The Big Picture: Done With Dark

[Rad Party God]

Plus while I know you dislike the 90's when you reference tranformer being simple I can't help but think of Beast Wars, which was a tranformer franchise with a good ammout of sophistication and yet was about robot that tranform in animal

I liked Beast Wars and Beast Machines back then and they're mostly everything I know related to Transformers, when I think of Optimus, I still think of a giant gorilla transforming into a bipedal truck.

 

[rnpeek01]

I've made this same rant many a times myself. Although my rants revolve around more how to mature something properly because you can make mature superhero stories and have it be good, here are some guidelines to start out with:
Rule one- Don't throw in drugs, prostitution, or rape just because it controversial.
Rule two- Adding more shadows and making everything black does not make it a mature story.
Rule three- Characters need more then two emotions, just using anger and regret isn't enough.
Rule four- Happiness is allowed and encouraged, I may be an adult but I still read/watch to be entertained, and whiny assholes aren't very entertaining.

I definitely agree. It is possible to be mature without being angry and depressed all the time. I actually find that creating superheros full of angst and sarcasm makes them seem more like whiny teenagers than mature crime fighting adults.

 

[Buckett]

Uh, did Bob just ask me to go back and watch the Transformers movies? Yea, I'll pass thanks.

 

[ICantBelieveItGoesBoom]

I think this change is mainly because kids don't read comics or care about superheroes anymore, so it's understandable that the movies are marketed towards the adults that used to like them instead.

Also, you're complaining that the movies about characters that you know are marketed towards your age group? I don't really see the logic in there.

 

[Speakercone]

(slight diversion)
Perhaps film-makers are trying to (fingerquotes) "find the story behind the spandex" or whatever. To them, Transformers isn't about giant car/robots beating on each other in a spectacle of awesome; it's about the people who are caught in the middle of it all. This is a good idea, but they chose the wrong people.

Here's a transformers movie I'd watch on that basis:
Transformers have chosen Earth as the place of their final battle. Some are friendly and some are not. The story follows a small group of people in London trying desperately to escape the carnage being wreaked by the constant warfare among the machines. These people don't know why these things are destroying their city, they just know that when they fight, people die. suggested lines "what happened to you?" "one of those things crashed into my office building. would have been a good day to be late..." *shows recent wounds".

Yeah, I'd watch that.
(/diversion)

pretty much, I agree with you vis-a-vis the trappings of maturity vs. mature storytelling. Guns, blood, and T&A is precisely not mature, it's juvenile.

 

[RootBrewski]

Thank you Bob for talking about this. I get so sick of the "dark" and "gritty" obsession that seems to have infected everyone I know. It gets annoying when people tell me how much Nolan's Batman is the real thing.

Now I do enjoy reading mature comics, but it doesn't mean I want everyone I read to be filled with a reluctant, rage fueled and revenge driven "hero". I also cant help but feel that the TV show "The Cape" failed because it was about a guy actually acting like a superhero.

Also if anyone wants to see this topic addressed in comic books, not to mention just a good story, check out the Superman story "What's so funny about truth, justice and the american way?"

 

[GiantRaven]

To me, adults who identify with these comic book heroes are clinging on to old childhood fantasies - hence man-children.

Why is it not possible for comic book fans (or, more specifically, superhero comic fans) to just enjoy the stories because...they're fun stories? Why do they have to be labelled with something that sounds so overtly condescending simply because they like a product commonly perceived to be for children? Seeing as you admit you have never read a superhero comic, you really shouldn't be commenting on what you believe them to contain. If you had read a multitude of superhero comics, you would see the variety of stories and themes that far surpass the idea of child power fantasy.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

I definitely agree with this. Anyone who thinks that plastering sex and violence all over something makes it mature is so juvenile and ignorant I feel embarrassed to be a member of the same species as them. It's that kind of idiocy that turned me off to mainstream American superhero comics as a kid in the nineties and early 2000s and caused me to turn to Kamen Rider for my stories of superheroes in outlandish, brightly colored suits fighting monsters.

If Thor really is just about an awesome space viking fighting monsters with a hammer I will cry tears of joy.

I couldn't really think of any other way to put it. If i'm owning up to having done something that is also something man-children do, i'd have thought i'd be ripping on myself just as much or at least creating a level ground with everyone else - clearly not. I wasn't intending to make a derogatory statement, or rather, it wasn't the point of using that phrase. I'm afraid i just can't think of a nicer term for it. But if you can, feel free to suggest one. I just feel the comparison between pokemon and comic book heroes is there, and we all know pokemon are pretty much for man-children (for those who aren't of the younger demographic), and so comic book heroes carry over that same aspect of the comparison in my head, especially when you consider comic book heroes really played on both the imagination of younger audiences, the escapism from mundane school life, and the fact nothing really bad happened to them. There might be a few "ooh, aaah" moments, but at the end of the day you always knew the hero was going to beat the baddies and save the day. Otherwise there'd be no hero and no comic. To me, adults who identify with these comic book heroes are clinging on to old childhood fantasies - hence man-children. But that does not have to be a negative connotation. It's negative because you believe it to be. I know people who are self-proclaimed proud man-children, just like you have those who are proud to be geeks, and dare i say, proud to be gamers. Grown men who play pokemon into their 30s will look you in the eye like a boss while they finish catching a pokemon and say with all seriousness that yes, they do want to catch 'em all and couldn't give a toss what others think about their hobbies or labelling them as man-children.

