Swedish Courts: Imaginary Children Aren't Real

[Charli]

Don't like that kind of stuff, still glad the guy got off.

(See you can dislike something without being a self righteous ass, world. Stop thrusting your dick of opinion onto everyone else without properly considering the ramifications and restrictions your ill constructed beliefs will sow.)

I am quoting you for two reasons.

Primarily, because you read my mind.

But the other reason? You deserve a fucking internet medal. Your post should be incorporated into the forum rules and stickied for all time. You ser, are a gentleman and a scholar.

Oh thank god I thought everyone was just pretending not to make eye contact with me for awful jokes.

And awwyeah time to break out the top hat and faux mustache.

 

[zehydra]

Imaginary kids are not real?


You should probably tell the United States that next.

? It's legal here...

Nope.

Christopher Handley, the Iowa man on trial for possessing manga "drawings of children being sexually abused," was sentenced on Thursday to six months in prison. Following this sentence, Handley must serve three years of supervised release and five years of probation. Both of these terms will start upon his release from prison and will run concurrently. Handley also agreed to forfeit all seized materials, including his computer. During Handley's supervised release and probation, Handley must also "participate in a treatment program, to include psychological testing and a polygraph examination, as directed by the U. S. Probation Officer."

huh. Was that a state or federal court case?

 

[Eri]

Imaginary kids are not real?


You should probably tell the United States that next.

? It's legal here...

Nope.

Christopher Handley, the Iowa man on trial for possessing manga "drawings of children being sexually abused," was sentenced on Thursday to six months in prison. Following this sentence, Handley must serve three years of supervised release and five years of probation. Both of these terms will start upon his release from prison and will run concurrently. Handley also agreed to forfeit all seized materials, including his computer. During Handley's supervised release and probation, Handley must also "participate in a treatment program, to include psychological testing and a polygraph examination, as directed by the U. S. Probation Officer."

huh. Was that a state or federal court case?

The plaintiff is listed "United States of America". His manga was found by the USPS, and he was arrested by federal authorities and tried under a federal judge.

 

[zehydra]

Imaginary kids are not real?


You should probably tell the United States that next.

? It's legal here...

Nope.

Christopher Handley, the Iowa man on trial for possessing manga "drawings of children being sexually abused," was sentenced on Thursday to six months in prison. Following this sentence, Handley must serve three years of supervised release and five years of probation. Both of these terms will start upon his release from prison and will run concurrently. Handley also agreed to forfeit all seized materials, including his computer. During Handley's supervised release and probation, Handley must also "participate in a treatment program, to include psychological testing and a polygraph examination, as directed by the U. S. Probation Officer."

huh. Was that a state or federal court case?

The plaintiff is listed "United States of America". His manga was found by the USPS, and he was arrested by federal authorities and tried under a federal judge.

huh. Well I'm not into lolicon myself, but this is kind of bizarre. I mean I understand where they're coming from, (it can be argued that viewing lolicon/shotacon can inspire fantasies to engage with real children), but I don't think there is much data to support that argument.

I hate my govt.

 

[BrotherRool]

As a scientist you must be aware of two major things, level of confidence and Bias. If a test does not pass a certain bar (95% confidence) it is not considered significant. This idea runs through science, in one form or another. When they say inconclusive results, they litterally mean that that confidence limit was not reached. In more physical sciences they would have to stop speaking at that point, results not significant end. However, as it is about behaviour they will still highlight a few things. They degree to which trends are looked at and depth of analysis are afected by the second thing, Bias. You see, once they decide to look at a result that did not pass the significance test, both the positive possiblity and negative possiblity both have the same same strength, but the one that fits their hypothesis will be looked at (n this case the negative). Hence Bias.
Further, the topic of masturbation and pornography have always caused a massive rift in societies all over the wrold. It is reasonable to think that the people performing these investigations would find themselves wittingly or unwittingly subject to the same rifting.

To sum up, if it is inconclusive then it is not a significant result. As a result, none of the trends observed can be considered more likely than their opposite possiblity. Trying to suggest any one possiblity is more likely would require that possiblity to produce a significant result. Hence discussing such is a sign of intentional or unintentional bias in the investigation.

