form a fair trial.

He didn't show people how to commit an illegal act. He showed them how to regain a function that was removed. If people use that for illegal purposes then that's not his fault.

Would we blame Smith & Wesson for any person who fires a magnum in a crime? Or more accurately the person who came up with that particular models design. Or should we blame the manufacturer of the bullets?

The blame rests squarely on the people actually committing the crime.

Umm, no. He didn't show people how to get Other OS back, he showed people a security crack. He didn't specifically show people how to get back lost features, that's where your comparison fails. Also you comparing this to Apple shows that you don't know the specifics of that issue either. Apple can no longer sure for jailbreaking, but they can still stop jailbroken iPhones from functioning. Also a jailbroken iPhone leads to free apps, a "jail-broken" PS3 could lead to pirated games. It's completely different territory. This Geohot jackass didn't just jeopardize Sony, but he jeopardized everyone who puts out products for Sony. A free iPhone app isn't stealing, that's why jailbreaking iPhones is legal. No one loses anything there. Companies like Capcom, SCEA, Activision, Epic, these companies have something to worry about when the PS3's security is threatened. It's a fair trial. Geohot didn't show people how to do illegal acts but he gave them the means to do so very easily. It's not legal when you give someone the means to do crime. That's like insider trading. You can't go around sharing insider information on stocks because it hurts other companies. Your excuse can't be, " I didn't know they were going to use the stock info to make an unfair amount of money, I did it because it was market research. Geohot dug himself a hole here and it's no one's fault but his own, and if he wants to spend his time making rap videos instead of a solid defence, he really has no idea how fucked he is. The age of hackers getting hired for doing crime is over since people who can hack wind up applying for jobs exactly to stop people like Geohot, so he really doesn't have a hope for that either.

A cracked console has the same functionality a linux run PS3 had, Yes it had the added ability to run pirated software. But I doubt he'd have cracked the system had sony not removed the function in the first place.

And I've got nothing against sony shutting down cracked consoles as they come accross them. Hazard of the job I suppose. Taking legal action is a step too far.

Also cydia tends to stock bootleged and immitations of appstore apps.

The legal action Sony is taking is more to please it's business partners (i.e. thrid party companies) than themselves really. How would you feel if you were Square Enix and all Sony did to stop the situation was disconnect cracked console while doing nothing about the fact that your games are still being pirated? What kind of message would it send if Sony didn't do anything considering this idiot posted his name along with the crack? This case is really to stop people from pirateing games. Killzone 3 was just leaked online, but I think people are thinking twice about pirating it because of this Geohot guy getting slammed. And again you bring up Apple. Cydia carries knock off titles, not pirated titles. HUGE difference. Stop defending this guy, he's using the same excuse that almost every hacker has used before, "I didn't know people would use it to do illegal things." It's a really him telling himself that to try and make himself feel innocent. He fucked up. Simple and plain. And really you have to make a message out of someone in order to get people to stop pirating. Especially if the idiot hands out his name and says he did it.

 

[EHKOS]

Wow, that was really good. Kids on fire.

 

[NeferX]

Heck, I think they should hire him. Make something of the situation rather than suing some kid. It would look good if Sony were the ones that extended the olive branch.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

I'm seriously at a loss as to how sony won that legal battle.

I'm gonna go ahead an say it.

Everyone involved got a huge stinking bribe.

He owned the system. Unless the meaning of that has somehow changed, cracking it and then showing other people how to do the same is in no way illegal.

He owned the hardware, but he had no right to show people how to crack the software. He doesn't own the software, Sony does. That's how they won the legal battle. No one is bribing anyone here. Geohot fucked up. The EULA states that you do not own the software of the console, you have the right to use it within legal means. Geohot tampering with it and showing people how to do so allows for piracy on the PS3. The bad outweighs the good here and this rapping hacker broke the law.

Surely his not owning the software only applies to him illegally copying and distributing it.

He is bringing back a function to the system that was originally a selling point but was recently taken away.

This is the exact same battle Apple lost over jailbreaking (infact, this case should be leaning even more to the hackers innocence. Because of the whole Linux issue.) It makes no sense that Sony should now win it unless there have been law changes.

This is in no way, shape or form a fair trial.

He didn't show people how to commit an illegal act. He showed them how to regain a function that was removed. If people use that for illegal purposes then that's not his fault.

Would we blame Smith & Wesson for any person who fires a magnum in a crime? Or more accurately the person who came up with that particular models design. Or should we blame the manufacturer of the bullets?

The blame rests squarely on the people actually committing the crime.

Umm, no. He didn't show people how to get Other OS back, he showed people a security crack. He didn't specifically show people how to get back lost features, that's where your comparison fails. Also you comparing this to Apple shows that you don't know the specifics of that issue either. Apple can no longer sure for jailbreaking, but they can still stop jailbroken iPhones from functioning. Also a jailbroken iPhone leads to free apps, a "jail-broken" PS3 could lead to pirated games. It's completely different territory. This Geohot jackass didn't just jeopardize Sony, but he jeopardized everyone who puts out products for Sony. A free iPhone app isn't stealing, that's why jailbreaking iPhones is legal. No one loses anything there. Companies like Capcom, SCEA, Activision, Epic, these companies have something to worry about when the PS3's security is threatened. It's a fair trial. Geohot didn't show people how to do illegal acts but he gave them the means to do so very easily. It's not legal when you give someone the means to do crime. That's like insider trading. You can't go around sharing insider information on stocks because it hurts other companies. Your excuse can't be, " I didn't know they were going to use the stock info to make an unfair amount of money, I did it because it was market research. Geohot dug himself a hole here and it's no one's fault but his own, and if he wants to spend his time making rap videos instead of a solid defence, he really has no idea how fucked he is. The age of hackers getting hired for doing crime is over since people who can hack wind up applying for jobs exactly to stop people like Geohot, so he really doesn't have a hope for that either.

A cracked console has the same functionality a linux run PS3 had, Yes it had the added ability to run pirated software. But I doubt he'd have cracked the system had sony not removed the function in the first place.

And I've got nothing against sony shutting down cracked consoles as they come accross them. Hazard of the job I suppose. Taking legal action is a step too far.

Also cydia tends to stock bootleged and immitations of appstore apps.

The legal action Sony is taking is more to please it's business partners (i.e. thrid party companies) than themselves really. How would you feel if you were Square Enix and all Sony did to stop the situation was disconnect cracked console while doing nothing about the fact that your games are still being pirated? What kind of message would it send if Sony didn't do anything considering this idiot posted his name along with the crack? This case is really to stop people from pirateing games. Killzone 3 was just leaked online, but I think people are thinking twice about pirating it because of this Geohot guy getting slammed. And again you bring up Apple. Cydia carries knock off titles, not pirated titles. HUGE difference. Stop defending this guy, he's using the same excuse that almost every hacker has used before, "I didn't know people would use it to do illegal things." It's a really him telling himself that to try and make himself feel innocent. He fucked up. Simple and plain. And really you have to make a message out of someone in order to get people to stop pirating. Especially if the idiot hands out his name and says he did it.

The problem is it's not really a legal issue. What he did was not really illegal. The only morally questionable part of what he did was that he showed others how to do it. He hasn't actually ripped and distributed any copyrighted material. Sony's motives are of no concern to me. What they're doing is bullshit. I'm convinced they're bribing people. It's the only way I can see it turning out the way it has.

Also Cydia carries ton's of pirated software and merchandise. Have you ever used it? There are emulators for the NES the Snes the PS1. There's probably a N64 one if you look hard enough. They certainly don't have permission to run the emulators let alone rip and distributes the game ROM's. You can get unofficial version of Quake and Doom to run on it.

That's not even mentioning the amount of songs you can download to use as ringtones. Piracy is rampant on the iPhone.

Lets just outline the logic of this argument. Geohot's hasn't pirated any software. Nor has he shown people how to pirate software. He has hacked a system he owns, allowing for homebrew to be installed.

