The Big Picture: Gender Games

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

Wow, I wrote a long post, I think it would be wrong to inflict it on this forum without spoiler tags. It's a long response, but I felt it was warranted:

Spoiler

I always think its dumb to try to respond to this, because normally you are responding to people who have the typical, messed up Puritan view of sexuality. (Which is that sex is wrong, it's particularly wrong for women, and women who look like they actually enjoy their sexuality are evil and must be destroyed.) This is called the [a href="http://madonnawhore.com/"]Madonna/Whore complex[/a] usually, and its sometimes mistaken for feminism, when it's usually just good old fashioned father-knows-best paternalism. This offends me because I have a sexy wife who enjoys her sex appeal, and I'm in love with her and have been for 12 years. Please put the scarlet letters back in the 17th century along with the witch burnings!

In Japan, of course, they have a whole different set of sexual hangups that don't necessarily translate. However, this particular one doesn't really exist over there in this way.

So you end up with a culture clash, which expresses itself in typical Puritan hostility to sexy women. Especially sexy women with agency (there's normally much less objection to sexy women who are helpless victims, as in American games like Duke Nukem'). In other words, plenty of people don't like women like Taki, or Mai, or Cammy who can kick your ass and look good doing it, but they'd be ok if those women were tied up and hanging in the background like Mary Jane Watson-Parker in Spider-man for the Sega Genesis.

As Quentin Tarantino said, people were OK with Alabama until she decided to fight back against Virgil.

Now, when the first woman appeared in the most important, revolutionary fighting game in Japan, she didn't have that much sex appeal. I'm speaking of Chun-Li here of course. Chun-Li wasn't deformed, and she dressed in a feminine manner, but she wasn't designed with sex appeal in mind:

[a]http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Street_Fighter_II/Characters/Chun-Li[/a]

About the only thing I can say about her is that she's bare legged. Her legs seem muscular. Her breasts aren't particularly large. She's in a pretty dress, but not one that is "sexy." I mean, I think she's pretty, but she's not exactly Shampoo (who appeared in a 16-bit fighting game based on Ranma 1/2):

[a]http://animebaths.wikia.com/wiki/Shampoo_(Ranma_1/2)[/a]

Chun-Li was popular, and when SNK and a few other Japanese companies figured out there were riches to be had by making Street Fighter II over and over again, they introduced other female characters. For example Art of Fighting had King:

[a]http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Art_of_Fighting/Characters/King[/a]

Who basically wears drag and mostly looks like a Bishonen guy, and Yuri:

[a]http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Art_of_Fighting/Characters/Yuri[/a]

Yuri is likable enough, but hardly a sex goddess. On the other hand you had the Fatal Fury series. In the first Fatal Fury women were notable mainly by their absence.

Then came Fatal Fury II.

Kaboom!

The character of Mai Shiranui is introduced:

[a]http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Fatal_Fury/Characters/Mai[/a]

She's a bona fide sex symbol, guaranteed to put Puritans of both sexes up in arms... and a major hit. Capcom would respond with Cammy, another Femme Fatale type:

[a]http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Street_Fighter_II/Characters/Cammy[/a]

After this, you could divide fighting game females into two types. The non-sexy ones that everyone forgets about, like Pai in Virtua Fighter:

[a]http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/virtua-fighter-remix/screenshots/gameShotId,12036/[/a]

(I think you're pretty, Pai!)

And the sexy femme fatales, like Lei Fang in the deliberately sex drenched, less "serious" competitor of Virtua Fighter, Dead or Alive:

[a]http://deadoralive.wikia.com/wiki/Lei_Fang/Outfit_Catalogues[/a]

Now I've heard that other countries besides Japan make fighting games, and I think I might actually have played one once. I think it was ugly, hard to control, and the characters were stupid. Actually, I think I played more than one non-Japanese fighter like that. Unfortunately... I don't have anything good or interesting to say about them! Gomen Nasai I guess!

With Japanese games, often sex appeal is one trick used to compete against rivals. For example, Soul Edge made itself very different from Tekken including increasing the sex appeal of its fighters (sorry [a href="http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Features/2009/07/Ugly%20polygon%20babes/Screens/P%20to%20Z/Sarah--article_image.jpg"]Sarah[/a], but you are just too tough looking!). On the other hand, the only sexy female in Samurai Spirits until [a href="http://snk.wikia.com/wiki/Mina_Majikina"]Mina Majikina[/a] (designed to be the opposite of innocent and childlike [a href="http://snk.wikia.com/wiki/Nakoruru"]Nakoruru[/a]) was introduced late in the series was Mai Shiranui in her cameo in [a href="http://www.giantbomb.com/mai-shiranui/94-182/all-images/52-300913/gen_an/51-1335187/"]Gen-An Shiranui's ending.[/a]

[a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBh79lLO7RY"]In closing... [/a]

I have the same thoughts about the matter. It's really hard to discuss this when there's a cultural difference aspect standing right there to muddy up everything. Now if this was based around a Western company doing this, then they probably deserve the amount of scorn their way for dressing up female characters scantily for nothing more than sex appeal.