I'm pretty sure I'm the one who described the studies as inconclusive, not the studies themselves and I'm merely a trainee mathematician and I can confidently inform you I was not using the word in a professional sense

Saying that, my opinion has only strengthened, that despite what the studies say, they are inconclusive and the subject matter is too controversial to easily see a way through and I'm currently at the point where no statements can be made either way. I was responding to some people who were telling me that it was obvious that masturbation and pornography reduces this sort of thing, whereas actually it's not at all obvious and the opposite may be true equally.

 

[Enthuril]

There was a time when men would marry girls who had just reached puberty. Those men would be called pedophiles today.

Isn't that technically ephebophilia(sp?)? I thought the hallmark of pedophilia was pre-pubescence...

I was under the impression that under 18 = pedophilia. Isn't that the way it is treated?

Legally, yes, but by definition no.

"Legally" is what counts. I think it would be less emotionally charged if people realized their own ancestors were likely guilty of what the law calls a pedophile today.

Yeah, but that in itself can be countered when you make the point of lower life expectancies. Because, you know, if people die earlier they're doing to need to be sexually active earlier.

I understand the reasons behind why it was the norm back then. My point is that when people talk of pedophilia as some sort of mental sickness, they are wrong. It is socially unacceptable but that changes from time to time and culture to culture.

In other words, I am fine with pedophilia being a crime. I am not fine with how people overreact to it. Wanting cruel and unusual punishment for people is an example of overreaction.

People need to see it for what it is, a crime that has not always been a crime.

It's more like... People need to realise that paedophiles aren't what they are out of choice, but are instead born and develop that way. People who actually go out of their way to have sex and such with children are deserving of such harsh punishments, but I feel it depends on the severity of it. For example, if someone were to have sex with someone who has already gone through puberty then it is a more natural sexual attraction and unless the person was not consenting they are less in the wrong than someone who has had sex with a prepubescent child.

I can agree with most of what you say but why does a person who has sex with children deserve to be castrated, beat by an angry crowd, raped and beaten in prison or any other cruel and unusual punishments that emotionally charged people can come up with?

People who call for cruel and unusual punishments, well it says more about them than the criminal.

I think castration is hardly a bad punishment as it'd completely kill their sex drive and render them unable to carry out the offence, however that's the kind of thing that should only be done in extreme cases if at all because it's the right of every person to be able to breed and have children. Anything else is completely unreasonable though, they should be treated as people who have committed any other crime.

Well, I disagree, even in extreme cases because then someone (or a bunch of internet someones) would be suggestion we cut off hands for stealing in extreme cases like car theft.

I also think I should I point out how wrong I think the sex offender registry is. The idea that a sexual criminal should be punished for the rest of their life is ridiculous and yet it's the overreaction of paranoid people that created and maintains the registry.

I find the registry wrong because of privacy issues more than anything. Even if they were taken off of it after a number of years, it directly places them in danger and removes them of a lot of privacy.

Are first offenders placed on there or are people placed on the list for multiple offenses?

To my knowledge, first offenders are. But I could be wrong, so it may be best to ask someone more knowledgeable about the issue.

 

[repeating integers]

Cuz simulated child porn, isn't child porn... it's only simulated, so not real... so not actionable, but just as sick... if not more.

Fuck that noise.

Burn the infidel.

If they were drawn pictures of your little sister, it would be okay, right?

Wrong.

What are you saying, exactly?

 

[Lugbzurg]

Well, the court system certainly seems to be in order, but, the whole "reason for arrest" thing still needs some tweaking.

Yeah, I don't like what he drew, at all. But, that's no reason for trying to throw him in jail. He drew lines around on a piece of paper. LINES ON A PIECE OF PAPER. Nothing actually happens, it's pencil lead and ink that has been lightly stroked on a sheet of paper. How is that fundamentally-different from the giant golden cupcake I just drew?

 

[Epona]

Well, the court system certainly seems to be in order, but, the whole "reason for arrest" thing still needs some tweaking.

Yeah, I don't like what he drew, at all. But, that's no reason for trying to throw him in jail. He drew lines around on a piece of paper. LINES ON A PIECE OF PAPER. Nothing actually happens, it's pencil lead and ink that has been lightly stroked on a sheet of paper. How is that fundamentally-different from the giant golden cupcake I just drew?

Be careful, drawing a giant cupcake could convince people to eat cupcakes and then obesity will be on your shoulders. CRIMINAL, SEIZE HIM!

 

[loa]

Good.
I hope that guy got some adequate compensation for the government almost ruining his life because it can't get its shit together?