You cannot blame him for how people use that knowledge.

You don't blame the designer of a gun for the crimes someone may commit with it.

The same logic applies here.

Your lack of knowledge about the law is really what's making your argument flawed here. As I'm sure I explained Geohot does own the hardware but he does not own the software. Otherwise he would be the on making firmware updates, not Sony. Take a read through the EULA agreement. It's as plain ad the fact that the Earth is a planet that Sony owns the software and we as consumers have purchased the right to use it not alter it. No one is getting bribed so get that fool notion out of your head. Especially if you don't know the law of the situation.

Oh, and ROMS are perfectly legal to own as long as you own the original copy of the game, otherwise you have to delete them within 24 hours of acquiring them. That's called making a back up. Also what the hell do you think the Virtual Console, PSOne Classics, and XBL Arcade re-releases are? Licensed ROM images being sold. And another thing, you can legally download and use any ROM image that is not getting any profit. That means if I want to download and play River City Ransom, (a game made in the 80s by the now defunct Technos Japan) I can do so since the original company does not exist anymore and there is no other way of buying it besides eBay.

You should stop with the gun comparison too. You can't blame gun crime on the manufacturers. Blame the shitty gun control system the U.S. has. Guns were made to kill. Most gun crimes are caused with illegally bought guns. It's not the Beretta company's fault that the store owner they send their guns to decides to sell guns underground for profit to criminals. It's not the same logic here at all. Geohot broke the EULA which is punishable by lawsuit. What part of that can't you understand?

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

Heck, I think they should hire him. Make something of the situation rather than suing some kid. It would look good if Sony were the ones that extended the olive branch.

Here's the problem with that, besides sending out the notion that people should reward crime...

The guys that make the security for the PS3 are probably guys just like Geohot that decided to use their craft to make them money rather than use it to get free games and hack. The days of hackers getting hired after a crime are over. This is because the guys with that technical know how just get jobs that require that skill. There's no need tot hire Geohot because they can just look at a pile of resumes and find guys who are just as skilled as he is but want to use their skills to make a living.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

I'm seriously at a loss as to how sony won that legal battle.

I'm gonna go ahead an say it.

Everyone involved got a huge stinking bribe.

He owned the system. Unless the meaning of that has somehow changed, cracking it and then showing other people how to do the same is in no way illegal.

He owned the hardware, but he had no right to show people how to crack the software. He doesn't own the software, Sony does. That's how they won the legal battle. No one is bribing anyone here. Geohot fucked up. The EULA states that you do not own the software of the console, you have the right to use it within legal means. Geohot tampering with it and showing people how to do so allows for piracy on the PS3. The bad outweighs the good here and this rapping hacker broke the law.

Surely his not owning the software only applies to him illegally copying and distributing it.

He is bringing back a function to the system that was originally a selling point but was recently taken away.

This is the exact same battle Apple lost over jailbreaking (infact, this case should be leaning even more to the hackers innocence. Because of the whole Linux issue.) It makes no sense that Sony should now win it unless there have been law changes.

This is in no way, shape or form a fair trial.

He didn't show people how to commit an illegal act. He showed them how to regain a function that was removed. If people use that for illegal purposes then that's not his fault.

Would we blame Smith & Wesson for any person who fires a magnum in a crime? Or more accurately the person who came up with that particular models design. Or should we blame the manufacturer of the bullets?

The blame rests squarely on the people actually committing the crime.

Umm, no. He didn't show people how to get Other OS back, he showed people a security crack. He didn't specifically show people how to get back lost features, that's where your comparison fails. Also you comparing this to Apple shows that you don't know the specifics of that issue either. Apple can no longer sure for jailbreaking, but they can still stop jailbroken iPhones from functioning. Also a jailbroken iPhone leads to free apps, a "jail-broken" PS3 could lead to pirated games. It's completely different territory. This Geohot jackass didn't just jeopardize Sony, but he jeopardized everyone who puts out products for Sony. A free iPhone app isn't stealing, that's why jailbreaking iPhones is legal. No one loses anything there. Companies like Capcom, SCEA, Activision, Epic, these companies have something to worry about when the PS3's security is threatened. It's a fair trial. Geohot didn't show people how to do illegal acts but he gave them the means to do so very easily. It's not legal when you give someone the means to do crime. That's like insider trading. You can't go around sharing insider information on stocks because it hurts other companies. Your excuse can't be, " I didn't know they were going to use the stock info to make an unfair amount of money, I did it because it was market research. Geohot dug himself a hole here and it's no one's fault but his own, and if he wants to spend his time making rap videos instead of a solid defence, he really has no idea how fucked he is. The age of hackers getting hired for doing crime is over since people who can hack wind up applying for jobs exactly to stop people like Geohot, so he really doesn't have a hope for that either.

A cracked console has the same functionality a linux run PS3 had, Yes it had the added ability to run pirated software. But I doubt he'd have cracked the system had sony not removed the function in the first place.

And I've got nothing against sony shutting down cracked consoles as they come accross them. Hazard of the job I suppose. Taking legal action is a step too far.

Also cydia tends to stock bootleged and immitations of appstore apps.

The legal action Sony is taking is more to please it's business partners (i.e. thrid party companies) than themselves really. How would you feel if you were Square Enix and all Sony did to stop the situation was disconnect cracked console while doing nothing about the fact that your games are still being pirated? What kind of message would it send if Sony didn't do anything considering this idiot posted his name along with the crack? This case is really to stop people from pirateing games. Killzone 3 was just leaked online, but I think people are thinking twice about pirating it because of this Geohot guy getting slammed. And again you bring up Apple. Cydia carries knock off titles, not pirated titles. HUGE difference. Stop defending this guy, he's using the same excuse that almost every hacker has used before, "I didn't know people would use it to do illegal things." It's a really him telling himself that to try and make himself feel innocent. He fucked up. Simple and plain. And really you have to make a message out of someone in order to get people to stop pirating. Especially if the idiot hands out his name and says he did it.

The problem is it's not really a legal issue. What he did was not really illegal. The only morally questionable part of what he did was that he showed others how to do it. He hasn't actually ripped and distributed any copyrighted material. Sony's motives are of no concern to me. What they're doing is bullshit. I'm convinced they're bribing people. It's the only way I can see it turning out the way it has.

Also Cydia carries ton's of pirated software and merchandise. Have you ever used it? There are emulators for the NES the Snes the PS1. There's probably a N64 one if you look hard enough. They certainly don't have permission to run the emulators let alone rip and distributes the game ROM's. You can get unofficial version of Quake and Doom to run on it.

That's not even mentioning the amount of songs you can download to use as ringtones. Piracy is rampant on the iPhone.

Lets just outline the logic of this argument. Geohot's hasn't pirated any software. Nor has he shown people how to pirate software. He has hacked a system he owns, allowing for homebrew to be installed.

You cannot blame him for how people use that knowledge.

You don't blame the designer of a gun for the crimes someone may commit with it.

The same logic applies here.

Your lack of knowledge about the law is really what's making your argument flawed here. As I'm sure I explained Geohot does own the hardware but he does not own the software. Otherwise he would be the on making firmware updates, not Sony. Take a read through the EULA agreement. It's as plain ad the fact that the Earth is a planet that Sony owns the software and we as consumers have purchased the right to use it not alter it. No one is getting bribed so get that fool notion out of your head. Especially if you don't know the law of the situation.

Oh, and ROMS are perfectly legal to own as long as you own the original copy of the game, otherwise you have to delete them within 24 hours of acquiring them. That's called making a back up. Also what the hell do you think the Virtual Console, PSOne Classics, and XBL Arcade re-releases are? Licensed ROM images being sold. And another thing, you can legally download and use any ROM image that is not getting any profit. That means if I want to download and play River City Ransom, (a game made in the 80s by the now defunct Technos Japan) I can do so since the original company does not exist anymore and there is no other way of buying it besides eBay.

