Sword Fighting in Games Is Dull

[Tharwen]

Check out the Mount&Blade series(specifically Warband), it uses a melee system fairly close to what you describe.

it's extremely hard to master, the Multiplayer scene has the biggest difficulty ramp-up i've seen in any game. ex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG0YM35goSE

I was going to sugesst this. Mount and Blade's combat system is pretty close to the real thing.

Except that you can stand still with the weapon over your head and enemies will still try to beat through it.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

#1. Animations.
Leave hits on the body for killing moves or slashes. Instead of whacking at someone until they fall over, make the animations show blocks and parries whenever you attack. Instead of chipping away at someone's health, you are beating down their defense. Slashing, dodging, blocking with a shield all look really damn cool.

This not only looks a hell of a lot cooler than just beating a guy like a stead tenderizer, but it also makes more sense. It is about making it through their defensive wall and getting a killing blow in past their guard. That makes the kill all the more satisfying.

Having your enemy parry or block your attacks isn't very fun. (at least in my experience)

Assassin's Creed 2 had some enemies that parried nearly every attack. Meaning you had to beat on them to wear them down enough to hit. I didn't like it at all. When an enemy parries or blocks, there is no visual impact that says "Yes, you're succeeding", instead it's a big loud clang which says to the player "You failed". Build up a lot of those, and it becomes extremely frustrating to the player.

Also, I'd rather have a system that rewards a player for being agile. Sliding around the enemy to hit the weak points, instead of just bashing repeatedly head on at a heavily armored opponent until the enemies "fatigue" kicks in.

This is why the animation is so important. You need to see that you are wearing him down. Show your opponent getting pressured. I'm talking about flowing combat. I know what you are saying though, seeing a combo get interrupted by an obnoxious controller rumble when someone blocks you is frustrating.

That's not what I'm aiming for though. Yes he's blocking you, but the more you hit him, the slower he goes until his guard breaks and you run him through with your weapon. More flowing combat than a chain that is interrupted by a parry.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

[snip!]
yup your right.

This was more or less my thought. Put some steel between a guy's ears in Assassin's Creed and he's down, not getting back up. Slip it between his armor, into his neck, at a pinch in his sides, or parry his sword and stab him in the face? Yeah, all of that effectively kills a dude. Even most of the bosses can be insta-killed, if you have the right angle, surprise, and all that. Though, they are significantly less effective against you, since you can more or less absorb and shrug off a broadsword to the face, but hey, I'll take it.

 

[RandV80]

I still need to try Mount & Blade, but there was a PC game that while it needed some refinement had sword fighting down right was Die by the Sword, and it's expansion Limb from Limb.

Unfortunately with the skill it required the learning curve was pretty high making it too difficult for most people to bother with, so it never went anywhere.

For more recent games the sword fighting sport in Wii-Sports resort is actually pretty good, which could be used as a template for an actual game, though I found one flaw in it. If you're strike is blocked then you get bounced back and are thrown off balance for a second, which really reduces the flow of the combat. It's actually kind of a necessary mechanic, as it forcibly compensates for a lack of force feedback by inserting a 1 second grey zone where it disconnects you're motion from control the onscreen character. Again it may be necessary but it breaks up the flow of combat and isn't realistic.

I believe this could be improved if the game doesn't throw your character off balance if you the player upon being blocked halt your motion within a reasonable zone of control and disengage in a realistic manner that your on screen avatar can follow. Yahtzee always says that motion controls can never work without force feedback, but for sword fighting this isn't true. You just have to condition the player to react in a realistic manner that can be replicated on screen. Die by the Sword did this, while you could take full control of the sword arm with the mouse you had to be in synch with the character, moving at a steady pace that the onscreen arm could follow. 'Flailing' the mouse around would be interpreted as gibberish and got you no where.

 

[Xkaliber]

"Sword Fighting in Games Is Dull"

How appropriate. You fight like a cow.

Really though, the OP does have a point. Most games simply don't handle melee weaponry or fighting methods with any of the actual feel, style or reward. Even Soul Calibur, which is pretty much centred around sword (and other melee weapon) combat doesn't adhere to or recognise much that relates to real combat.

