The Big Picture: Fair Game
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Bob, you undermined your entire case by lamenting the repression of "objective opinion."
FUCK YEAH WE'LL REPRESS OXYMORONS!
FUCK YEAH WE'LL REPRESS OXYMORONS!
Fanboy to me, means not just "I like product X" but "product X is the work of the divine and only an idiot would dare have the audacity to criticise it". And yes that is a position I actively resent and work against. I don't know what forums you are one where people have timids discussions, the one I are on could do with people actually considering maybe the opposition has some type of point (this ranges from everything from opinions on Obama, to what the best gaming platform is). So in that regards anything that creates a culture of maybe considering other viewpoints is good.
And yes the Scott Pilgrim point is true. Bob was guilty of engaging in creating a fictious dualing partner for Scott Pilgrim which he could blame it's commerical failure on. I liked Scott Pilgrim (and didn't see the Expendables so I can't really judge it) but to act as if the Expendables was the big bad villian that ruined Scott Pilgrim's chance is silly and angaging in that dualing fantasy as well as creating a boogeyman. Could scott Pilgrim's failure be due to it's own marketing staff?
And yes the Scott Pilgrim point is true. Bob was guilty of engaging in creating a fictious dualing partner for Scott Pilgrim which he could blame it's commerical failure on. I liked Scott Pilgrim (and didn't see the Expendables so I can't really judge it) but to act as if the Expendables was the big bad villian that ruined Scott Pilgrim's chance is silly and angaging in that dualing fantasy as well as creating a boogeyman. Could scott Pilgrim's failure be due to it's own marketing staff?
Bob's point is he shouldn't have to. Unfortunately some times you can't just ignore the trolls either. The right ones or enough of them go unchallenged they can do some damage. But part of the problem is that it's not just trolls any more. The "If you like A then you must not like B" presupposition is becoming a pervasive unquestioned mind set of our society.ReiverCorrupter said:
Preaching to the choir Bob. I saw the same problem reading fanfiction prior to the turn of the century. Anyone expressing an opinion differing than the dominat view gets their ass handed to them. It took years for me to figure out why: we're narcisits. While we like to pretend other opinions don't matter and we do out own thing, differing opinions somehow invalidate our own. Somehow we can't just like what we like in a vaccuum. If someone says they hate what we like we fly off into a rant about how wrong they are and since there's only one sure fire way to dismiss criticism, we hold to bias as the only reason they don't see the world as we do.
I think I speak for common sense when I say it's okay to have diverse tastes, and it's a wise fanboy that accepts that what he enjoys isn't flawless. I can enjoy Final Fantasy wihtout worrying I'm missing something in Halo, and accept that some of its entries have been pretty cruddy.
I think I speak for common sense when I say it's okay to have diverse tastes, and it's a wise fanboy that accepts that what he enjoys isn't flawless. I can enjoy Final Fantasy wihtout worrying I'm missing something in Halo, and accept that some of its entries have been pretty cruddy.
I thought this was kinda shit...
But that's OK, because I think Escape to the Movies is kinda shit too!
edit-8/16/2011: nevermind, they got better.
But that's OK, because I think Escape to the Movies is kinda shit too!
edit-8/16/2011: nevermind, they got better.
Dude, I'm pretty sure 4 chan is just anti... everything. You can't be anti-anti-everything. That's just... dividing by zero, man. No go.HankMan said:
Plus, it's so scattershot and messy and collective that nothing, and I mean nothing, it does comes with unanimous support. It's just an entity that can't be quantified; for every dissenters [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Avenge_Assange_Anonymous.png], which I suppose is what Bob was getting at, a bit, but still. That's like saying that you're anti-car because you don't like Yugos, which is as unfair a simplification of the issue as the "fair play bullshit" you dislike so much. Also, by stating that you're anti-4-chan, you admit that you feel it's a polarized issue, with two distinct sides. Basically, the act of "fanboyism", as Bob calls it, supporting one side over the other, isn't the issue- the issue is that it becomes "fanboyism" only because liking something doesn't necessarily exclude the opposite, nor do most things need or have opposites. So, in your support of Bob's argument against the internet's version of fair play, you employed the internet's version of fair play. Good job.
I just had a scary realization that with most of the escapist's videos, had they been posted on a different site, would have been totaly flamed
This episode is too true. Of course, there's the difference between displaying a balanced view like: "I know that there's also very much good to say about the opposite, but this is why it fades in comparison" and "I love killzone 2, and I love Halo! Both the best games in the world". Of course, the second is just bullshit troll doctrine, and the first really shouldn't be necessary unless it's about an issue where appearing better than the other can ruin the argument, like a USA vs Europe debate. It's impossible to have one of those with people only pointing out the flaws of the other, all it ends up in is a hostile "mine is the best!!" shouting contest.