You should stop with the gun comparison too. You can't blame gun crime on the manufacturers. Blame the shitty gun control system the U.S. has. Guns were made to kill. Most gun crimes are caused with illegally bought guns. It's not the Beretta company's fault that the store owner they send their guns to decides to sell guns underground for profit to criminals. It's not the same logic here at all. Geohot broke the EULA which is punishable by lawsuit. What part of that can't you understand?

He's only changed the code on his system though. If he owns the machine then anything on his system he is allowed to change. The most sony should be allowed to do is deny him the right to log onto the network. Or blitz his system when he updates. This is still not a court case.

You're not allowed to download and play ROM's on a phone that's not been licenced to accept them.

You'd have a hard time convincing anybody you were just making a backup of a game you already on, when the backups on a friggin phone with an emulator. I never said the ROM's themselves were the problem. It's that they're being distributed and used illegally.

The point of the analogy is that you can't blame a designer for what people do with their design. Especially when the design was not specifically engineered for criminal activity.

See he may have only changed his system, but he posted how to do it online. That's the crime right there. Court case. End of discussion. Teaching people how to alter their console is one thing, just sending it out for anyone, law abiding or not is another. he gave people the means to pirate PS3 games. That's a crime. And really it doesn't matter if he changed just his console or not, he still fucked with the software so he broke the EULA, and since he was stupid and posted his name up on the internet along with the crack, he's getting the shit. That's the price you pay.

You also need to look up ROM law. If I own a copy of Super Mario Brothers, I can play it legally on my phone. It doesn't make sense that just because a phone isn't licensed to accept them that you can't play them. The same would have to apply to computers than since PC aren't licensed to accept NES games I'm sure. And that argument kind falls flat with the Sony Xperia Play coming out in about two months.

It's not that hard to convince people you made a back up of the game is you can physically shoe them the game in your hand.


Look you can pull all the loopholes you want here but Geohot broke the PS3 EULA. Look it up online. Section 2 to be precise. That and by him posting the crack online, that's a court case for aiding and abetting criminal activity. Had he just given the code to friends in a e-mail, he would only have his console blocked from the PSN, but since he just posted it, Sony, and Federal law have reasonable evidence to take him to court.

And back to your analogy, Geohot isn't the designer of the Sony System Software for the PS3, therefore he has no right to modify it and tell people how to do so. Sony can blame Geohot for any piracy that happens now because as it stood the PS3 was the only console this gen that you couldn't pirate games for.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

I'm seriously at a loss as to how sony won that legal battle.

I'm gonna go ahead an say it.

Everyone involved got a huge stinking bribe.

He owned the system. Unless the meaning of that has somehow changed, cracking it and then showing other people how to do the same is in no way illegal.

He owned the hardware, but he had no right to show people how to crack the software. He doesn't own the software, Sony does. That's how they won the legal battle. No one is bribing anyone here. Geohot fucked up. The EULA states that you do not own the software of the console, you have the right to use it within legal means. Geohot tampering with it and showing people how to do so allows for piracy on the PS3. The bad outweighs the good here and this rapping hacker broke the law.

Surely his not owning the software only applies to him illegally copying and distributing it.

He is bringing back a function to the system that was originally a selling point but was recently taken away.

This is the exact same battle Apple lost over jailbreaking (infact, this case should be leaning even more to the hackers innocence. Because of the whole Linux issue.) It makes no sense that Sony should now win it unless there have been law changes.

This is in no way, shape or form a fair trial.

He didn't show people how to commit an illegal act. He showed them how to regain a function that was removed. If people use that for illegal purposes then that's not his fault.

Would we blame Smith & Wesson for any person who fires a magnum in a crime? Or more accurately the person who came up with that particular models design. Or should we blame the manufacturer of the bullets?

The blame rests squarely on the people actually committing the crime.

Umm, no. He didn't show people how to get Other OS back, he showed people a security crack. He didn't specifically show people how to get back lost features, that's where your comparison fails. Also you comparing this to Apple shows that you don't know the specifics of that issue either. Apple can no longer sure for jailbreaking, but they can still stop jailbroken iPhones from functioning. Also a jailbroken iPhone leads to free apps, a "jail-broken" PS3 could lead to pirated games. It's completely different territory. This Geohot jackass didn't just jeopardize Sony, but he jeopardized everyone who puts out products for Sony. A free iPhone app isn't stealing, that's why jailbreaking iPhones is legal. No one loses anything there. Companies like Capcom, SCEA, Activision, Epic, these companies have something to worry about when the PS3's security is threatened. It's a fair trial. Geohot didn't show people how to do illegal acts but he gave them the means to do so very easily. It's not legal when you give someone the means to do crime. That's like insider trading. You can't go around sharing insider information on stocks because it hurts other companies. Your excuse can't be, " I didn't know they were going to use the stock info to make an unfair amount of money, I did it because it was market research. Geohot dug himself a hole here and it's no one's fault but his own, and if he wants to spend his time making rap videos instead of a solid defence, he really has no idea how fucked he is. The age of hackers getting hired for doing crime is over since people who can hack wind up applying for jobs exactly to stop people like Geohot, so he really doesn't have a hope for that either.

A cracked console has the same functionality a linux run PS3 had, Yes it had the added ability to run pirated software. But I doubt he'd have cracked the system had sony not removed the function in the first place.

And I've got nothing against sony shutting down cracked consoles as they come accross them. Hazard of the job I suppose. Taking legal action is a step too far.

Also cydia tends to stock bootleged and immitations of appstore apps.

The legal action Sony is taking is more to please it's business partners (i.e. thrid party companies) than themselves really. How would you feel if you were Square Enix and all Sony did to stop the situation was disconnect cracked console while doing nothing about the fact that your games are still being pirated? What kind of message would it send if Sony didn't do anything considering this idiot posted his name along with the crack? This case is really to stop people from pirateing games. Killzone 3 was just leaked online, but I think people are thinking twice about pirating it because of this Geohot guy getting slammed. And again you bring up Apple. Cydia carries knock off titles, not pirated titles. HUGE difference. Stop defending this guy, he's using the same excuse that almost every hacker has used before, "I didn't know people would use it to do illegal things." It's a really him telling himself that to try and make himself feel innocent. He fucked up. Simple and plain. And really you have to make a message out of someone in order to get people to stop pirating. Especially if the idiot hands out his name and says he did it.

The problem is it's not really a legal issue. What he did was not really illegal. The only morally questionable part of what he did was that he showed others how to do it. He hasn't actually ripped and distributed any copyrighted material. Sony's motives are of no concern to me. What they're doing is bullshit. I'm convinced they're bribing people. It's the only way I can see it turning out the way it has.

Also Cydia carries ton's of pirated software and merchandise. Have you ever used it? There are emulators for the NES the Snes the PS1. There's probably a N64 one if you look hard enough. They certainly don't have permission to run the emulators let alone rip and distributes the game ROM's. You can get unofficial version of Quake and Doom to run on it.

That's not even mentioning the amount of songs you can download to use as ringtones. Piracy is rampant on the iPhone.

Lets just outline the logic of this argument. Geohot's hasn't pirated any software. Nor has he shown people how to pirate software. He has hacked a system he owns, allowing for homebrew to be installed.

You cannot blame him for how people use that knowledge.

You don't blame the designer of a gun for the crimes someone may commit with it.

The same logic applies here.

Your lack of knowledge about the law is really what's making your argument flawed here. As I'm sure I explained Geohot does own the hardware but he does not own the software. Otherwise he would be the on making firmware updates, not Sony. Take a read through the EULA agreement. It's as plain ad the fact that the Earth is a planet that Sony owns the software and we as consumers have purchased the right to use it not alter it. No one is getting bribed so get that fool notion out of your head. Especially if you don't know the law of the situation.

Oh, and ROMS are perfectly legal to own as long as you own the original copy of the game, otherwise you have to delete them within 24 hours of acquiring them. That's called making a back up. Also what the hell do you think the Virtual Console, PSOne Classics, and XBL Arcade re-releases are? Licensed ROM images being sold. And another thing, you can legally download and use any ROM image that is not getting any profit. That means if I want to download and play River City Ransom, (a game made in the 80s by the now defunct Technos Japan) I can do so since the original company does not exist anymore and there is no other way of buying it besides eBay.

You should stop with the gun comparison too. You can't blame gun crime on the manufacturers. Blame the shitty gun control system the U.S. has. Guns were made to kill. Most gun crimes are caused with illegally bought guns. It's not the Beretta company's fault that the store owner they send their guns to decides to sell guns underground for profit to criminals. It's not the same logic here at all. Geohot broke the EULA which is punishable by lawsuit. What part of that can't you understand?

He's only changed the code on his system though. If he owns the machine then anything on his system he is allowed to change. The most sony should be allowed to do is deny him the right to log onto the network. Or blitz his system when he updates. This is still not a court case.

You're not allowed to download and play ROM's on a phone that's not been licenced to accept them.

You'd have a hard time convincing anybody you were just making a backup of a game you already on, when the backups on a friggin phone with an emulator. I never said the ROM's themselves were the problem. It's that they're being distributed and used illegally.

The point of the analogy is that you can't blame a designer for what people do with their design. Especially when the design was not specifically engineered for criminal activity.

See he may have only changed his system, but he posted how to do it online. That's the crime right there. Court case. End of discussion. Teaching people how to alter their console is one thing, just sending it out for anyone, law abiding or not is another. he gave people the means to pirate PS3 games. That's a crime. And really it doesn't matter if he changed just his console or not, he still fucked with the software so he broke the EULA, and since he was stupid and posted his name up on the internet along with the crack, he's getting the shit. That's the price you pay.

You also need to look up ROM law. If I own a copy of Super Mario Brothers, I can play it legally on my phone. It doesn't make sense that just because a phone isn't licensed to accept them that you can't play them. The same would have to apply to computers than since PC aren't licensed to accept NES games I'm sure. And that argument kind falls flat with the Sony Xperia Play coming out in about two months.

It's not that hard to convince people you made a back up of the game is you can physically shoe them the game in your hand.


Look you can pull all the loopholes you want here but Geohot broke the PS3 EULA. Look it up online. Section 2 to be precise. That and by him posting the crack online, that's a court case for aiding and abetting criminal activity. Had he just given the code to friends in a e-mail, he would only have his console blocked from the PSN, but since he just posted it, Sony, and Federal law have reasonable evidence to take him to court.

And back to your analogy, Geohot isn't the designer of the Sony System Software for the PS3, therefore he has no right to modify it and tell people how to do so. Sony can blame Geohot for any piracy that happens now because as it stood the PS3 was the only console this gen that you couldn't pirate games for.

Showing people how to perform an none illegal act is now illegal. :/

You're not making a backup of you're ROM. You're downloadig it from a host that hasn't got the right to give it to you. And the Xperia play has nothing to do with this. Seeing as you will have to go through a marketplace type of app to BUY the games. How does the ability to buy games on one phone somehow justify the pirating of other games on a completely different phone?

Geohot's designed the crack. what other people do with it is not his concern.

I just completely disagree with you on this. Even if the law is on Sony's side. It's still absurd.

It's not absurd to charge people with crimes. That's like saying it's absurd to go after someone who robs banks because he donates the money to charity. It's wrong. And it's legal to download a ROM from a host if you have a copy of the game or if the game falls in to any of the other issues I stated previously. The host would get shit for putting the games up, not you in that case. Downloading ROMs from the host is for people who don't know how to make their own ROM images but still want a back up, or in the case of my friend, owns a collector's item like the original Tactics Ogre and doesn't want to open the plastic but still wants to play the game. And you completely missed the point about the Xperia Play. I was saying that your point about how phones can't be used for ROMs because they're not licensed to use them is completely false for two reasons. 1) If phones can't use them for that reason than neither should home PCs, and I've already told you about the legality of ROM images, and 2) Even if your point was correct for the phones (which it's not) then that rule is now moot with the Xperia Play.

Showing people how to crack the PS3(thus showing them how to break the PS3 EULA) is illegal. Stop defending this guy. I never said he was a pirate, but he's still in idiot for doing what he did so carelessly. I wouldn't have as big a problem with him if he didn't release his name along with the crack and he was actually serious about this situation. He's going to court and he's busy making rap videos. The severity of the situation will hit him as soon as he sees the amount of zeros Sony wants from him for this. I just never found that defending hackers was logical.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

I'm seriously at a loss as to how sony won that legal battle.

I'm gonna go ahead an say it.

Everyone involved got a huge stinking bribe.

He owned the system. Unless the meaning of that has somehow changed, cracking it and then showing other people how to do the same is in no way illegal.

He owned the hardware, but he had no right to show people how to crack the software. He doesn't own the software, Sony does. That's how they won the legal battle. No one is bribing anyone here. Geohot fucked up. The EULA states that you do not own the software of the console, you have the right to use it within legal means. Geohot tampering with it and showing people how to do so allows for piracy on the PS3. The bad outweighs the good here and this rapping hacker broke the law.

Surely his not owning the software only applies to him illegally copying and distributing it.

He is bringing back a function to the system that was originally a selling point but was recently taken away.

This is the exact same battle Apple lost over jailbreaking (infact, this case should be leaning even more to the hackers innocence. Because of the whole Linux issue.) It makes no sense that Sony should now win it unless there have been law changes.

This is in no way, shape or form a fair trial.

He didn't show people how to commit an illegal act. He showed them how to regain a function that was removed. If people use that for illegal purposes then that's not his fault.

Would we blame Smith & Wesson for any person who fires a magnum in a crime? Or more accurately the person who came up with that particular models design. Or should we blame the manufacturer of the bullets?

The blame rests squarely on the people actually committing the crime.

Umm, no. He didn't show people how to get Other OS back, he showed people a security crack. He didn't specifically show people how to get back lost features, that's where your comparison fails. Also you comparing this to Apple shows that you don't know the specifics of that issue either. Apple can no longer sure for jailbreaking, but they can still stop jailbroken iPhones from functioning. Also a jailbroken iPhone leads to free apps, a "jail-broken" PS3 could lead to pirated games. It's completely different territory. This Geohot jackass didn't just jeopardize Sony, but he jeopardized everyone who puts out products for Sony. A free iPhone app isn't stealing, that's why jailbreaking iPhones is legal. No one loses anything there. Companies like Capcom, SCEA, Activision, Epic, these companies have something to worry about when the PS3's security is threatened. It's a fair trial. Geohot didn't show people how to do illegal acts but he gave them the means to do so very easily. It's not legal when you give someone the means to do crime. That's like insider trading. You can't go around sharing insider information on stocks because it hurts other companies. Your excuse can't be, " I didn't know they were going to use the stock info to make an unfair amount of money, I did it because it was market research. Geohot dug himself a hole here and it's no one's fault but his own, and if he wants to spend his time making rap videos instead of a solid defence, he really has no idea how fucked he is. The age of hackers getting hired for doing crime is over since people who can hack wind up applying for jobs exactly to stop people like Geohot, so he really doesn't have a hope for that either.

A cracked console has the same functionality a linux run PS3 had, Yes it had the added ability to run pirated software. But I doubt he'd have cracked the system had sony not removed the function in the first place.

And I've got nothing against sony shutting down cracked consoles as they come accross them. Hazard of the job I suppose. Taking legal action is a step too far.

Also cydia tends to stock bootleged and immitations of appstore apps.