 

[TheDooD]

So you want an RPG with Swordplay that's like the Soul Series, SoulCalibur, Bushido Blade with a taste of Assassin's Creed for daggers, light weapons and such. You have a great concept, you just have factor weapon mastery, armor, mobility / footwork and of course thrown weapons.

 

[captaincabbage]

It seems kind of strange to say so, but I think the swordplay in Assassin's Creed has actually gotten worse as the series has progressed. I still think AC1 has the best swordplay I've played in a game, with actually feeling dangerous (the first times you fight at least) when you engage a bunch of guards in a fight. Overall the key feeling of AC1 was that if you mistimed a swing, or just hacked and slashed wildly like a dumbass then you were gonna get fucked up fast.

It's pretty bizarre that the swordplay has actually gotten less engaging as the newer games have come out, with it being less about tense dodging and parrying, and more about "HOLY SHIT I JUST THREW A BATTLEAXE AT A GUYS FACE!!!" combat.

I would personally lov to see a Japanese Ass Creed game, since I think it has the potential to make the swordplay faster and more deadly than previous games.

 

[Nieroshai]

I can't imagine a gameplay style any duller than wailing on a shield until the enemy gets too tired to hold it up. When damage is calculated for weapons, they're expecting that when yoou attack, you are attacking with a specific weapon at a specific speed with a certain level of endurance. They just simplify it down to an average damage amount. The whole dealing with defenses and geetting around them thing really couldn't be implemented without motion controls because a button press will always attack in one way and will always target one hit box. Also, currently swordplay is one of the more exciting combat methods left in gaming, mostly because there is a visceral connectt and an either powerful or stylish-looking attack animation. And enemies do block, sometimes to an annoying amount. Judging by your post, though, you should really play D&D. Your ability to overcome enemy defenses is determined by your stats in addition to a roll reepresenting your accuracy and speed vs their dexterity and armor, and damage is determined by type of weapon, force transferred through the attack represented by your damage roll, and even critical hits that emulate the best possible strike you could have possibly landed with your weapon.

 

[Phlakes]

It feels like you are clubbing someone to death with a dull blade (see? It was intentional!) rather than slashing and thrusting with a deadly weapon.

Actually, outside of ludicrously sharp katanas, swords were basically used as clubs with extra stabbing potential. The clean-slicing blade is pretty much romanticized.

But I still agree. Video games aren't realistic anyway, and melee combat has always sucked lots of balls.

I've actually had ideas about this for years. To be as brief as possible, it works almost like Punch-Out. Click and you'll bring back the weapon, and move the mouse in a direction to swing. Do this varied and repeatedly and the enemy will slip up on his guarding, letting you get partial hits that basically work as a stamina replacement for a big-ass life bar. Once you've broken their guard enough, you can land actual hits which would be answered by bone-crushing and blood, and your opponent screaming and promptly dying. Also, an AssCreed style counter system where hitting the attack button as their weapon makes contact does a counter.

 

[Alexias_Sandar]

Try playing Bushido Blade 1. It's got a lot of crippling wounds and the like, and is pretty solid. Though it's no RPG. Though...admittedly the honor system BS is...rubbish. Bushido Blade 2 also is solid, but...it's combat isn't as good, though the art's improved.

 

[Ironic Pirate]

It has always pulled me out of a game when what looks like it would be a lethal hit only takes off a chunk of health instead of just killing someone outright.

if you want realism in games, fights vs armored dudes would be a nightmare. don't belive me look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTQrJ_axfc

Oh I know, but there is still ways around them. Clawed hammers were developed specifically for fights against plate armored opponents.

is that the one with a spike (can't remember) because if it is then you will only have one chance and then it will be stuck in the armor.
but thinking about it, a game where the most terrifying thing you will meet is ONE man in full plate armor could be fun

So most of the game is spent fighting conscripts and levies in only crude mail or leather padding, with Nobles wearing full plate being elite soldiers?

That would be pretty neat.

That's kind of like Mount and Blade. You'll always be able to find enemy lords, they'll be the one surrounded by the corpses of your soldiers.

That's why I'm a horse archer. They can't fight so well with a couple arrows sticking out of their head.