Showing reflection in the matter is not the same as "fair game". For instance, I had a comment about the american health system, where I said the Norwegian school system and the american health system really suffers from the same screwed up view that since it's the perfect country, you can't learn from other countries. But while those two are similar, there's a little difference between people dying, and people not learning proper math.
Really, saying "Because the xbox has the Halo series, it's the best console" DOES imply that you could automatically add "this is because in my opinion, the halo series is the best series out there, and I know many might disagree, but that's how I feel" in your head. If someone says something that's clearly an opinion, it probably is one, and should be treated as such. So instead of replying "that's not a good argument, halo doesn't constitute a basis to judge a console by" or "Halo isn't a good series (which is trolling tbh)", just say "well, if that's what you judge it by, I understand, I don't care much about Halo, nor any Xbox exclusive, so it's different for me"
(and no, I don't like Halo, found the first to really just be an average shooter with no impressive features other than being very well adapted for console, but with a terrible story and nonexistent character development, and really didn't bother checking the sequels (and it started the "no health bar" trend...))
Overly correct people really need to stop the whole "subjective opinions must be stated as such". A debate isn't a statistics course, unless people are actively implying that this is an objective fact, it's a subjective opinion.
And seriously, we need to be better at ignoring trolls. Really.
Showing reflection in the matter is not the same as "fair game". For instance, I had a comment about the american health system, where I said the Norwegian school system and the american health system really suffers from the same screwed up view that since it's the perfect country, you can't learn from other countries. But while those two are similar, there's a little difference between people dying, and people not learning proper math.
Really, saying "Because the xbox has the Halo series, it's the best console" DOES imply that you could automatically add "this is because in my opinion, the halo series is the best series out there, and I know many might disagree, but that's how I feel" in your head. If someone says something that's clearly an opinion, it probably is one, and should be treated as such. So instead of replying "that's not a good argument, halo doesn't constitute a basis to judge a console by" or "Halo isn't a good series (which is trolling tbh)", just say "well, if that's what you judge it by, I understand, I don't care much about Halo, nor any Xbox exclusive, so it's different for me"
(and no, I don't like Halo, found the first to really just be an average shooter with no impressive features other than being very well adapted for console, but with a terrible story and nonexistent character development, and really didn't bother checking the sequels (and it started the "no health bar" trend...))
Overly correct people really need to stop the whole "subjective opinions must be stated as such". A debate isn't a statistics course, unless people are actively implying that this is an objective fact, it's a subjective opinion.
And seriously, we need to be better at ignoring trolls. Really.
Thank you Bob! My hat is off to you! to many times do i fear posting my opinion for i will most likely get another 50 quotes on how someone disagrees with me....thats right people i never forgot!
=) funny but no, you don't have to hate something to love something else. You can love both, hate both, love one and not the other thats pretty much a liberating thought. For example I love Spiderman 2, loved the original Batman but I dislike Spiderman 3 and think Batman and Robin was a complete waste of time. Those are my opinions and I'm sticking to them. Yeah factual doctrine should be held up for new stations but when it comes to forums the only rule should be the golden rule. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and there is nothing wrong with that. Thanks Bob for bringing up the topic, and yes I am a proud Big Picture fan!Fr said:
And they only aren't flamed here because The Escapist represses like a 13-year-old lesbian in a fundamentalist Christian household.pwnzerstick said:
Seriously, it's kind of ridiculous; this isn't China, I don't need to be sent to a re-education camp, thanks. I bet if Yahzee were a random poster on these forums, he'd get banned in a week, tops.
Oops, there goes my account.
Can't say I really agree with the video simply because I don't see the definition given of a fanboy as matching what I consider to be a fanboy. I do definitely see fanboy as a derogatory term but, to me, a fanboy isn't and has never just been someone you disagree with. A fanboy is someone who trumpets a blind love or something (or hate for something) without any reason. Fanboys do automatically dismiss any PS3 game simply because it is a PS3 game. Fanboys do hate things simply because they are popular. Fanboys do believe that a name on the box/cover/label is immediately enough to make something the most awesome-est faultless thing (or the worst most indefensible thing) ever.
You don't have to like what I like, and you don't have to give equal/compensatory praise to things you don't like, just have a real reason for liking what you do like and not liking what you don't. Liking something "just because" is cool, but that's not ammunition for any sort of debate.
You don't have to like what I like, and you don't have to give equal/compensatory praise to things you don't like, just have a real reason for liking what you do like and not liking what you don't. Liking something "just because" is cool, but that's not ammunition for any sort of debate.
Dunno if anyone mentioned this, but the alternate to anonymity is everyone having nothing but the utmost praise for whoever employs them at the moment, along with every single opinion that person or organisation holds, otherwise they'll be fired.Otakuman said: