The Big Picture: Favorite Ms. Take - Part 1

[jecht35]

well in defense of super hero women story archs, I think Raven had an awesome story arch that wasen't sexist.

 

[shintakie10]

I played a game with my fiance; could we name a single female heroine that has not 1) been killed, 2) depowered, 3) raped, 4) been shoe-horned into a marriage, or 5) gotten pregnant.

... We were only able to name ONE (love ya, Squirrel Girl). From Wonder Woman to She-Hulk to Ms. Marvel to Scarlet Witch to Jean Grey to Batgirl to Storm to Black Canary to Power Girl to practically every other female character...

Raven technically doesn't have any of those happen to her. I mean...her physical body dies at one point, but its not like the usual they died but some writer loved them so they retconned it into not dyin.

Also Cassie from Teen Titans (Wonder Girl). The only time she died was some weird illusion fake out by Aprhodite.

 

[Towels]

STOP. HOLD UP.
I have a problem with this being called "Rape."

This "rape" depends entirely on the accusation that Marcus used mind control, (both mechanical and psychological) against her will. I need actual evidence of this, not just Bob and Carola Strictland saying so. (Please keep in mind that I have not read the comic in question, but I did go to http://www.carolastrickland.com/comics/msmarvel/msmarvel2.html for research.

First, lets talk about Marcus's plan, or "Scheme" to get to Earth.

From Ms. Strictland's Article:

Daddy vanished (when he killed himself off a few millenia before), and Marcus was left alone. Not particularly liking semi-Limbo, he decided to go to Earth. He concocted a scheme by which he could be unnaturally born on Earth, speeded up in growth, and thus be able to prevent the destruction his presence in normal space would eventually create. He coldly chose the mother of the thing that would be himself: "The powerful combination of Kree and human strengths, would be the perfect vessel," he decided, and chose the perfect double of the only human woman he had ever known and loved: his unnamed mother.

Creepy and Oedipus-like? Perhaps. Keep in mind this poor bastard spent his entire life in a pocket dimension, isolated from any society, and even his own father left him trapped there.
What kind of rap-sheet made this guy evil in the first place? Am I to just assume that Marcus is evil because he the son a villain?

What the hell is so wrong with wanting to get out of Limbo? So he wanted to find a girl from Earth. Guess what? Humanity marries each other for money and power to better their own lives all the time, and no one bats an eye. Guess what else? Women also selectively choose what traits they want in a mate. This guy wants to escape a lonely life in Limbo AND he wants to selectively choose a mate, and now its suddenly so wrong?

But hey, intention is hard thing to prove without context. Lets just get to the method:

...[Marcus] couldn't explain his plight and let her decide if [Ms. Marvel] wanted to go through with his crazy idea or not; he wouldn't even consider that she might have a better idea for getting him to Earth. Instead he went about wooing her: poetry, clothes and music he furnished, thinking that those are the only things women are interested in.

How is it that being non-transparent, or even chauvinistic = sinister? Yeah, Rapists disguise their intentions. So do awkward guys inexperienced with love. Hey, turns out Marcus has been living in fucking Limbo, isolated from any kind of society. Forget about his evil father (who abandoned him) and then all this wooing seems like just foreplay. If this wooing was so objectionable, why does Ms. Marvel let it continue? Did she scream "Stop! Send me back home now"? It sure doesn't look like it. Please someone tell me that I'm missing a huge detail here.

But what I REALLY want to know is about all that juicy "sinister mind control" technique...

When Ms. Marvel didn't respond, as he explains to her in the present, "...Finally, after relative weeks of such efforts -- and admittedly, with a subtle boost from Immortus' machines -- you became mine."

Ok, strap in boys and girls... Its Law and Order: SVU time.

The very next paragraph in Ms. Strictland's prosecution:

This is not hidden between the lines. Little kids can read the obvious fact: he raped Ms. Marvel. The artwork goes to great lengths -- two close-up panels -- to show Ms. Marvel's ecstacy during the pseudo-mating.

And... Fizzle.

Wait, that's it? Just some dialog open to interpretation and she rests her case? Seriously, what they hell do these machines do?! The only clue as to their function is that Immortus used them before on Marcus's mother, and that they create dream worlds. THAT'S IT! Absolutely nothing else about them. Hell, maybe those fancy machines just make Marcus smell more attractive along with all that fancy dream world they created! Damn, that's a crime now?! I better stop wearing cologne and stop taking girls out to restaurants that I have made arrangements at.

Creating dream worlds can subtlety but drastically change someone's motivation and personality in life ala Inception. Or they can just be pleasant diversions, like every fraking romance story EVER. Turns out this story is too fraking vague to make any determination.

