Sword Fighting in Games Is Dull

[Ziggy]

It has always pulled me out of a game when what looks like it would be a lethal hit only takes off a chunk of health instead of just killing someone outright.

if you want realism in games, fights vs armored dudes would be a nightmare. don't belive me look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTQrJ_axfc

 

[ReverendJ]

We could always simply hope for another Bushido Blade, or a similar game where one sword strike to the head or body can full well be fatal, where a strike to the arm renders it useless and if your leg gets hit you'll be limping around for the rest of the match.

Beat me to it. Go hunt down the Bushido Blade games, they're what you're looking for. They're a bit dated, and the graphics are laughable by modern standards, but hot damn, what swordplay...!

 

[maninahat]

Zeno Clash is sort of a first person beat-em-up version of this system, and is very satisfying. "vigour" and "endurance" both play equivalent roles.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

It has always pulled me out of a game when what looks like it would be a lethal hit only takes off a chunk of health instead of just killing someone outright.

if you want realism in games, fights vs armored dudes would be a nightmare. don't belive me look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTQrJ_axfc

Oh I know, but there is still ways around them. Clawed hammers were developed specifically for fights against plate armored opponents.

 

[Ziggy]

It has always pulled me out of a game when what looks like it would be a lethal hit only takes off a chunk of health instead of just killing someone outright.

if you want realism in games, fights vs armored dudes would be a nightmare. don't belive me look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTQrJ_axfc

Oh I know, but there is still ways around them. Clawed hammers were developed specifically for fights against plate armored opponents.

is that the one with a spike (can't remember) because if it is then you will only have one chance and then it will be stuck in the armor.
but thinking about it, a game where the most terrifying thing you will meet is ONE man in full plate armor could be fun

 

[Soviet Heavy]

It has always pulled me out of a game when what looks like it would be a lethal hit only takes off a chunk of health instead of just killing someone outright.

if you want realism in games, fights vs armored dudes would be a nightmare. don't belive me look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTQrJ_axfc

Oh I know, but there is still ways around them. Clawed hammers were developed specifically for fights against plate armored opponents.

is that the one with a spike (can't remember) because if it is then you will only have one chance and then it will be stuck in the armor.
but thinking about it, a game where the most terrifying thing you will meet is ONE man in full plate armor could be fun

So most of the game is spent fighting conscripts and levies in only crude mail or leather padding, with Nobles wearing full plate being elite soldiers?

That would be pretty neat.

 

[CAPTCHA]

Check out the Mount&Blade series(specifically Warband), it uses a melee system fairly close to what you describe.

it's extremely hard to master, the Multiplayer scene has the biggest difficulty ramp-up i've seen in any game. ex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG0YM35goSE

I was going to sugesst this. Mount and Blade's combat system is pretty close to the real thing.

 

[flaming_squirrel]

So most of the game is spent fighting conscripts and levies in only crude mail or leather padding, with Nobles wearing full plate being elite soldiers?

That would be pretty neat.

That's not even particularly realistic though, leather was never used as body protection in medieval Europe as it provides 0 protection against weaponry.
Same with swords (generally speaking, there are exceptions) they were not used as a primary weapon, truly realistic battles would be pretty dull as you'd most likely be using nothing more then a bill or perhaps poleaxe.

Oh and Mount&Blade is pretty awesome, even if the vanilla singleplayer is horribly broken in terms of progression. Some mods out there really improve on this though, just downloaded one which is set in early medieval Britain.

 

[ElPatron]

Optimize it for multiple enemies at the same time.

A mix of Prince of Persia: Sands of Time's acrobatic moves and Two Thrones's sword fighting with some epic CQC moves from Metal Gear Solid (in the way they are quick time events that are solely optional and are not a "Press X to not die" bull).

Then some wolverine style claws that can be used for stabbing like in AC or climb certain kinds of walls, or just shot out of the wrist like a ballistic knife... that also works as a grappling hook.



Because I don't care for realism in sword fighting anyway.

 

[skywolfblue]

#1. Animations.
Leave hits on the body for killing moves or slashes. Instead of whacking at someone until they fall over, make the animations show blocks and parries whenever you attack. Instead of chipping away at someone's health, you are beating down their defense. Slashing, dodging, blocking with a shield all look really damn cool.

