Soviet Heavy said:
I don't think you two would know self-deprecating humour if it walked up in front of you and insulted itself.Arqus_Zed said:
The Big Picture: Continuity Wars
- Thread starter MovieBob
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Thing is, I don't give a shit about Mario continuity. I came in with the promise of hearing about Star Wars, and left with nothing useful being said and a two minute tangent on why fucking Shy-Guys are interdimensional beings.bastardofmelbourne said:
What about the Old Republic? Armies of Sith and Jedi beating the crap out of each other would make nerds cream their C3-PO pants.
Thumbs up if you get the reference
Thumbs up if you get the reference
Cute.bastardofmelbourne said:
He spends about one third of the entire episode talking about it. In great detail. With information that seems disturbingly well thought about. Questioning various theories in rapid succession. He probably wanted to let it come of as a joke, but if you're not too dense, it's quite obvious he's really being quite serious.
It's like that Moviebob episode where he pretends to have seen a private screening of a new high budget Super Mario movie. The episode was basically: "If I had half a billion dollars, this is the Mario movie I would make." Yeah, it was disguised as an April fools episode, but he just wanted to get all his "super cool ideas" to the masses.
Continuity is kind of a make or break thing for me because I like settings almost as much as I like stories. Hell, I buy RPG manuals that I know I'm never going to actually play just so I can read about the setting.
So when a corporation (let's face it, it's almost always a corporation) comes in and mucks up the continuity, I start to lose interest real fast. I mean, Star Wars already had an absurd number of levels of canon [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Expanded_Universe#Official_levels_of_canon], then Lucas made the prequels, and now we're going to have a split post-Jedi canon and... the setting is ruined. The stories might be good, the characters good, but the setting, without any sort of internal consistency, is ruined, and I have no further interest in it.
And this isn't the first time I've "broken up" with a series because of continuity problems. I dumped Dragonlance after reading over 100 books because not only did some books directly contradict others, but some books actively made fun of the others. It's like there wasn't any editorial oversight at all, and authors just mucked around as they pleased without respect to those who came before.
This is also why I can't really get into comic books. I mean, sure, Marvel has better continuity than DC to an extent, but they still retcon the Hell out of everything to the point that no one really knows what has and has not happened or what the rules of the setting are at any given point in time. Once you get into the cross-medium stuff (books vs. movies), even a token nod to consistency goes out the window.
In summary, I primarily read single-author (or cohesive team) scifi and fantasy because everything else drives me up the wall.
So when a corporation (let's face it, it's almost always a corporation) comes in and mucks up the continuity, I start to lose interest real fast. I mean, Star Wars already had an absurd number of levels of canon [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Expanded_Universe#Official_levels_of_canon], then Lucas made the prequels, and now we're going to have a split post-Jedi canon and... the setting is ruined. The stories might be good, the characters good, but the setting, without any sort of internal consistency, is ruined, and I have no further interest in it.
And this isn't the first time I've "broken up" with a series because of continuity problems. I dumped Dragonlance after reading over 100 books because not only did some books directly contradict others, but some books actively made fun of the others. It's like there wasn't any editorial oversight at all, and authors just mucked around as they pleased without respect to those who came before.
This is also why I can't really get into comic books. I mean, sure, Marvel has better continuity than DC to an extent, but they still retcon the Hell out of everything to the point that no one really knows what has and has not happened or what the rules of the setting are at any given point in time. Once you get into the cross-medium stuff (books vs. movies), even a token nod to consistency goes out the window.
In summary, I primarily read single-author (or cohesive team) scifi and fantasy because everything else drives me up the wall.
It always bothered me how Yoshi's Island in Yoshi's Island is like a 100 times bigger (and funnier) than in Super Mario World.
New 52 is simply the latest (and most blatant) example of how DC reboots its continuity every ten years with a new manufactured "crisis" in order to alter certain "established" traits in favor of wanting to take a character in a new direction.Gizmo1990 said:
Their one BIG crisis arguably had the greatest shakeup, knocking off among others Supergirl (whom they wanted to end) and Barry Allen-Flash (whom they wanted to replace with Kid Flash, Wally West). It eventually turned into their continuity crutch, by which they demonized Hal Jordan, replacing him with a character who belongs in a Green Lantern outfit about as much as Raiden belongs in Metal Gear Solid, then rehabilitating his image with yellow brain aliens or something, and a hundred other equally dubious decisions.