I don't enjoy defending rapists, so someone PLEASE SHATTER THIS ARGUMENT! Innocent until PROVEN guilty. I went through Strictland's essay, and it just goes onto rampant feminist rage after this badly presented accusation. Unless this happens, my jury is hung, and the Defendant, Mr. Marcus, will be acquitted of the charges of "Rape."

 

[Sporge]

Season 2 episode 1 of Star Trek the next generation.

Same story with the counselor to start, I just happened to have watched it just last night lol.

 

[Sylocat]

Why did I predict that there would be a ton of idiots in this thread trying to defend Marcus's actions?

Oh well... at least when Bob shows these idiots the rest of the story next week, that should shut them up for a bit...

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

Did you even read my whole post?

Yup. Still doesn't change the fact that he's not literally addressing the big picture just because his show is named that, and you were complaining that he should spend more time doing that.

It doesn't really matter that you said additional things, like how a comic episode now and again was fine. You evidently don't get what the show is about. You were not just whining about the number of comic episodes.

And all the information you needed was in what you parroted back to me. He doesn't need to address movies for "The Big Picture" to make sense. It's a play on the fact that he's "Moviebob." Nothing more is needed.

Do you also rant about how there is no extra punctuation in Extra Punctuation? Do you complain that some of the cutscenes in Unskippable are skippable? Do you feel No Right Answer is bad for occasionally giving a clear right answer? Are you burning with rage at the fact that there is no "escape" in Escape to the movies?

I hope not, but I can't be sure based on your nitpicking here.

Oh, dear god. I was not complaining about the comic episode because of what his fucking show is called. I was complaining because I just don't think they're very interesting. That whole bit about the show's title was not meant to be taken literally, I was just proving a point. I can't believe I have to clarify something so blindingly obvious, but there it is. Are we done now? Please?

 

[Something Amyss]

Oh, dear god. I was not complaining about the comic episode because of what his fucking show is called. I was complaining because I just don't think they're very interesting. That whole bit about the show's title was not meant to be taken literally, I was just proving a point. I can't believe I have to clarify something so blindingly obvious, but there it is. Are we done now? Please?

If it was blindingly obvious, you wouldn't have said the contrary.

Sorry, dude. I'm guessing we're done, but only because you know you've fucked up and are backtracking.

 

[The Random One]

I'd seen this on Cracked, but still makes my head hurt.

Still, I'll go ahead and say it: if the writers hadn't been oblivious to the fact that this was, yes, rape, and hadn't manufactured a happy ending out of Stockholm syndrome, it would have been pretty fucking awesome. Don't tell me the concept of a transdimensional entity abducting women to use their womb as a portal, mysoginistic as it is, isn't also deliriously interesting.

stuff about rape

You're making a tempest on a teapot. I mean, your point is valid, but your entire problem with it esteems from a single fact you didn't take into account when you read the article: it was meant to be read only by people who had read the original comic. I haven't, and judging by your comment you haven't either, but it's very clear that the article assumed readers would have. Maybe you're right and Strickland's claims don't hold water, but we can't verify that unless we read the actual comic, which unless it's available online or someone works at a second hand comic book shop will be quite hard. It'd be like discussing Shakespeare without having ever read his works. Except instead of Shakespeare it's insane time-traveling incest-rape (so pretty much the same thing).

 

[The Random One]

double post sorry

derp what is an edit button

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

Oh, dear god. I was not complaining about the comic episode because of what his fucking show is called. I was complaining because I just don't think they're very interesting. That whole bit about the show's title was not meant to be taken literally, I was just proving a point. I can't believe I have to clarify something so blindingly obvious, but there it is. Are we done now? Please?

If it was blindingly obvious, you wouldn't have said the contrary.

Sorry, dude. I'm guessing we're done, but only because you know you've fucked up and are backtracking.

*sigh* No. No we aren't.

OK, couple of things about this video:

1. Goddamnit, Bob, your show is called "The Big Picture". TALK ABOUT BIG PICTURE STUFF. I mean, a comics episode is fine every now and then, but come on! The only reason it's been so long since you did a comics episode is that you spent the whole month of October talking about bad sci-fi movies, which is BASICALLY THE SAME GODDAMN THING. Please, just...Talk about things that actually matter more often. You're good at it.

2. I swear if I hear that motherfucking "COMICS ARE WEIRD" bit ONE MORE TIME I WILL probably just press the mute button like I did in this video. Seriously though, please stop. It's really annoying.