The legal action Sony is taking is more to please it's business partners (i.e. thrid party companies) than themselves really. How would you feel if you were Square Enix and all Sony did to stop the situation was disconnect cracked console while doing nothing about the fact that your games are still being pirated? What kind of message would it send if Sony didn't do anything considering this idiot posted his name along with the crack? This case is really to stop people from pirateing games. Killzone 3 was just leaked online, but I think people are thinking twice about pirating it because of this Geohot guy getting slammed. And again you bring up Apple. Cydia carries knock off titles, not pirated titles. HUGE difference. Stop defending this guy, he's using the same excuse that almost every hacker has used before, "I didn't know people would use it to do illegal things." It's a really him telling himself that to try and make himself feel innocent. He fucked up. Simple and plain. And really you have to make a message out of someone in order to get people to stop pirating. Especially if the idiot hands out his name and says he did it.

The problem is it's not really a legal issue. What he did was not really illegal. The only morally questionable part of what he did was that he showed others how to do it. He hasn't actually ripped and distributed any copyrighted material. Sony's motives are of no concern to me. What they're doing is bullshit. I'm convinced they're bribing people. It's the only way I can see it turning out the way it has.

Also Cydia carries ton's of pirated software and merchandise. Have you ever used it? There are emulators for the NES the Snes the PS1. There's probably a N64 one if you look hard enough. They certainly don't have permission to run the emulators let alone rip and distributes the game ROM's. You can get unofficial version of Quake and Doom to run on it.

That's not even mentioning the amount of songs you can download to use as ringtones. Piracy is rampant on the iPhone.

Lets just outline the logic of this argument. Geohot's hasn't pirated any software. Nor has he shown people how to pirate software. He has hacked a system he owns, allowing for homebrew to be installed.

You cannot blame him for how people use that knowledge.

You don't blame the designer of a gun for the crimes someone may commit with it.

The same logic applies here.

Your lack of knowledge about the law is really what's making your argument flawed here. As I'm sure I explained Geohot does own the hardware but he does not own the software. Otherwise he would be the on making firmware updates, not Sony. Take a read through the EULA agreement. It's as plain ad the fact that the Earth is a planet that Sony owns the software and we as consumers have purchased the right to use it not alter it. No one is getting bribed so get that fool notion out of your head. Especially if you don't know the law of the situation.

Oh, and ROMS are perfectly legal to own as long as you own the original copy of the game, otherwise you have to delete them within 24 hours of acquiring them. That's called making a back up. Also what the hell do you think the Virtual Console, PSOne Classics, and XBL Arcade re-releases are? Licensed ROM images being sold. And another thing, you can legally download and use any ROM image that is not getting any profit. That means if I want to download and play River City Ransom, (a game made in the 80s by the now defunct Technos Japan) I can do so since the original company does not exist anymore and there is no other way of buying it besides eBay.

You should stop with the gun comparison too. You can't blame gun crime on the manufacturers. Blame the shitty gun control system the U.S. has. Guns were made to kill. Most gun crimes are caused with illegally bought guns. It's not the Beretta company's fault that the store owner they send their guns to decides to sell guns underground for profit to criminals. It's not the same logic here at all. Geohot broke the EULA which is punishable by lawsuit. What part of that can't you understand?

He's only changed the code on his system though. If he owns the machine then anything on his system he is allowed to change. The most sony should be allowed to do is deny him the right to log onto the network. Or blitz his system when he updates. This is still not a court case.

You're not allowed to download and play ROM's on a phone that's not been licenced to accept them.

You'd have a hard time convincing anybody you were just making a backup of a game you already on, when the backups on a friggin phone with an emulator. I never said the ROM's themselves were the problem. It's that they're being distributed and used illegally.

The point of the analogy is that you can't blame a designer for what people do with their design. Especially when the design was not specifically engineered for criminal activity.

See he may have only changed his system, but he posted how to do it online. That's the crime right there. Court case. End of discussion. Teaching people how to alter their console is one thing, just sending it out for anyone, law abiding or not is another. he gave people the means to pirate PS3 games. That's a crime. And really it doesn't matter if he changed just his console or not, he still fucked with the software so he broke the EULA, and since he was stupid and posted his name up on the internet along with the crack, he's getting the shit. That's the price you pay.

You also need to look up ROM law. If I own a copy of Super Mario Brothers, I can play it legally on my phone. It doesn't make sense that just because a phone isn't licensed to accept them that you can't play them. The same would have to apply to computers than since PC aren't licensed to accept NES games I'm sure. And that argument kind falls flat with the Sony Xperia Play coming out in about two months.

It's not that hard to convince people you made a back up of the game is you can physically shoe them the game in your hand.


Look you can pull all the loopholes you want here but Geohot broke the PS3 EULA. Look it up online. Section 2 to be precise. That and by him posting the crack online, that's a court case for aiding and abetting criminal activity. Had he just given the code to friends in a e-mail, he would only have his console blocked from the PSN, but since he just posted it, Sony, and Federal law have reasonable evidence to take him to court.

And back to your analogy, Geohot isn't the designer of the Sony System Software for the PS3, therefore he has no right to modify it and tell people how to do so. Sony can blame Geohot for any piracy that happens now because as it stood the PS3 was the only console this gen that you couldn't pirate games for.

Showing people how to perform an none illegal act is now illegal. :/

You're not making a backup of you're ROM. You're downloadig it from a host that hasn't got the right to give it to you. And the Xperia play has nothing to do with this. Seeing as you will have to go through a marketplace type of app to BUY the games. How does the ability to buy games on one phone somehow justify the pirating of other games on a completely different phone?

Geohot's designed the crack. what other people do with it is not his concern.

I just completely disagree with you on this. Even if the law is on Sony's side. It's still absurd.

It's not absurd to charge people with crimes. That's like saying it's absurd to go after someone who robs banks because he donates the money to charity. It's wrong. And it's legal to download a ROM from a host if you have a copy of the game or if the game falls in to any of the other issues I stated previously. The host would get shit for putting the games up, not you in that case. Downloading ROMs from the host is for people who don't know how to make their own ROM images but still want a back up, or in the case of my friend, owns a collector's item like the original Tactics Ogre and doesn't want to open the plastic but still wants to play the game. And you completely missed the point about the Xperia Play. I was saying that your point about how phones can't be used for ROMs because they're not licensed to use them is completely false for two reasons. 1) If phones can't use them for that reason than neither should home PCs, and I've already told you about the legality of ROM images, and 2) Even if your point was correct for the phones (which it's not) then that rule is now moot with the Xperia Play.

Showing people how to crack the PS3(thus showing them how to break the PS3 EULA) is illegal. Stop defending this guy. I never said he was a pirate, but he's still in idiot for doing what he did so carelessly. I wouldn't have as big a problem with him if he didn't release his name along with the crack and he was actually serious about this situation. He's going to court and he's busy making rap videos. The severity of the situation will hit him as soon as he sees the amount of zeros Sony wants from him for this. I just never found that defending hackers was logical.

I never said that ROM's are illegal on all phones. I said that the iphone is not officially licenced to play ROM's. Which is isn't. Nothing to do with the Xperia.

ROM's are intended to be played on the PC in most cases. Are you actually saying that someone making an emulator for the iPhone and then uploading ton's of games for people to download without paying the creators for is not piracy? Because I think more or less everyone else in the world would like a word with you.

I'm going to keep defending the guy because he hasn't done anything wrong. Regaining functionality that was taken away is no reprehensible in my book.