 

[AD-Stu]

Boy you guys haven't played Dead Island I take it.... the weapons have solid weight to them you can sever several parts of limbs, so if you want to cut the leg off at the knee or the ankle, both are possible... you can break bones including necks, arms, legs, back, and the zombies all react quite realistically to them...

Nothing is as fun as breaking both a zombie's arms with a sledgehammer and then watching him flail around at you....

Assassin's Creed games are also pretty good in that regard, the only time your weapon makes contact with an actual enemy is during a kill animation, when doing damage to an enemy you see them block, but the momentum pushes them around and the blocks are eratic, as opposed to when your attack doesn't do damage, the enemy easily deflects your weapon.

Now if only it wasn't a counter heavy snooze fest.

^ this. I've only really played the first Assassin's Creed, but it struck me that there was all sorts of cool stuff you could do between dodging, grappling and whatever else. Then the reality set in that once you're facing more than one opponent, the entire thing is pretty much reduced to counters. At least they varied the animations a bit I guess...

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

We could always simply hope for another Bushido Blade, or a similar game where one sword strike to the head or body can full well be fatal, where a strike to the arm renders it useless and if your leg gets hit you'll be limping around for the rest of the match.

That's actually what I came in here to say. SovietHeavy pretty much described Bushido Blade in his OP. Since nobody is making games like that right now, though, there's also the option of playing Soul Calibur with the handicaps set so that one hit is an instant KO. It's not quite as well suited to that sort of gameplay as Bushido Blade, but it is highly entertaining.

 

[The Madman]

As so many others have said, give Mount & Blade a try. It really is the best melee combat sim out there. Not only with the basic mechanics such as blocking or parrying, but that the game even takes things like weapon momentum and armour into account. That's why getting in close against an opponent with larger two handed weapons is a must and why even the dullest weapon is a thing to be feared if it's being swung at you from the back of a charging horse.

If I had to find something to complain about it's the animations, which are pretty good all things considered but still pretty stiff. But then for an indie game developed by a husband and wife team in turkey I imagine they've got limited resources and can't exactly blow hundreds of thousands on advanced physics engine and the like.

Except that you can stand still with the weapon over your head and enemies will still try to beat through it.

Not quite sure I understand.

 

[dessertmonkeyjk]

This would require quite an amount of work especially with the animations accommodating armor & weapon weights, speed, unique combos, weapon vs. weapon, weapon vs. shield, recovery states, etc.

You're asking for alot from the combat side which is why it's not commonly done. Making many simple things work with each other takes time and planning in which it becomes more of a main feature in itself.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

You forgot timing, and the possibilities of forcing an opponent off balance or being pushed off balance.

 

[KiloFox]

go take a look at Demon's Souls (or Dark Souls) melee combat... it's pretty close to what you're describing, and you'll see it can also be hard as HELL... there's a reason most of the enemies in the first level are mindless zombie-like creatures...

 

[jalpotato]

OK, your topic honestly intrigued the hell out of me, and after reading your post I'm thoroughly inspired.

Now to address the issues. In terms of animation, it is a big investment of time and assets to even attempt what you are suggesting. Investing time in this means investing less time in other aspects. Games can't exist in "development hell" indefinitely, otherwise every other aspect of the game will fail, or it'll have been so long since start that they'd need to switch engines to keep up. As of right now, I honestly don't think the state of computer technology can keep up with such a task, while displaying at ~60 fps, and not taking up 50GB when installed, and not looking like shit.

 

[walrusaurus]

And yes, the pun in the title is intentional. Sword fighting in games of hack and slash or RPGs is really boring most of the time. It feels like you are clubbing someone to death with a dull blade (see? It was intentional!) rather than slashing and thrusting with a deadly weapon.

It has always pulled me out of a game when what looks like it would be a lethal hit only takes off a chunk of health instead of just killing someone outright.

With this in mind, I've come up with a system that could make combat more lethal without making it look dumber in the process.

#1. Animations.
Leave hits on the body for killing moves or slashes. Instead of whacking at someone until they fall over, make the animations show blocks and parries whenever you attack. Instead of chipping away at someone's health, you are beating down their defense. Slashing, dodging, blocking with a shield all look really damn cool.

