The Big Picture: Continanity

WarpGhost

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Jan 5, 2009
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After your last video, I got thinking about why Judge Dredd appeals to me (I'm still only up to 'Necropolis' though), but stuff like DC and Marvel are a complete turn-off. I think one of the big reasons is that JD advances in real time; one year of real world comics is one year in the Dreddverse. It leads to some pretty cool later tie-ins like when the baddie from the very first comic comes back years later and so much has happened that Dredd doesn't even remember who he is or what he did. It also makes it far more accessible for newbies like me, who can just pick up the back catalogue and start from the beginning, knowing that it's going to be fairly smooth, time consistent, and perhaps most importantly where the development of the character, universe and storylines follows a natural arc that is easy to follow and accessible. It also gives an extra layer of depth to the characters as time and experience within the universe itself seems to be having the effect. Whilst the almost schizophrenic changes in tone as the stories bounced between authors could be pretty jarring, averaged out over time it makes a lot of sense.

And yet despite this 'stricture', they've still managed to do some pretty epic things, and I've still got over 20 years of the comics to go!
 

FinalDream

[Insert Witty Remark Here]
Apr 6, 2010
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I just like the (good) movies and TV cartoons in the nineties ok!

Although somewhat interesting, the multiverse is exactly why I don't read comics. Although pirate Batman sounds awesome.
 

GrizzlerBorno

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Sep 2, 2010
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I'll just stick to the Nolan films thank you very much.
Good video Bob. When i first came to the escapist, i never watched you're movie reviews cause i don't watch many movies anyway; but ever since I've been following The Big Picture, I've been watching those too. so color me a fan!
 

Orthon

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Mar 28, 2009
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This is why I'm sticking to Alan Moore's stuff for now when it comes to comic books.

However, when it's about tv series or movies based on comic boooks.. I mostly watch Batman.

I fear the continuity, okay? :<
 

Macinator

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Oct 18, 2010
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The actual best part of the pirate Batman?
If you consider that he was trained by ninjas...
...and was killed, but is still alive...
...that makes him The One, The Only...
...Ninja Pirate Zombie Batman!
/universe
 

LadyRhian

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May 13, 2010
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I used to be a big comic book fan, and stuff like this was one of the reasons why I just don't read episodic comics any more. Marvel is now doing this stupid thing where they will publish graphic novels that leave out a lot of the story. I was just reading "Thor: Siege" the other day (which my mind tells me is a cynical cash grab to be out there before the movie comes out), and basically, the Norse Gods have relocated to the midwest and built themselves a new Asgard over a small midwest town. Loki decides to destroy it for shits and giggles. Volstag is accused of killing a bunch of people by accident and he turns himself in, and a machine-Thor calling itself Ragnarok attacks him and tries to kill him. Meanwhile, a bunch of human villains hyped up on magical power sources attack the new Asgard and are managing to win the battle...

And the whole middle and end of the fight are not published in the graphic novel. No, I am not kidding. There are two "highlights" pages... and we cut to the aftermath, sometime the next day. As a reader, that pisses me off. If I pay my own good money to buy this (expensive) graphic novel, by damn, I want to read the whole story. Would you buy a book that cut out the middle and denoument of the story, and told you, to read the parts that were missing, you have to buy two or three other novels to get the full, whole story? That's just insane. And yet, graphic novels apparently get away with this all the F_ing time.

It makes me not want to spend my money on these things. Honestly.
 

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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MovieBob said:
Continanity

This week, Bob examines the insanities of continuity.

Watch Video
And this is why limited series tend to produce better, more believable characters.

When you begin a story, or a character's run within that story, with reasonably-predictable timeline in mind, you can create story arcs that have an organic and interesting shape. You can aim for a single "grand climax," steering all events toward it, away from it, back toward it, and eventually BAM! You're there, and the rest is denouement.

But you can't create that shape unless you know both the beginning and the ending point. You need a finite space in which to work. And having that finite space allows you tell a far more interesting story, because it will have direction, and highs and lows that both matter. Most importantly, it will have closure.

You know what does go on and on, for an unpredictable amount of time, with various highs and lows that have little or nothing to do with each other? Real life. And real life, for the most part, is fiercely boring. There are highlights, sure, but the rest is eating, sleeping, walking, and pooping. When you hear stories of someone's heroic life, you're reading the highlights, and usually only from a brief period within that life. You're not forced to sit around for the rest of it. Beyond this, you're listening to the story after the fact, which means there's an ending to that story, even if the person is still alive.

Comic books and soap operas have to be more interesting than real life, which means concocting unlikely or impossible scenarios and grandiose means of having the hero come out on top. Like any good story, there are several mini-climaxes, usually leading up to one big one. But unlike good stories, these series are forced to do the same thing over and over again. It goes one of two ways.

The first way ends with a story having too many "grand climaxes," such that they're no longer... well... climactic. How many times can you save the world from "certain doom" before it starts to become pedestrian? How many evil twin clone robots can show up before you already have a stock plan for dealing with these things? The extreme example of this one could be called "Friends Syndrome," or "Ross/Rachel Syndrome." Reusing the same climax over and over. They can only be apart/together/apart/together so many times before most folks just quit caring.

The second way continues into over-the-top escalation. The basic idea is the demote the last "grand climax" to a mini-climax on the way to something greater. This could also be called "Dragonball Syndrome." Sure, you just gave your all to defeat the biggest bad around, but really it was just his human form! Now you have to face him in his true form! But then, of course, you discover some new super secret attack (which you should have learned from the beginning, really) which you use to defeat him. And with his dying breath he tells you... that he isn't the biggest bad. There's another one coming that's bigger and badder, and you're all doomed (again).