This not only looks a hell of a lot cooler than just beating a guy like a stead tenderizer, but it also makes more sense. It is about making it through their defensive wall and getting a killing blow in past their guard. That makes the kill all the more satisfying.

Having your enemy parry or block your attacks isn't very fun. (at least in my experience)

Assassin's Creed 2 had some enemies that parried nearly every attack. Meaning you had to beat on them to wear them down enough to hit. I didn't like it at all. When an enemy parries or blocks, there is no visual impact that says "Yes, you're succeeding", instead it's a big loud clang which says to the player "You failed". Build up a lot of those, and it becomes extremely frustrating to the player.

Also, I'd rather have a system that rewards a player for being agile. Sliding around the enemy to hit the weak points, instead of just bashing repeatedly head on at a heavily armored opponent until the enemies "fatigue" kicks in.

 

[Lunar Templar]

Spoiler

And yes, the pun in the title is intentional. Sword fighting in games of hack and slash or RPGs is really boring most of the time. It feels like you are clubbing someone to death with a dull blade (see? It was intentional!) rather than slashing and thrusting with a deadly weapon.

It has always pulled me out of a game when what looks like it would be a lethal hit only takes off a chunk of health instead of just killing someone outright.

With this in mind, I've come up with a system that could make combat more lethal without making it look dumber in the process.

#1. Animations.
Leave hits on the body for killing moves or slashes. Instead of whacking at someone until they fall over, make the animations show blocks and parries whenever you attack. Instead of chipping away at someone's health, you are beating down their defense. Slashing, dodging, blocking with a shield all look really damn cool.

This not only looks a hell of a lot cooler than just beating a guy like a stead tenderizer, but it also makes more sense. It is about making it through their defensive wall and getting a killing blow in past their guard. That makes the kill all the more satisfying.

#2. Momentum, Endurance, Vigor
Instead of a health bar, you have three values to take into account: Momentum, Endurance, and Vigor.
Momentum
Momentum stands in for Damage. Any weapon can be lethal, so placing a numerical value on it makes no sense. Instead, give each weapon a level of momentum. Momentum reflects how much pressure you can put onto your opponent as you wail on his guard, representing the aggression of your attack.

For example, a morning star would be a weapon with high momentum. To be used effectively, you need to keep the pressure on, swinging the ball and chain in a constant motion in order to land a hit. This amount of momentum allows for more damaging hits.

On the opposite end is a dagger. It has a lower momentum due to the lightweight nature of the weapon. It is harder to put up a constant attack like the morning star achieves, but it is counterbalanced by the other two values.

Vigor
Vigor acts like your mana bar, or how long you can hold up an attack. Using the morning star example, it has very high momentum, but its weight and awkwardness limit your amount of vigor you can use. This makes the weapon better for shock attacks to overwhelm an enemy quickly, but it is not well designed for prolonged combat, as your vigor drains very fast while using it.

The dagger works better here, as it is lightweight, and easy to handle. This makes it better to use in longer attacks, whittling down an opponent over time. It has a higher vigor pool, allowing it to last longer in a fight.

Endurance
Endurance is how long you can last before getting hit and killed. Depending on your equipment, Endurance can be affected in different ways. Using a shield and heavy armor gives you a high endurance, but they affect your vigor due to their weight. So armour allows you to last longer in a fight, but you have to fight smarter due to the limits it puts on your vigor.

Contrasting is light armor such as leather. It gives you less endurance, but also more vigor, since it is lighter.

Endurance can recharge, much like how in real life we can catch our breath. So you have to juggle how hard you go on the attack, lowering your vigor, which leaves you more open to counterattack adversely affecting your Endurance. When to commit and when to play defensive is key.

Putting them all together
So the gameplay works through how these three values affect each other, altering how you play. Do you use a high momentum weapon with heavy armor, making you lethal on the first attack, but much more vulnerable in the follow up? Or do you use lightweight equipment allowing you to attack further, but you are less able to defend yourself?

Attacks
First of all, no quicktime events. You have three attacks: Horizontal, Vertical, and Lunge. Horizontal attacks work well with less momentum weapons like daggers or knives, slashing swiftly to whittle down their endurance. Vertical attacks work well with the morning star due to the high momentum, using the crushing power to your advantage. Lunges are very risky: you stand the chance to kill an enemy outright, but you could also over exert yourself, resulting in a big hit to your endurance if they counter you while you are extended.