TLDR; DC uses stupid reboots to change stupid stories into other stupid stories, and also, Geoff Johns.
I wonder if Bob works Mario-themed games into his continuity, cause it seems like it would be pretty easy to blow his mind, e.g., Birdo is in Mario Tennis.
I'm sure they'll keep bits and bobs from the EU. I wouldn't be surprised if the Solo twins are in the next one, for instance (although they very well may not be). And I'd personally like a KotOR-era film someday. But no Vong plz.
Anyway as a comics nerd I dig continuity but I can accept that the realities of decades of storytelling will mean that not everything is going to line up just right.
I enjoyed the Mario digressions. Mario as John Carter/Superman = pretty slick.
Also kudos on the double use of 'ephemera'.
Anyway as a comics nerd I dig continuity but I can accept that the realities of decades of storytelling will mean that not everything is going to line up just right.
I enjoyed the Mario digressions. Mario as John Carter/Superman = pretty slick.
Also kudos on the double use of 'ephemera'.
While I can understand the protectiveness that Star Wars fans have towards their Expanded Universe, as I happen to be one of those geeks who really got into the books when I was a kid (I mean, I used to play on a forum post-based Star Wars RPG), there's a real problem with the EU that makes me wonder if it's even worth preserving in the movies.
A lot of it is really bad.
No, seriously. Some of the books are terrible, almost to the point of being unreadable. This normally would be easy to write off, except one of the most important parts of the EU canon, the establishment of Skywalker's rebirthed Jedi Order, is also written by one of the worst writers in the EU. Seriously, this guy is bad. Really bad. He is overly fond of pulling new superweapons out of nowhere that make the Death Star look like a wiffle ball, he writes beloved characters as though they are complete morons, and spins a slew of plotlines that are never resolved elsewhere. He kills at least two characters through means of pure stupidity. It was so bad that another author basically had to write a Fix Fic (obligatory TVTropes link) to tie up all the loose ends and point out what idiots everyone was being in this time period. It's glorious.
Granted, that aforementioned book was from the perspective of a borderline Mary Sue character, but I digress.
Basically, I'm just trying to point out that while there are a lot of people who love the Star Wars EU, it is rife with flame wars over the quality of different authors and plot lines, whether so-and-so should have died in the process of stopping some evil-dark-unholy threat from creating a new age of darkness or survived the ordeal, and various minutiae. There are screaming arguments over the various retcons and "plot twists," in the canon. It gets to the point that I want to read through the tubes of the Internet and grab these flame warriors by the shoulders and shake them while screaming in their faces "Do you guys even LIKE Star Wars?"
....
....
Hold on. Is this how comic book nerds feel about their material?
A lot of it is really bad.
No, seriously. Some of the books are terrible, almost to the point of being unreadable. This normally would be easy to write off, except one of the most important parts of the EU canon, the establishment of Skywalker's rebirthed Jedi Order, is also written by one of the worst writers in the EU. Seriously, this guy is bad. Really bad. He is overly fond of pulling new superweapons out of nowhere that make the Death Star look like a wiffle ball, he writes beloved characters as though they are complete morons, and spins a slew of plotlines that are never resolved elsewhere. He kills at least two characters through means of pure stupidity. It was so bad that another author basically had to write a Fix Fic (obligatory TVTropes link) to tie up all the loose ends and point out what idiots everyone was being in this time period. It's glorious.
Granted, that aforementioned book was from the perspective of a borderline Mary Sue character, but I digress.
Basically, I'm just trying to point out that while there are a lot of people who love the Star Wars EU, it is rife with flame wars over the quality of different authors and plot lines, whether so-and-so should have died in the process of stopping some evil-dark-unholy threat from creating a new age of darkness or survived the ordeal, and various minutiae. There are screaming arguments over the various retcons and "plot twists," in the canon. It gets to the point that I want to read through the tubes of the Internet and grab these flame warriors by the shoulders and shake them while screaming in their faces "Do you guys even LIKE Star Wars?"
....
....
Hold on. Is this how comic book nerds feel about their material?
YES. YES. WE KNOW. They won't adapt any of that EU canon into new Star Wars stuff. (Even though Lucas nodded to some of it, making Coruscant a real place in the prequels is proof he was paying attention to what was being written about it.)
The thing I think most of us EU fans were looking forward to was that Disney might consider adapting the Thrawn Trilogy, since those books SCREAM Star Wars and would be easy to adapt into movies. Then after they won over the fans, they could do whatever spin-offs they wanted.