Each has to be bigger than the one before, which quickly gets out of hand, because these things tend to grow on a logarithmic scale. Soon, you reach a point where you just have to think, "Well what the hell do we do now?" And that's how soap operas got vampires.

So characters and stories of an indefinite lifespan lead to stories that either plateau or sore rapidly into completely outrageous places. But guys like Superman and Batman have something else stacked against them when it comes to remaining compelling characters in a grand story: They have outlived their audience (and writers) several times over.

Superman was a product of his generation. People needed that super-capable, super-moral, super-patriotic hero that could never be defeated. Superman was that hero. He was everything good and pure and strong and true. Then, when things calmed down, the new generation found him... well... kinda boring. I mean, nothing was a challenge. Not really. Enter: kryptonite, a handy little doodad that suddenly gave Superman a vulnerability. This bought them some time, of course.

But the fact remains that the generation reading Superman now is not the same as the first. The generation writing Superman now is not the same as the first. And that means the character has to constantly be "reimagined" into a new version that fits the current generation (see: Emo Clark Kent).

It also means that, in all likelihood, the new generation of writers were fans of the old generation, and they want to recreate the wonder and awe they felt. It's basically fourth-generation fan fiction at this point. And when you hire fans to continue the project, your project suffers from a sort of "creative incest," and minor flaws propagate from one generation to the next, becoming noticeable deformities.

It ends up this way because we get to a point where we don't want to create new heroes and try to, once again, get people invested in them. The old guys are a security blanket. The name and face, and what it used to represent, will carry the product. Consequently, while the writers cling to this security blanket, audiences will follow suit. With all the hundreds of new heroes being created in this information age (where every Joe can get his goods to market), they'll tend not to risk it. They'll stick with the tried-and-true for as long as they're out there.

So instead of compelling stories with a beginning, middle, climax, and end, possibly with several lesser stories woven into the middle, we get reboots, alternate universes, retcons, hideously exaggerated conflicts, and any other means of reusing the same heroes over and over and over. Of these options, I really think reboots are the best--you get a chance to wipe the slate clean and start the story again.

But if you don't set a destination, you're only delaying the day where the "son" becomes the "father" again. Let heroes die. Let them retire. Above all, let some stories end.

(And speaking of shoddy DC continuity, does anyone have a clear, concise origin for Catwoman? I mean seriously.)
 

Wolcik

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Jul 18, 2009
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Thanks, Bob. I'm a Marvel fan myself, so I didn't know much about that Crisis buissnes - I'll look up into it one day XD
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Sep 1, 2007
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Its easy... you go with the decade that made most sense for DC its mostly the 80s for marvel its the first half of the 90s, ya know befor they started to screw everything up.
 

emeraldrafael

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Jul 17, 2010
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I like how multiple/alternative universes became the scape goat and explanation behind anyhting that you couldnt explain out right. Though I think now a days its getting out of hand. Especially in comics. They need to start a pruning process to landscape their creations a bit.
 

GeorgW

ALL GLORY TO ME!
Aug 27, 2010
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That's just insane. But you've made your point Bob, I won't read any comic books. Though I'm a fan of any movies, TV shows and games with old style comic themes. Batman arkham asylum for example was awesome.
 

HentMas

The Loneliest Jedi
Apr 17, 2009
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just keep creating material for the Rule 34, i dont really care about all this except the hottest female heroes come from DC, and Marvel could use a little bit more in the scene of female sex icons

yeah, i went there.
 

Fr]anc[is

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May 13, 2010
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Wow I don't know what surprised me more, that there is a bat caveman and a bat pirate, or that I wasn't surprised at all
 

Towels

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Feb 21, 2010
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dastardly said:
And this is why limited series tend to produce better, more believable characters.

When you begin a story, or a character's run within that story, with reasonably-predictable timeline in mind, you can create story arcs that have an organic and interesting shape. You can aim for a single "grand climax," steering all events toward it, away from it, back toward it, and eventually BAM! You're there, and the rest is denouement.

But you can't create that shape unless you know both the beginning and the ending point. You need a finite space in which to work. And having that finite space allows you tell a far more interesting story, because it will have direction, and highs and lows that both matter. Most importantly, it will have closure.

[Snip]

But if you don't set a destination, you're only delaying the day where the "son" becomes the "father" again. Let heroes die. Let them retire. Above all, let some stories end.
Well Put. This is brings up another problem I have with most comic stories:
Comic stories and characters feel like they are economically dictated by their fans. Most characters that do have their stories end is because they were not popular enough to keep. But that's just the innate problem with having serials, I guess. When the concept of the story revolves almost entirely around the character, rather than the environment the character lives in, the story's lifetime is also determined by the popularity of the character.
 

EmilShmiengura

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Feb 17, 2009
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skfd said:
Is this superhero-comic fandom as big outside States?
Not as big, no, but there;s a lot of comic-book enthusiast everywhere. In France for example they always were a big thing. The comic-book section of a store here is a library in its own sometimes, with older issues catlogued carefully and the new ones arranged into mouth-watering displays:). But the french BD are a different thing, a case of parallel evolution of the comic-book and I dare say they treat their readers with more respect and less spandex suits:) , Still Wolverine and Spider Man are popular everywhere from what I saw. Also novels like V for Vendetta and The Watchmen tend to be pretty universal, it's probably because they are clear, have an actual direction and ENDINGSSSSSS!