No. It's negative because it has a negative connotation in society. It suggests the failure to become something (an adult). Comics are not like Pokemon: They're an entire medium, not just one series of games, and they encompass all genres and demographics. When you label an entire medium as "for children" you're making a value judgment, labeling it as something beneath the notice of a mature individual. This is the same kind of thinking that led to science fiction being ignored for decades by serious readers and critic. Yeah, sometimes I read and watch things made for eight year olds when I want to unwind, and sometimes I find some really interesting ideas and characters buried in them. I also read the essays of Lu Xun and the later, autobiographical fiction of Akutagawa in their original languages and write about the implications of postwar Japanese film. When I get together with friends we sometimes talk about Batman or old kungfu movies, but just as often we talk about philosophy and classical art. Am I somehow not fully an adult just because I happen to read the occasional comic book? If so, shouldn't the same be said about all the people watching the equally ridiculous but far more acceptable weekly TV shows about doctors and lawyers and detectives that draw such high ratings every week? Where exactly is your imaginary line of adulthood drawn?

 

[Axolotl]

After surveying the mess he have wrought with Watchmen in the 90's, Alan Moore decides he had enough of the GrimDark in comics, and answers back with the more positive Tom Strong, an old-school throwback to the HappyFun superhero stories of yore, only this time with modern twists on that.

Then he made a comic reinterpreting childldren's fairytales as peadophilia, so it's not like he totally rid himself of making grimdark stuff.

But the 90's trends weren't that bad, sure most of it sucked alot but we got Sandman so it wasn't all bad.

Lost Girls was not a grimdark comic. It's about the joy of sexual liberation and freedom, in everything from the art to the symbolism. That is not a grimdark idea.

How about the League then where one of the main characters gets brutally raped to death? Or even From Hell which is apprantly so horrifying a description of it caused Neil Gaiman to be sick?

 

[LordLundar]

Wasn't Incredible Hulk always about impulse-control issues? I don't know much about the comics, but he's always been "Monstrous Anger Man", hasn't he?

Originally Hulk was actually pretty intelligent and capable of rational thought. That's been rebooted recently with Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes where he's a lot more rounded out of a character and not just "Hulk SMASH!!!" all the time. In fact, he spends most of his time as Hulk and can turn it on or off at will.

Really? I guess I didn't know what I was talking about. Thinking for a second, I realize my familiarity with the Hulk mostly comes from watching re-runs of the live-action TV series.

That series does present an example of a comic-book character being kind of dark before the grimdark '80s, although while Banner seemed to consider the Hulk a curse, whenever he did turn into it it only ever throw bad guys around, stare at bystanders for a few moments, and then jog away.

Yeah, I really recommend A: EMH to any Avengers fan. It's a solid example of how a cartoon can be relatively mature without having to resort to what can be regarded as "dark and gritty".

Hulk's background in the cartoon is about him trying to be considered a hero as opposed to a monster.

 

[RyePunk]

I'll agree with Spawn being a wretched creation that seems to have been motivated by the marketing before anything else. But Sandman, Starman, JLA, JSA (the 1999 reboot)

Also Secret Six anyone? Dark and gritty but not actually, but sometimes yea. Seriously, best ongoing super"hero" comic. Just read it.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

While I admit to liking the occasionaly grim n' gritty story (preferably a deconstruction of a particular topic)... I really don't care much for the grimdark comics of the 90's.

I am an adult who still loves her comics (that's right, I said she, there are female comic book fans out there, ya know), but it bothers me that the comic writers of the time, instead of looking at the deeper subject matter of comics like "Watchmen" and "The Dark Knight Returns", focused instead on the surface stuff. You know, sex and blood and guns and stuff like that.

And while I think the sooner we drop the "comics/cartoons/video games are for kids" belief, the better, I do have my limits.

Now if you excuse me, I'm going to wait for the Thor movie to come out.

 

[Gralian]

To me, adults who identify with these comic book heroes are clinging on to old childhood fantasies - hence man-children.

Why is it not possible for comic book fans (or, more specifically, superhero comic fans) to just enjoy the stories because...they're fun stories? Why do they have to be labelled with something that sounds so overtly condescending simply because they like a product commonly perceived to be for children? Seeing as you admit you have never read a superhero comic, you really shouldn't be commenting on what you believe them to contain. If you had read a multitude of superhero comics, you would see the variety of stories and themes that far surpass the idea of child power fantasy.