Again with the regaining functionality excuse. I'm sorry but that doesn't cut it. Especially when his crack can lead to piracy. If it was just to regain a lost function then why can did Geohot make sure that, that's all the crack could do? Why didn't he just keep it for himself and only send it to friends or people he could trust? Why did he have to post the crack online? You can't tell me that just because he did to regain a lost function that he should be exempt from the law. That's asinine. He's not being charged with regaining a lost function. Get that through your head. He is being charged with contributing the the violation of the DMCA and breaking the EULA. You know what he did was wrong, and stupid. He had a logical case as one of the original iPhone jailbreakers but seriously, posting the root key for the PS3 online was stupid. Especially right on his website. And I never said that uploading tones of ROMs for download isn't piracy. Again that's you trying to put words in my mouth to make a stupid argument. There are lots of legal ways to download ROMs, ways in which I'm may as well explain to you for the third time because you're being thick headed. Uploading ROMs you don't own is illegal. I know that. But if the original company is out of business, then the ROM is perfectly free to upload and download legally. It's not piracy if no one is making money off of it. If you can tell me that most of the original developers who made NES/Genesis/SNES games are still making money off of their games, then I must be in some alternate universe. Or a Timelord. Technos Japan doesn't exist anymore for example. Therefore me downloading River City Ransom is perfectly fine. Me owning a copy of Super Mario Bros and downloading it on my phone. Legal. Me downloading Ocarina of Time while not owning a copy. Illegal due to it being on the Virtual console & coming out on the 3DS. If you can find me a copy of River City Ransom in a store today, I'll eat my words.

And if you can tell me that Geohot distributing a crack that is in direct violation of both the DMCA, the PS3 EULA, and federal law, isn't going to result in piracy, then I'll eat my hat too. Take your flawed logic and actually read up on the laws of both piracy and ROMs.

 

[Atmos Duality]

As far as Geohot's own crimes go, it sounds like he definitively violated copyright (distributing software you do not own, etc, this is nothing new.) and everything else is just the usual business.

I'm hoping this doesn't set a new precedent that states that companies can do whatever the fuck they want to your system after you've purchased it. You may not own the copyright for the software or the patents for the hardware, but you are permitted to run any software you want on it as long as it doesn't violate other laws.

Sony cannot arbitrarily state that the PS3's hardware can only run that software, no matter how hard they try. That violates trade law, and in part because their product is still a product.
It would be like saying I couldn't choose what operating system I want for a new computer; and ultimately, the PS3 is just another computer.

They can terminate/restrict access to their services.

My major issue here is that Sony violated the law first (trade laws, specifically), but the precedent is being established in another case related to it where Sony is certain to win.

Hell, under this new precedent, (if I were Sony) I could alter the EULA in the next patch that says your PS3 will become unusable unless you give me 5 cents each time you log on (because now it's a service, not a product, and I can do that with a service agreement) and you cannot do anything with it unless you log onto PSN.

It would piss off everyone and be corporate suicide, but what could anyone do about it? We've already established that this practice is within Sony's rights.
This hypothetical situation is but a demonstration of the powers being granted to Sony.
It's, at best, a Yes or No proposition.

 

[Woe Is You]

Again with the regaining functionality excuse. I'm sorry but that doesn't cut it. Especially when his crack can lead to piracy. If it was just to regain a lost function then why can did Geohot make sure that, that's all the crack could do? Why didn't he just keep it for himself and only send it to friends or people he could trust? Why did he have to post the crack online? You can't tell me that just because he did to regain a lost function that he should be exempt from the law. That's asinine. He's not being charged with regaining a lost function. Get that through your head. He is being charged with contributing the the violation of the DMCA and breaking the EULA. You know what he did was wrong, and stupid. He had a logical case as one of the original iPhone jailbreakers but seriously, posting the root key for the PS3 online was stupid. Especially right on his website. And I never said that uploading tones of ROMs for download isn't piracy. Again that's you trying to put words in my mouth to make a stupid argument. There are lots of legal ways to download ROMs, ways in which I'm may as well explain to you for the third time because you're being thick headed. Uploading ROMs you don't own is illegal. I know that. But if the original company is out of business, then the ROM is perfectly free to upload and download legally. It's not piracy if no one is making money off of it. If you can tell me that most of the original developers who made NES/Genesis/SNES games are still making money off of their games, then I must be in some alternate universe. Or a Timelord. Technos Japan doesn't exist anymore for example. Therefore me downloading River City Ransom is perfectly fine. Me owning a copy of Super Mario Bros and downloading it on my phone. Legal. Me downloading Ocarina of Time while not owning a copy. Illegal due to it being on the Virtual console & coming out on the 3DS. If you can find me a copy of River City Ransom in a store today, I'll eat my words.

And if you can tell me that Geohot distributing a crack that is in direct violation of both the DMCA, the PS3 EULA, and federal law, isn't going to result in piracy, then I'll eat my hat too. Take your flawed logic and actually read up on the laws of both piracy and ROMs.

Actually, the firmware he uploaded didn't play pirate games. It was modified afterwards to do that by other parties but Geohot's firmware in itself did not run illegal software.

As for "downloading Super Mario Bros for your phone", even if you own the cartridge, well... that's quite illegal too. Super Mario Bros is sold in the Virtual Console and the fact that you own the cartridge doesn't make it any more legal for you to download a rom of it off a site that hosts them illegally. River City Ransom is also on Virtual Console.

And violating the EULA? Well, shrinkwrap contracts are practically void themselves since you have to purchase the device first before being given the contract. That isn't how most contracts work.

For the record, I'm not advocating piracy here but I am pretty tired of Sony's ways of handling their crap. I'm not really happy about them including a rootkit in PS3 and I wasn't really happy when I bought music and ended up getting a rootkit from them then. The handling of the whole geohot lawsuit in general is just more bullshit to the mix.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

I'm seriously at a loss as to how sony won that legal battle.

I'm gonna go ahead an say it.

Everyone involved got a huge stinking bribe.

He owned the system. Unless the meaning of that has somehow changed, cracking it and then showing other people how to do the same is in no way illegal.

He owned the hardware, but he had no right to show people how to crack the software. He doesn't own the software, Sony does. That's how they won the legal battle. No one is bribing anyone here. Geohot fucked up. The EULA states that you do not own the software of the console, you have the right to use it within legal means. Geohot tampering with it and showing people how to do so allows for piracy on the PS3. The bad outweighs the good here and this rapping hacker broke the law.

Surely his not owning the software only applies to him illegally copying and distributing it.

He is bringing back a function to the system that was originally a selling point but was recently taken away.

This is the exact same battle Apple lost over jailbreaking (infact, this case should be leaning even more to the hackers innocence. Because of the whole Linux issue.) It makes no sense that Sony should now win it unless there have been law changes.

This is in no way, shape or form a fair trial.

He didn't show people how to commit an illegal act. He showed them how to regain a function that was removed. If people use that for illegal purposes then that's not his fault.

Would we blame Smith & Wesson for any person who fires a magnum in a crime? Or more accurately the person who came up with that particular models design. Or should we blame the manufacturer of the bullets?

The blame rests squarely on the people actually committing the crime.

Umm, no. He didn't show people how to get Other OS back, he showed people a security crack. He didn't specifically show people how to get back lost features, that's where your comparison fails. Also you comparing this to Apple shows that you don't know the specifics of that issue either. Apple can no longer sure for jailbreaking, but they can still stop jailbroken iPhones from functioning. Also a jailbroken iPhone leads to free apps, a "jail-broken" PS3 could lead to pirated games. It's completely different territory. This Geohot jackass didn't just jeopardize Sony, but he jeopardized everyone who puts out products for Sony. A free iPhone app isn't stealing, that's why jailbreaking iPhones is legal. No one loses anything there. Companies like Capcom, SCEA, Activision, Epic, these companies have something to worry about when the PS3's security is threatened. It's a fair trial. Geohot didn't show people how to do illegal acts but he gave them the means to do so very easily. It's not legal when you give someone the means to do crime. That's like insider trading. You can't go around sharing insider information on stocks because it hurts other companies. Your excuse can't be, " I didn't know they were going to use the stock info to make an unfair amount of money, I did it because it was market research. Geohot dug himself a hole here and it's no one's fault but his own, and if he wants to spend his time making rap videos instead of a solid defence, he really has no idea how fucked he is. The age of hackers getting hired for doing crime is over since people who can hack wind up applying for jobs exactly to stop people like Geohot, so he really doesn't have a hope for that either.