This not only looks a hell of a lot cooler than just beating a guy like a stead tenderizer, but it also makes more sense. It is about making it through their defensive wall and getting a killing blow in past their guard. That makes the kill all the more satisfying.

#2. Momentum, Endurance, Vigor
Instead of a health bar, you have three values to take into account: Momentum, Endurance, and Vigor.
Momentum
Momentum stands in for Damage. Any weapon can be lethal, so placing a numerical value on it makes no sense. Instead, give each weapon a level of momentum. Momentum reflects how much pressure you can put onto your opponent as you wail on his guard, representing the aggression of your attack.

For example, a morning star would be a weapon with high momentum. To be used effectively, you need to keep the pressure on, swinging the ball and chain in a constant motion in order to land a hit. This amount of momentum allows for more damaging hits.

On the opposite end is a dagger. It has a lower momentum due to the lightweight nature of the weapon. It is harder to put up a constant attack like the morning star achieves, but it is counterbalanced by the other two values.

Vigor
Vigor acts like your mana bar, or how long you can hold up an attack. Using the morning star example, it has very high momentum, but its weight and awkwardness limit your amount of vigor you can use. This makes the weapon better for shock attacks to overwhelm an enemy quickly, but it is not well designed for prolonged combat, as your vigor drains very fast while using it.

The dagger works better here, as it is lightweight, and easy to handle. This makes it better to use in longer attacks, whittling down an opponent over time. It has a higher vigor pool, allowing it to last longer in a fight.

Endurance
Endurance is how long you can last before getting hit and killed. Depending on your equipment, Endurance can be affected in different ways. Using a shield and heavy armor gives you a high endurance, but they affect your vigor due to their weight. So armour allows you to last longer in a fight, but you have to fight smarter due to the limits it puts on your vigor.

Contrasting is light armor such as leather. It gives you less endurance, but also more vigor, since it is lighter.

Endurance can recharge, much like how in real life we can catch our breath. So you have to juggle how hard you go on the attack, lowering your vigor, which leaves you more open to counterattack adversely affecting your Endurance. When to commit and when to play defensive is key.

Putting them all together
So the gameplay works through how these three values affect each other, altering how you play. Do you use a high momentum weapon with heavy armor, making you lethal on the first attack, but much more vulnerable in the follow up? Or do you use lightweight equipment allowing you to attack further, but you are less able to defend yourself?

Attacks
First of all, no quicktime events. You have three attacks: Horizontal, Vertical, and Lunge. Horizontal attacks work well with less momentum weapons like daggers or knives, slashing swiftly to whittle down their endurance. Vertical attacks work well with the morning star due to the high momentum, using the crushing power to your advantage. Lunges are very risky: you stand the chance to kill an enemy outright, but you could also over exert yourself, resulting in a big hit to your endurance if they counter you while you are extended.

I'm still working on how this would all be applied in the context of gameplay, but I wondered what you guys thought of it first. Please leave comments on what you think works and what could be improved.

You've more or less just described the combat system in dark souls. Endurance=Stamina, Vigor=Vitality, Momentum=weight/stagger. You have a light and heavy attack, each weapons is different based on its shape size and weight. If you have a heavy enough weapon and your opponents shield has low stability or no shield you'll cause them to stagger, more stable shields drain stamina slower. Different classes of shield parry differently, with some shield unable to parry altogether, and instead have a heavy bash. Successful parrys allow for ripostes. The heavier armor you wear the slower you move and the slower your stamina will regenerate. need i go on?

 

[Bostur]

I always thought the original Pirates! did swordplay pretty well. It was simple but effective, and any developer trying to emulate swordplay should play that game.

I think most attempts fail because the controls and the animations are not accurate enough. What happens on the screen needs to be an extension of our mind. Responsiveness, accuracy and speed is very important for that reason. Animations also need to be linked smoothly. Most games make the moves too flamboyant and fancy and then speed and flow is lost. Ideally fancy moves should be the result of combinations made by the player, not passive animations that we watch.

Adding physical stats like momentum, endurance, balance etc below the hood can probably work well if the animations can provide suitable cues for changes in states based on those stats. But I would hate to watch little bars go up and down. I want to watch my opponent and react to his moves.