That's actually what happened to her in recent years, she had her own series for a while and featured prominently in the Avengers. She led the Mighty Avengers during the post-civil war period and is a member of the New Avengers. She was one of the few likable "pro-reg" heroes. In Universe she's meant to be the most popular female superhero (in real life it would probably be an X-Woman, but hey thats hated and feared for you).SnakeoilSage said:You know it seems to be that with the right re-tooling, Ms. Marvel could really be Marvel's answer to Wonder Woman... or even Superman. I've never even read a comic with her in it and I know who she is and parts of her back story. She's got a unique look, mainstream powers, and her name is Ms. Marvel!
You could make her the Superman of Marvel. Make her tough, and even if she isn't a natural leader like Captain America she can, thanks to so many heroes knowing her, be the rallying cry that unites them. I think it's a direction worth looking at.
It's pretty late at night/early in the morning where I am so excuse me if I've made a mistake, but I think I see a major flaw in your second argument. If you give drugs or alcohol to a date she has the right to turn it away. If a woman goes to a bar and gets drunk than people are more likely to place the blame on her. Clearly she knew what a bar was, and what could happen to her so to some the sympathy might drop. I'm not saying I agree, but I understand that train of thought. Ms. Marvel was kidnapped, she didn't go seeking this brain washing experience. This dude plucked her out of her own dimension against her will. If I get you drunk at a bar people will probably put some of the blame on you, but if I break into your house, knock you out, and drive you to my place to get you wasted I'd like to think you'd get a bit more sympathy.Gorfias said:I don't know all the details of this comic, but I'd like a stab at playing Devil's Advocate.
1) Stage one love. It is a quid pro quo kind of thing: male wants sex and offspring. In exchange, he offers dedication, loyalty, devotion and support.
Understand, this guy didn't hit Ms. Marvel in the head with a brick and schtupp her. He wooed her. He treated her like a princess in a fairy tail conjuring pleasures for her (arts, music, poetry). Why? Didn't he have the power to just hit her in the head with a brick? If he did (and I'd argue he did, with all his tech stuff) why didn't he?
Because he was engaged in stage one love. And we, in our modernity, may find that lacking, but it isn't unfeeling and rape. Many societies have depended upon it for sex, love, distibution of rights, privileges, property and responsibility. He did his best, through this wooeing to show her he was dedicated, etc. And she bought it.
2) She bought it under mind control. For the sake of argument, I'll liken this to giving candy and booze to a date. Those, no doubt, can effect her judgement. By tradition, not enough to invalidate consent. (As opposed to say, when Roman Polanski butt raped a 13 year old who had been drugged... and still managed to say, "stop.") Giving a girl drinks may deminish her capacity to consent, but to invalidate that consent for this reason is akin to invalidating rape as, if a man is horny, he too is operating under deminished capacity.
3) Ms Marvel did, in Avengers 200, appear to buy the seduction. He was devoted to her. He was, in stage 1, quid pro quo love. From what I've gotten from this issue, from this writer's vision, is that he would have continued to love and support her. And she dug it. What happens later is another writer's vision.
Or should we hang Cyrano DeBergerac too?
Outstanding argument. There was an excellent episode of a show called "Picket Fences" where a shy guy on a date has a friend doing a Cyrano for him, BUT, he also spikes her wine with a little vodka to "help relax her". The shy guy is very sympathetic, but is charged with rape, more for the cyrano (if it wasn't really his words wooing her, he didn't deserve to get laid) but you've got me thinking: arguably he should have been found guilty for the vodka.rancher of monsters said:If you give drugs or alcohol to a date she has the right to turn it away... Ms. Marvel was kidnapped, she didn't go seeking this brain washing experience....Gorfias said:I don't know all the details of this comic, but I'd like a stab at playing Devil's Advocate.
2) She bought (his woo pitch) under mind control. For the sake of argument, I'll liken this to giving candy and booze to a date. Those, no doubt, can effect her judgement. By tradition, not enough to invalidate consent. (As opposed to say, when Roman Polanski butt raped a 13 year old who had been drugged... and still managed to say, "stop.") Giving a girl drinks may deminish her capacity to consent, but to invalidate that consent for this reason is akin to invalidating rape as, if a man is horny, he too is operating under deminished capacity.
You do realise that's the same as saying 'She was wearing a short skirt so she was asking for it'Gorfias said:if a man is horny, he too is operating under deminished capacity.
Very good point. I'd forgotten just how much broader the definition of rape has got.The Gentleman said:Actually, by contemporary definitions, that was technically not rape. Before you flame me, allow me to explain:
As many here are fairly aware, rape in and of itself is one of the newer violent crimes established in western traditions. As such, what defined rape was very limited to violent forcible penetration without consent. The stereotype rapist were pretty much the only ones targeted by this definition. Many jurisdictions even required a resistance by the victim in order to establish force. As such, intercourse by coercion or deception were legal in many jurisdictions up until the 1990s when many reexamined the laws and amended them to include such tactics.
Some examples:
In a 1985 case, one American woman in New York was randomly called up and told she had a fatal disease and the only way to cure it was to have sex with a doctor's "assistant" (the caller wasn't even a doctor). The appellate court rule it not rape.
A 1988 case in Pennsylvania had a 14-year-old girl who had been released from juvenile detention into the custody of the defendant, who threatened to send her back unless she had sex with him. The appellate court reversed a conviction for rape due to lack of force.
One 1990 case whereby a principal at a Montana high school threatened to withhold a diploma from a graduating female student unless she had sex with him (she complied) was ruled reprehensible, but not rape.
Sadly, had Ms. Marvel realized what had actually happened to her and filed charges, her son/lover would probably have not been found guilty, or, failing that, would have had his conviction overturned on appeal.
But by now everyone should know that last generation's romance is this generation's stalking.
So did Freud just go and possess the comic writers for this one, because not even Oedipus Rex was this Freudian.DVS BSTrD said:Now THATs an Oedipus complex!