There. See the bold text? Think about that. Obviously if I'm fine with a comics-based episode being on the show at all, that means that I don't have a problem with the concept of him doing comics-based episodes. That also means that, since I don't mind him taking the occaissional episode to talk about comic book continuity, I don't expect him to take the title of his show completely literally all the time. (That's the blindingly obvious part I was talking about before)
That quote is my original, unaltered post, so no back-tracking or fucking up was involved. I have been saying the same thing right from the start of this stupid little debate, and the proof is right there.

NOW we're done.

 

[Ulquiorra4sama]

"...and that's the big picture"
Except it's not when you include a cliffhanger! It's only half the picture, Bob!


Seriously though, that's a bit beyond just "weird" it actually pretty damn fucked up (no pun intended).

 

[Right Hook]

Awe, just as it was getting interesting

 

[Towels]

stuff about rape

You're making a tempest on a teapot. I mean, your point is valid, but your entire problem with it esteems from a single fact you didn't take into account when you read the article: it was meant to be read only by people who had read the original comic.

My comments are not really about the original story. They were about Strictland's argument. If her argument is so private, then why did Bob reference it? In fact Bob's observations hinge strongly on Strictland's assertions. I think its reasonable to question her argument, based on its own merits.

I mean, she just makes accusations, write a paragraph or 2 of flimsy evidence, and then says (based on what the evidence she just presented) Mind-fraking Rape is so obvious a child could see it. Well.. Um... No. Its not that obvious. Evidentally the effects of Strictland's assertion were quite dramatic on the comic industry too, but I guess Bob's going to get to that.

Sorry, I know I went a bit of a tanget, but It just felt like Strictland's assertion was being accepted as fact, so I felt a long legal defense was in order. After all, I don't want to be accused of empowering rapists X.X Really, I just want to understand the feminine empowerment trend better and maybe even help its cause by discussion.

 

[SnakeoilSage]

She's been retooled up the wazoo, given her own series, made field leader of the New Avengers, and still neither writers nor readers care enough to take her from second string status. I don't think it's that much of a problem with the character itself just that superhero comic readers do not see female characters as focal characters.

EVERY Marvel character has been retooled up the wazoo. That's their whole problem, they can't put a nail down on any one of their heroes. Besides a few tidbits of their back stories and powers they're all pretty much carbon copies of each other, and that has to stop.

You don't even need to give Ms. Marvel her own series. I mean Martian Manhunter doesn't have his own comic and he's one of my favorite JL members.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

I remember reading about that plot in one of the many Marvel themed articles Cracked.com put out. I wonder if that plot ever made it into a graphic novel...TO AMAZON!

 

[gorfias]

I don't know all the details of this comic, but I'd like a stab at playing Devil's Advocate.

1) Stage one love. It is a quid pro quo kind of thing: male wants sex and offspring. In exchange, he offers dedication, loyalty, devotion and support.

Understand, this guy didn't hit Ms. Marvel in the head with a brick and schtupp her. He wooed her. He treated her like a princess in a fairy tail conjuring pleasures for her (arts, music, poetry). Why? Didn't he have the power to just hit her in the head with a brick? If he did (and I'd argue he did, with all his tech stuff) why didn't he?

Because he was engaged in stage one love. And we, in our modernity, may find that lacking, but it isn't unfeeling and rape. Many societies have depended upon it for sex, love, distibution of rights, privileges, property and responsibility. He did his best, through this wooeing to show her he was dedicated, etc. And she bought it.

2) She bought it under mind control. For the sake of argument, I'll liken this to giving candy and booze to a date. Those, no doubt, can effect her judgement. By tradition, not enough to invalidate consent. (As opposed to say, when Roman Polanski butt raped a 13 year old who had been drugged... and still managed to say, "stop.") Giving a girl drinks may deminish her capacity to consent, but to invalidate that consent for this reason is akin to invalidating rape as, if a man is horny, he too is operating under deminished capacity.

3) Ms Marvel did, in Avengers 200, appear to buy the seduction. He was devoted to her. He was, in stage 1, quid pro quo love. From what I've gotten from this issue, from this writer's vision, is that he would have continued to love and support her. And she dug it. What happens later is another writer's vision.

Or should we hang Cyrano DeBergerac too?

 

[lord.jeff]

I played a game with my fiance; could we name a single female heroine that has not 1) been killed, 2) depowered, 3) raped, 4) been shoe-horned into a marriage, or 5) gotten pregnant.

... We were only able to name ONE (love ya, Squirrel Girl). From Wonder Woman to She-Hulk to Ms. Marvel to Scarlet Witch to Jean Grey to Batgirl to Storm to Black Canary to Power Girl to practically every other female character...

I think most of the male heroes have been killed or depowered at this point too.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

I... WHAT?!?!?! I dunno whether to be confused or offended... and now I gotta wait a whole week for part2. Damn...