A cracked console has the same functionality a linux run PS3 had, Yes it had the added ability to run pirated software. But I doubt he'd have cracked the system had sony not removed the function in the first place.

And I've got nothing against sony shutting down cracked consoles as they come accross them. Hazard of the job I suppose. Taking legal action is a step too far.

Also cydia tends to stock bootleged and immitations of appstore apps.

The legal action Sony is taking is more to please it's business partners (i.e. thrid party companies) than themselves really. How would you feel if you were Square Enix and all Sony did to stop the situation was disconnect cracked console while doing nothing about the fact that your games are still being pirated? What kind of message would it send if Sony didn't do anything considering this idiot posted his name along with the crack? This case is really to stop people from pirateing games. Killzone 3 was just leaked online, but I think people are thinking twice about pirating it because of this Geohot guy getting slammed. And again you bring up Apple. Cydia carries knock off titles, not pirated titles. HUGE difference. Stop defending this guy, he's using the same excuse that almost every hacker has used before, "I didn't know people would use it to do illegal things." It's a really him telling himself that to try and make himself feel innocent. He fucked up. Simple and plain. And really you have to make a message out of someone in order to get people to stop pirating. Especially if the idiot hands out his name and says he did it.

The problem is it's not really a legal issue. What he did was not really illegal. The only morally questionable part of what he did was that he showed others how to do it. He hasn't actually ripped and distributed any copyrighted material. Sony's motives are of no concern to me. What they're doing is bullshit. I'm convinced they're bribing people. It's the only way I can see it turning out the way it has.

Also Cydia carries ton's of pirated software and merchandise. Have you ever used it? There are emulators for the NES the Snes the PS1. There's probably a N64 one if you look hard enough. They certainly don't have permission to run the emulators let alone rip and distributes the game ROM's. You can get unofficial version of Quake and Doom to run on it.

That's not even mentioning the amount of songs you can download to use as ringtones. Piracy is rampant on the iPhone.

Lets just outline the logic of this argument. Geohot's hasn't pirated any software. Nor has he shown people how to pirate software. He has hacked a system he owns, allowing for homebrew to be installed.

You cannot blame him for how people use that knowledge.

You don't blame the designer of a gun for the crimes someone may commit with it.

The same logic applies here.

Your lack of knowledge about the law is really what's making your argument flawed here. As I'm sure I explained Geohot does own the hardware but he does not own the software. Otherwise he would be the on making firmware updates, not Sony. Take a read through the EULA agreement. It's as plain ad the fact that the Earth is a planet that Sony owns the software and we as consumers have purchased the right to use it not alter it. No one is getting bribed so get that fool notion out of your head. Especially if you don't know the law of the situation.

Oh, and ROMS are perfectly legal to own as long as you own the original copy of the game, otherwise you have to delete them within 24 hours of acquiring them. That's called making a back up. Also what the hell do you think the Virtual Console, PSOne Classics, and XBL Arcade re-releases are? Licensed ROM images being sold. And another thing, you can legally download and use any ROM image that is not getting any profit. That means if I want to download and play River City Ransom, (a game made in the 80s by the now defunct Technos Japan) I can do so since the original company does not exist anymore and there is no other way of buying it besides eBay.

You should stop with the gun comparison too. You can't blame gun crime on the manufacturers. Blame the shitty gun control system the U.S. has. Guns were made to kill. Most gun crimes are caused with illegally bought guns. It's not the Beretta company's fault that the store owner they send their guns to decides to sell guns underground for profit to criminals. It's not the same logic here at all. Geohot broke the EULA which is punishable by lawsuit. What part of that can't you understand?

He's only changed the code on his system though. If he owns the machine then anything on his system he is allowed to change. The most sony should be allowed to do is deny him the right to log onto the network. Or blitz his system when he updates. This is still not a court case.

You're not allowed to download and play ROM's on a phone that's not been licenced to accept them.

You'd have a hard time convincing anybody you were just making a backup of a game you already on, when the backups on a friggin phone with an emulator. I never said the ROM's themselves were the problem. It's that they're being distributed and used illegally.

The point of the analogy is that you can't blame a designer for what people do with their design. Especially when the design was not specifically engineered for criminal activity.

See he may have only changed his system, but he posted how to do it online. That's the crime right there. Court case. End of discussion. Teaching people how to alter their console is one thing, just sending it out for anyone, law abiding or not is another. he gave people the means to pirate PS3 games. That's a crime. And really it doesn't matter if he changed just his console or not, he still fucked with the software so he broke the EULA, and since he was stupid and posted his name up on the internet along with the crack, he's getting the shit. That's the price you pay.

You also need to look up ROM law. If I own a copy of Super Mario Brothers, I can play it legally on my phone. It doesn't make sense that just because a phone isn't licensed to accept them that you can't play them. The same would have to apply to computers than since PC aren't licensed to accept NES games I'm sure. And that argument kind falls flat with the Sony Xperia Play coming out in about two months.

It's not that hard to convince people you made a back up of the game is you can physically shoe them the game in your hand.


Look you can pull all the loopholes you want here but Geohot broke the PS3 EULA. Look it up online. Section 2 to be precise. That and by him posting the crack online, that's a court case for aiding and abetting criminal activity. Had he just given the code to friends in a e-mail, he would only have his console blocked from the PSN, but since he just posted it, Sony, and Federal law have reasonable evidence to take him to court.

And back to your analogy, Geohot isn't the designer of the Sony System Software for the PS3, therefore he has no right to modify it and tell people how to do so. Sony can blame Geohot for any piracy that happens now because as it stood the PS3 was the only console this gen that you couldn't pirate games for.

Showing people how to perform an none illegal act is now illegal. :/

You're not making a backup of you're ROM. You're downloadig it from a host that hasn't got the right to give it to you. And the Xperia play has nothing to do with this. Seeing as you will have to go through a marketplace type of app to BUY the games. How does the ability to buy games on one phone somehow justify the pirating of other games on a completely different phone?

Geohot's designed the crack. what other people do with it is not his concern.

I just completely disagree with you on this. Even if the law is on Sony's side. It's still absurd.

It's not absurd to charge people with crimes. That's like saying it's absurd to go after someone who robs banks because he donates the money to charity. It's wrong. And it's legal to download a ROM from a host if you have a copy of the game or if the game falls in to any of the other issues I stated previously. The host would get shit for putting the games up, not you in that case. Downloading ROMs from the host is for people who don't know how to make their own ROM images but still want a back up, or in the case of my friend, owns a collector's item like the original Tactics Ogre and doesn't want to open the plastic but still wants to play the game. And you completely missed the point about the Xperia Play. I was saying that your point about how phones can't be used for ROMs because they're not licensed to use them is completely false for two reasons. 1) If phones can't use them for that reason than neither should home PCs, and I've already told you about the legality of ROM images, and 2) Even if your point was correct for the phones (which it's not) then that rule is now moot with the Xperia Play.

Showing people how to crack the PS3(thus showing them how to break the PS3 EULA) is illegal. Stop defending this guy. I never said he was a pirate, but he's still in idiot for doing what he did so carelessly. I wouldn't have as big a problem with him if he didn't release his name along with the crack and he was actually serious about this situation. He's going to court and he's busy making rap videos. The severity of the situation will hit him as soon as he sees the amount of zeros Sony wants from him for this. I just never found that defending hackers was logical.

I never said that ROM's are illegal on all phones. I said that the iphone is not officially licenced to play ROM's. Which is isn't. Nothing to do with the Xperia.

ROM's are intended to be played on the PC in most cases. Are you actually saying that someone making an emulator for the iPhone and then uploading ton's of games for people to download without paying the creators for is not piracy? Because I think more or less everyone else in the world would like a word with you.

I'm going to keep defending the guy because he hasn't done anything wrong. Regaining functionality that was taken away is no reprehensible in my book.