But no. And that's fine by me. Now I'm hoping that the original cast reunites for at least one more adventure in the SW universe.
The thing I think most of us EU fans were looking forward to was that Disney might consider adapting the Thrawn Trilogy, since those books SCREAM Star Wars and would be easy to adapt into movies. Then after they won over the fans, they could do whatever spin-offs they wanted.
But no. And that's fine by me. Now I'm hoping that the original cast reunites for at least one more adventure in the SW universe.
Yeah that's pretty much what I've been thinking all along, though personally I doubt they will adopt anything from the EU.Falseprophet said:
I'm okay with that but at the same time I think it would be really cool if they kept Grand Admiral Thrawn around as the bad guy. You can completely re-write the story, but just keep Thrawn as the leader of the imperial remnants.
Out of all the EU universe stuff, the first thing that comes to mind when people talk about it is the Thrawn trilogy. And that's because Timothy Zahn made a legitimately awesome Star Wars villain here. The guy has everything, great name, distinct features, awesome MO. There's a reason why everyone remembers him and those that don't know any of the EU will love him all the same. I'd give it a 99% chance the new writers won't be able to come up with something better, just like how Darth Maul or Count Dooko could never live up to Darth Vader. It would be a great gesture towards the hard core Star Wars fans as well.
I hate to say it... but that Mario continuity stuff was terribly engrossing. I would love to see another episode discussing that, if you fancy the idea, Bob.
They were endorsed, yes, but beyond that there is t much that really makes them any ki d of canon. There is very little that ties them Into anything save the jedi knight series, and only then because of a couple familiar faces. Its not the same as if they did a movie that really showed Luke building or at least starti g the new jedi order. Lucasarts contribultio s to the EU have more or less been not suing people who had the same Ideas LA had before they made it into a game.Darth_Payn said:
Though I havent played the rogue squadron games, so maybe im missing something supendously spectacular there that somehow contributed greatly.
I'll admit, I love canon debates and their associated madness. But, this kind of stuff doesn't really get to me because I just look at stories set in well-established universes less seriously. When it comes to Mario, Sonic, even Star Wars, I tend to see only set pieces. Their universes have certain rules that must be played by, and it's up to whoever is holding the pen to come up with an interesting way to break those rules and tie it back in to the original plot. As far as I was concerned, every new Star Wars media became ascended fandom a long, long time ago.
I think I remember one writer actually quit because their depiction of their favorite race (which they'd built into 'better than jedi' mary sues) was overridden when the toon showed them as villainous mercenaries. (I think irony was enjoyed by the fanbase as said author was reputedly infamous for trampling all over everyone else's established continuity if it served their stories).Falseprophet said:
anyways, I thought the official standpoint was that the EU was canon unless the movies/tv series said otherwise, so totally not surprised at all that they are ignoring it (and again, makes aforementioned authors tantrum all the more childish).
Soviet Heavy said:
I'm going to address both of you at once, because the response is the same.Arqus_Zed said:
Lighten up! He was taking a crack at the fact that nerds tend to obsess over ultimately frivolous entertainment endeavours (the message of the video, if you were listening) by going humourously overboard on his analysis of the Mario continuity - a series of games that don't really have a continuity, being entirely frivolous entertainment endeavours. The fact that I have to explain the joke to you kind of destroys its humour, but really, it was very obvious he was joking, and the fact that you two both seem to think he had a serious beef with the Mario continuity frankly amazes me.
He's basically saying "Continuity bugs me as much as it does you, but it's actually way more fun if we just sit tight and enjoy it." And you guys are just going "Rah rah, not enough Star Wars, too much Mario, I'm a very serious person who is inexplicably grumpy about the videos produced by a film critic I clearly don't like very much to start with."
Coming up with a plot for a film is not the time/money-consuming part. There are thousands of writers in Hollywood churning out screenplays to pick from. Polishing up a rough screenplay into something good enough to film takes a little more time, and is the reason why many Hollywood film scripts are first written by a complete unknown (who'll get paid comparatively little), but then rewritten by the likes of Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio.ShadowKatt said:
The entire writing process (including re-writes ad-nauseam) is still the tiniest fraction of the investment needed to make a film. Even if some of the expanded universe was already in screenplay form, it's a negligible cost to Disney to just start from scratch (which gives them far more freedom).