I'm still working on how this would all be applied in the context of gameplay, but I wondered what you guys thought of it first. Please leave comments on what you think works and what could be improved.

sounds like you want a 'realistic' sword/melee weapon combat game and there's nothing wrong with that, hell probably be the ONLY way to get me to play a 'realistic game', but i digress.

but what about dismemberment and a lesser extent limb damage? another thing is bleeding out, a lot of the medieval weapons where really good at causing uncontrollable bleeding

 

[alrekr]

How about Mount and blade or Dark Messiah. Will post video links in a moment.

 

[lord.jeff]

I would like to see a a handful of games do realistic sword fighting or realistic melee of any kind but only that hand full because I don't think it be very fun over several games and I like being able to dash my way through ten enemies at once.

 

[Terminal Blue]

That's not even particularly realistic though, leather was never used as body protection in medieval Europe as it provides 0 protection against weaponry.

Cuir boulli, leather boiled to give it rigidity, was used for armour frequently. Leather can also be used as a backing for scales, which may themselves be made from cuir boulli. A leather under-armour, or buff coat, was also quite common in late medieval armour and more than capable of stopping a slashing sword or certain types of blunt trauma.

Bear in mind that linen cloth was used for armour in the medieval period. A leather or canvas faced multi-layered cloth jacket was far, far better than going into battle in your pants.

 

[Psycho78]

The bunny fighting game Overgrowth has potential: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgYR37WX-vc&feature=related

 

[Dansen]

Dark souls has excellent melee combat. Your stats and weapons provide you with multiple options when fighting an enemy. It also addresses momentum a bit as attacks that only graze an enemy do less damage and enemies less prone to being staggered.

Seriously, go rent Dark souls if you want to see how to do good melee combat.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Sword fighting simulators then? Not sure there is a big market for that.

But I agree that most games need a melee combat update, Assassins Creed had big plans for this but then they let the cattle in for play testing and they couldn't figure out how more then one button could be pressed at any one time.

 

[LarenzoAOG]

Boy you guys haven't played Dead Island I take it.... the weapons have solid weight to them you can sever several parts of limbs, so if you want to cut the leg off at the knee or the ankle, both are possible... you can break bones including necks, arms, legs, back, and the zombies all react quite realistically to them...

Nothing is as fun as breaking both a zombie's arms with a sledgehammer and then watching him flail around at you....

Assassin's Creed games are also pretty good in that regard, the only time your weapon makes contact with an actual enemy is during a kill animation, when doing damage to an enemy you see them block, but the momentum pushes them around and the blocks are eratic, as opposed to when your attack doesn't do damage, the enemy easily deflects your weapon.

Now if only it wasn't a counter heavy snooze fest.

 

[Yopaz]

Play Ninja Gaiden. The swords there really cut. I never get bored of seeing people lose one leg before I cut of their arm and their head in one movement afterwards. It's hilarious.

 

[flaming_squirrel]

That's not even particularly realistic though, leather was never used as body protection in medieval Europe as it provides 0 protection against weaponry.

Cuir boulli, leather boiled to give it rigidity, was used for armour frequently. Leather can also be used as a backing for scales, which may themselves be made from cuir boulli. A leather under-armour, or buff coat, was also quite common in late medieval armour and more than capable of stopping a slashing sword or certain types of blunt trauma.

Bear in mind that linen cloth was used for armour in the medieval period. A leather or canvas faced multi-layered cloth jacket was far, far better than going into battle in your pants.

Wasn't cuir boulli still used alongside steel plating though? Leather works as padding and for attachment but as major bodily protection will do very little to stop a solid blow.
Linen padded gambesons were used as padding underneath more significant protection like a brigandine or coat of plates as otherwise blunt trauma would be a problem, but again does little to stop a blow by itself (especially bladed ones, for obvious reasons).
Soft clothing had its uses, but infantry were expected to be issued with more significant protection in mid-late medieval times, even chainmail is insufficient against most things.

Dark souls has excellent melee combat. Your stats and weapons provide you with multiple options when fighting an enemy. It also addresses momentum a bit as attacks that only graze an enemy do less damage and enemies less prone to being staggered.

Seriously, go rent Dark souls if you want to see how to do good melee combat.

Also liked how enviroment had a big effect on weapons as well, using a zweihander in close quarters is gimped by how huge it, etc. Now if only they can bring out the patch fixing stat scaling to be less crap..