 

[JediMB]

In both trials, the prosecution argued that the images Lundström possessed could be used to entice children into performing sexual acts, and that real children could have been used as models for the drawings. I'm going to assume that last argument sounded marginally less insane in the original Swedish.

I would actually have to say that the translation to English managed to tone down the insanity of the original statement. It was very hard to believe that someone actually said these things.

 

[Callate]

"...could be used to entice children into performing sexual acts"? Shouldn't they ban buying adult pornography and candy at the same time, then?

I'm glad to hear the court reached this decision; I think it was the right one. It's a little ridiculous to think you could be charged with a crime for what you do with paper and pen, even if no one except you and a police officer ever sees it.

 

[theultimateend]

so I can others can continue watching messed up hentai?

YAY!

Now Japan just needs to explain why cartoons are censored?

Though I suppose you could argue simulated violence having age restrictions is just as silly.

Cuz simulated child porn, isn't child porn... it's only simulated, so not real... so not actionable, but just as sick... if not more.

Fuck that noise.

Burn the infidel.

If they were drawn pictures of your little sister, it would be okay, right?

Wrong.

What are you saying, exactly?

They want you to argue with them by saying something so retarded you can't ignore it.

I would hazard that you should just ignore them. They have nothing of value to say and are doing what the internet calls "Trolling".

 

[nathan-dts]

This guy will be ridiculed for the rest of his life. I don't like what he's into, but this shouldn't have gotten this far. A simple background check for all his future jobs will fuck him over for life.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Imaginary kids are not real?


You should probably tell the United States that next.

? It's legal here...

Nope.

Christopher Handley, the Iowa man on trial for possessing manga "drawings of children being sexually abused," was sentenced on Thursday to six months in prison. Following this sentence, Handley must serve three years of supervised release and five years of probation. Both of these terms will start upon his release from prison and will run concurrently. Handley also agreed to forfeit all seized materials, including his computer. During Handley's supervised release and probation, Handley must also "participate in a treatment program, to include psychological testing and a polygraph examination, as directed by the U. S. Probation Officer."

huh. Was that a state or federal court case?

The plaintiff is listed "United States of America". His manga was found by the USPS, and he was arrested by federal authorities and tried under a federal judge.

huh. Well I'm not into lolicon myself, but this is kind of bizarre. I mean I understand where they're coming from, (it can be argued that viewing lolicon/shotacon can inspire fantasies to engage with real children), but I don't think there is much data to support that argument.

I hate my govt.

What he got convicted for was breaking obscenity laws by importing his manga from Japan, which apparently is worse since there's some law against obtaining obscene material through commerce or something. They basically opened up his packages or w/e and found the manga in it and then arrested him based on that.


It had nothing to do with this debate about drawn characters being real or not or advocating pedophilia or not. It just had to do with the situations in the manga being obscene or not (which apparently, they were) and the fact that it's illegal to have obscene stuff obtained through international commerce.

 

[Alar]

so I can others can continue watching messed up hentai?

YAY!

Amen, brother. Amen.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

Cuz simulated child porn, isn't child porn... it's only simulated, so not real... so not actionable, but just as sick... if not more.

Fuck that noise.

Burn the infidel.

If they were drawn pictures of your little sister, it would be okay, right?

Wrong.

Spoiler

Sorry, had to be done. My brain wouldn't shut up until I did it.

 

[Evil Smurf]

First page and the comments section isn't swarming with loli pics yet, I must admit I'm surprised.

we don't want to get banned

 

[SEXTON HALE]

It must have taken a lot of head scratching to work this one out I mean really who woulda guessed it.
Joking aside I think if the guy ended up in court for those pictures there was definatly something going on in them that should'nt have been.
I makes me wonder how bad those pictures really were.

 

[Pikeperch]

For those interested and capable of reading swedish (if you can't you could always try to find a friendly scandinavian nearby) the detailed verdict can be found at this link: http://www.hogstadomstolen.se/Domstolar/hogstadomstolen/Avgoranden/2012/2012-06-15%20B%20990-11%20Dom.pdf

In short, the court found that 38 of the 39 images clearly do not depict any real molestation and criminalising the possession of them would violate freedom of information and expression.

The 39th drawing was apparently found to be realistic enough to be punishable in other circumstances, but because of his profession as a translator and manga expert it was deemed that possession of it was justified.