Again with the regaining functionality excuse. I'm sorry but that doesn't cut it. Especially when his crack can lead to piracy. If it was just to regain a lost function then why can did Geohot make sure that, that's all the crack could do? Why didn't he just keep it for himself and only send it to friends or people he could trust? Why did he have to post the crack online? You can't tell me that just because he did to regain a lost function that he should be exempt from the law. That's asinine. He's not being charged with regaining a lost function. Get that through your head. He is being charged with contributing the the violation of the DMCA and breaking the EULA. You know what he did was wrong, and stupid. He had a logical case as one of the original iPhone jailbreakers but seriously, posting the root key for the PS3 online was stupid. Especially right on his website. And I never said that uploading tones of ROMs for download isn't piracy. Again that's you trying to put words in my mouth to make a stupid argument. There are lots of legal ways to download ROMs, ways in which I'm may as well explain to you for the third time because you're being thick headed. Uploading ROMs you don't own is illegal. I know that. But if the original company is out of business, then the ROM is perfectly free to upload and download legally. It's not piracy if no one is making money off of it. If you can tell me that most of the original developers who made NES/Genesis/SNES games are still making money off of their games, then I must be in some alternate universe. Or a Timelord. Technos Japan doesn't exist anymore for example. Therefore me downloading River City Ransom is perfectly fine. Me owning a copy of Super Mario Bros and downloading it on my phone. Legal. Me downloading Ocarina of Time while not owning a copy. Illegal due to it being on the Virtual console & coming out on the 3DS. If you can find me a copy of River City Ransom in a store today, I'll eat my words.

And if you can tell me that Geohot distributing a crack that is in direct violation of both the DMCA, the PS3 EULA, and federal law, isn't going to result in piracy, then I'll eat my hat too. Take your flawed logic and actually read up on the laws of both piracy and ROMs.

I said Cydia hosts emulators and ROM's. That is piracy. You were arguing that you can't pirate stuff from cydia. I'm not interested in an ethical debate about ROM's and accepted practice for downloading them. Cydia is still used for piracy. Meaning my point stands.

I am going to keep defending him. But I really can't be bothered with this any-more.

It's the same argument. Either both jailbreaking and PS3 cracking are illegal or neither are.

It's not an ethical debate of ROMs that I'm debating here. It's the fact that you haven't read up on the laws regarding ROM download. I never said you can't pirate from Cydia. I was talking about ROM law. If you want to keep an argument stop coming up with points I never said. You just can't seem to keep a point together here.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

Again with the regaining functionality excuse. I'm sorry but that doesn't cut it. Especially when his crack can lead to piracy. If it was just to regain a lost function then why can did Geohot make sure that, that's all the crack could do? Why didn't he just keep it for himself and only send it to friends or people he could trust? Why did he have to post the crack online? You can't tell me that just because he did to regain a lost function that he should be exempt from the law. That's asinine. He's not being charged with regaining a lost function. Get that through your head. He is being charged with contributing the the violation of the DMCA and breaking the EULA. You know what he did was wrong, and stupid. He had a logical case as one of the original iPhone jailbreakers but seriously, posting the root key for the PS3 online was stupid. Especially right on his website. And I never said that uploading tones of ROMs for download isn't piracy. Again that's you trying to put words in my mouth to make a stupid argument. There are lots of legal ways to download ROMs, ways in which I'm may as well explain to you for the third time because you're being thick headed. Uploading ROMs you don't own is illegal. I know that. But if the original company is out of business, then the ROM is perfectly free to upload and download legally. It's not piracy if no one is making money off of it. If you can tell me that most of the original developers who made NES/Genesis/SNES games are still making money off of their games, then I must be in some alternate universe. Or a Timelord. Technos Japan doesn't exist anymore for example. Therefore me downloading River City Ransom is perfectly fine. Me owning a copy of Super Mario Bros and downloading it on my phone. Legal. Me downloading Ocarina of Time while not owning a copy. Illegal due to it being on the Virtual console & coming out on the 3DS. If you can find me a copy of River City Ransom in a store today, I'll eat my words.

And if you can tell me that Geohot distributing a crack that is in direct violation of both the DMCA, the PS3 EULA, and federal law, isn't going to result in piracy, then I'll eat my hat too. Take your flawed logic and actually read up on the laws of both piracy and ROMs.

Actually, the firmware he uploaded didn't play pirate games. It was modified afterwards to do that by other parties but Geohot's firmware in itself did not run illegal software.

As for "downloading Super Mario Bros for your phone", even if you own the cartridge, well... that's quite illegal too. Super Mario Bros is sold in the Virtual Console and the fact that you own the cartridge doesn't make it any more legal for you to download a rom of it off a site that hosts them illegally. River City Ransom is also on Virtual Console.

And violating the EULA? Well, shrinkwrap contracts are practically void themselves since you have to purchase the device first before being given the contract. That isn't how most contracts work.

For the record, I'm not advocating piracy here but I am pretty tired of Sony's ways of handling their crap. I'm not really happy about them including a rootkit in PS3 and I wasn't really happy when I bought music and ended up getting a rootkit from them then. The handling of the whole geohot lawsuit in general is just more bullshit to the mix.

Look up the specific laws on ROMs. It's not illegal to download ROMs in several different circumstances. And the EULA may not be how most contracts work but calling it a shrink-warp contract doesn't work now that it's online to read for free. So it's not void. That and Geohot violated the DMCA which is federal law. Also the firmware Geohot put up may not have allowed for pirating directly but it essentially paved the way for it on the PS3. This essentially is aiding and abbetting in piracy.

I don't get how Sony is handling the situation poorly. They're actually doing something about it. I don't understand why anyone who tries to do something about potential piracy gets hated instantly. What would you have Sony do? They have to show their business partners, i.e. people like Capcom Squeenix,etc , that they won't just let people download their games for free.

 

[Woe Is You]

Look up the specific laws on ROMs. It's not illegal to download ROMs in several different circumstances. And the EULA may not be how most contracts work but calling it a shrink-warp contract doesn't work now that it's online to read for free. So it's not void. That and Geohot violated the DMCA which is federal law. Also the firmware Geohot put up may not have allowed for pirating directly but it essentially paved the way for it on the PS3. This essentially isaiding and abbetting in piracy.

I don't get how Sony is handling the situation poorly. They're actually doing something about it. I don't understand why anyone who tries to do something about potential piracy gets hated instantly. What would you have Sony do? They have to show their business partners, i.e. people like Capcom Squeenix,etc , that they won't just let people download their games for free.

I did check the (US) laws and I'm pretty sure you're confusing morals with actual laws here. The fact that Nintendo sells Super Mario Bros through the Virtual Console basically makes it illegal for you to download it off a ROM site. Same goes for that ROM of River City Ransom. It doesn't matter if Tecnos Japan doesn't exist if someone with the rights to the game sells it.

Your question was, though, "If it was just to regain a lost function then why can did Geohot make sure that, that's all the crack could do?". My answer was that that it was essentially all it could do. His hack needed to be modified for any pirated games to be played on a PS3.

As for how Sony is handling this poorly: well, if you're telling me installing software on my devices that stealthily phone home isn't a poor way of dealing with this issue, well, what is a poor way of dealing with it? This happened with Sony BMG and that's essentially what OFW 3.56 is. Suing Geohot in California when he's in New Jersey is also either dumb or a delay tactic to make the lawsuit last as long as possible.

As an aside, I have to say I consider walled gardens and draconian DRM that phones home causing far worse problems than anything piracy has ever done. Think of it like this: 3.56 introduced a way for Sony to silently run any code they want to on your PS3. They probably won't use it to delete files or scan your family pictures. But what might happen is that someone figures out how to run whatever code they want and run it on any PS3 with 3.56. Sony basically introduced a fatal security flaw under the guise of protecting their property. And it has a good chance of biting them in the ass in the long run.