Simply because the focus is on the superhero, not the story. The character, not the backdrop, not the lore, not the supporting cast, not the stories themselves. Everything is about glorifying and marketing the superhero. What's the first thing you generally see on the front cover when you first see a comic book? The superhero. The superhero is the focal point, the superhero is representative of those power fantasies, which is highlighted even further by the brightly coloured spandex - something that would be appeal to children. I would imagine the hero on the front cover would be depicted heroically, as well. The spandex covers the fantasy element. (It's breaking from societal conventional norms to wear attire like that, hence why they it works as an "alter ego) It works as a power element. Even if the hero is not doing anything particularly heroic on that front page, they will still look heroic, even if it's something simple like just having muscles. Combining the two, we have power fantasy, which is why it's associated with children and 'child power fantasy'. That's just my take on it anyway.

I think part of the problem is that comic books and comic book heroes just haven't grown up, which they tried to do during the 90's from what Bob was saying, but it didn't go so well. Instead, it became angsty, depressive and dull while somewhat suffering an identity crisis. I honestly feel that if the comic book industry wanted the stories to be mature, the heroes and villains would have to change as well. Out with the tacky spandex; in with a flash suit, or something to that effect. I never saw the show Heroes, but from the odd trailer i did see it seemed to pull off the whole superhero thing in a very believable way. No silly spandex, not ridiculous scenarios, all while keeping 'mature' stories that were supposedly very engaging. I think if comic books took the "Heroes" approach to telling their stories and portraying their characters, the comic book industry would shake off the 'man-children' connotation in quick time.

 

[Jenx]

The main problem with adding GRIMDARK up the bum to an already existing franchise is that...well that's what you're doing. You're just tacking it on, and it feels tacked on.

Stuff that's dark and gritty from the get go and was intended to be such can sometimes work a lot better. (Then again, Spawn quite honestly sucked pass the initial WOW! factor when you saw it as a kid, so maybe I'm wrong, I dunno.)

I think part of the problem is that comic books and comic book heroes just haven't grown up, which they tried to do during the 90's from what Bob was saying, but it didn't go so well. Instead, it became angsty, depressive and dull while somewhat suffering an identity crisis. I honestly feel that if the comic book industry wanted the stories to be mature, the heroes and villains would have to change as well.

Yeah, if only there were people making comic books outside of the United States, like that weird place they call "Europe".

 

[GiantRaven]

Snip

Once again I will state, perhaps you should actually read a variety of superhero comics before making your grand sweeping assumptions. Perhaps you might actually see they aren't all how you describe them, although I will say that some are but they tend to be the ones that aren't actually very good.

Also Secret Six anyone? Dark and gritty but not actually, but sometimes yea. Seriously, best ongoing super"hero" comic. Just read it.

Secret Six is fantastic. I would recommend anybody picking it up and reading it.

While I admit to liking the occasionaly grim n' gritty story (preferably a deconstruction of a particular topic)... I really don't care much for the grimdark comics of the 90's.

Have you read the 90s Green Arrow? I loved that, in the midst of books that featured characters trying to be as extreme as possible, it starred a mild-mannered vegetarian monk.

 

[Gralian]

Snip

Once again I will state, perhaps you should actually read a variety of superhero comics before making your grand sweeping assumptions. Perhaps you might actually see they aren't all how you describe them, although I will say that some are but they tend to be the ones that aren't actually very good.

I'm glad you can concede to some degree on what i'm trying to say, though to ask someone to suddenly swell with the knowledge of someone 'in the know' is a bit extraneous. If the outside observer instantly jumps to those grand sweeping assumptions it's the fault of the thing being generalised, not the observer. It's like saying not all of Nintendo's games or products are for kids or mums / girlfriends, and yet it's what most people will say who aren't gamers or Nintendo fans. Which is a result of the marketing. Not the person making the generalisation. A quick google image of the words "comic book" shows covers with bright colours, cartoony visuals, and outlandish characters. This is the marketing of comic books and thusly it is this that the generalisations are based upon, and therefore the fault of the marketing for the way it is stylised.

No comment on my bit about the show "Heroes"? As i said, i've never seen it, but i'm really curious to know how a comic book / superhero fan would react to that show. Whether they think it's a better, more mature way of telling a superhero story, or whether it needs the old campiness of pre-90's comics. (Another assumption to say it was camp, but that's the opposite of gritty, which is what i'm told the 90's was all about)

 

[TWEWER]

I agree with you 100%, Bob. The so-called gritty and realistic trappings of modern superhero comics are part of the reason why I tend to stick to manga. I kind of ignored the Thor movie when I first heard about it, but after hearing this I might just go check it out.

 

[GiantRaven]

No comment on my bit about the show "Heroes"? As i said, i've never seen it, but i'm really curious to know how a comic book / superhero fan would react to that show. Whether they think it's a better, more mature way of telling a superhero story, or whether it needs the old campiness of pre-90's comics. (Another assumption to say it was camp, but that's the opposite of gritty, which is what i'm told the 90's was all about)

I enjoyed what I saw of Heroes. I don't think all superhero comics being written that way would be a good move though. I'd miss their complete silliness.

 

[beema]

mostly in agreement on this one
good one bobby

 

[Blayze2k]

In a world...
Where the defeated...
Stay down...
One man...
Had the courage...
To rise again...

WEEBLES.
Coming to a theater near you.

[You're absolutely right, Bob.]