Also, that's a mighty fine closing. I couldn't help but play that song while reading your post, made it much more festive.

I was thinking about the Simpson's episode where Marge instructs Homer to teach Bart that [a href="http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Princess_Kashmir"]Princess Kashmir[/a] is a real person with feelings after he takes a picture of Homer dancing with her at a co-workers bachelor party

I never thought of that, but now it makes perfect sense. And I will forever think of that episode when I hear that song.

 

[DSD12]

Escapist messed up sorry

 

[DSD12]

What makes you think i am trolling i giving my opinion and just saying I am trolling just because you disagree with me I think that's is pretty stupid

How come whenever this topic comes out everyone points to the Dead or Alive series sure they had the volley ball games and that didn't help but overall the focus was the fighting which shouldn't be faulted by the character designs

"they're just tacked on 'extra' games that took thousands of hours of development time and were sold separately at full price but overall the focus was on beating up hot ninjas with super boob physics so the series isn't bad"

and trolling stops... now.

What makes you think i am trolling i giving my opinion and just saying I am trolling just because you disagree with me I think that's is pretty stupid

 

[Cesilius]

Outside of gagging down Bob's blatent liberal agenda he made a few good points. It is true that the gaming demographic and the femanist demographic utterly fail at understanding the other. But i think this issue is a little too played out. Frankly the solution is simple, if you are offended by the content of a game then you DON'T BUY THE GAME. You have as much right to not play a game as someone else has to play that game. Developers make these games with characters like these because sex sells. You will NEVER stop certain companies from making characters like these nor should you, It is there right to do so and it is not your right to stop them. The almighty dollar pushes everything in this world, you remove the dollar you remove the "problem." No amount of whining or preaching that your position is "right and just" will solve anything. As long as there is someone willing to buy something, there will be someone out there willing to sell it to them.

first of all, it's "blatant."

second, if sex sells, why is there (usually) no sex? This tease job has got to end - WE WANT MOAR SEX!

third, canadian dollar, or american dollar?

fourth, defer to my earlier post about intellectual criticism being indispensable in order to elevate any form of media to "art" (or just continue to qualify as protected free speech).

fifth, if games aren't worth talking about intellectually, then aren't they just a waste of time?

EDIT: This game has sex. And boobs. And is feminist. (Very, VERY NSFW) http://www.molleindustria.org/en/orgasm-simulator

In this post, someone avoiding all points brought up and trying to sound like they know what they are talking about.

I will try and educate you (though it may be difficult). "sex" is not just the physical act, you could try using a dictionary (big book with lots of words) and find out that the term also describes a differnece in gender and "the instinct or attraction drawing one sex toward another, or its manifestation in life and conduct." What ever form of currency you want, i know you are just being an ass but it really isn't that funny. I never once said video games weren't worth talking about intellectually, so you must have read the wrong post or you are as blind as you are ignorant. Yes video games are an art just as movies and books are. You can't tell me that all devolpers are out there to make a difference though, alot are out to make a dollar just like many films and books are. "but I maintain a shred of hope that the Devs are aiming for something higher (maybe art, even?). So I implore them to grow up and make their products worth taking seriously." Implying all sexual content is immature and not art? i think you may need to grow up first before telling others to.

Congrats on catching a spelling error though, you must feel so proud

I don't feel proud about catching the spelling error, but the unintentional irony of the rest of your post certainly made me smile.

I also didn't imply that all sexual content is immature or not-art; see the link I provided (again, very NSFW).

I do hope you develop a sense of humor some day.

I'm sorry if i sounded like an ass, i read some of your earlier posts and you make some good points, granted i still think you are missing the main point of why these games are made by a country mile.

 

[cbert]

I'm sorry if i sounded like an ass, i read some of your earlier posts and you make some good points, granted i still think you are missing the main point of why these games are made by a country mile.

hatchet buried - I'm frequently ass-ish and likewise apologize. And i agree to some extent with your point about market forces; game creators and publishers could capitalize immensely on changing the way sexuality is conveyed in games, making sex fun for the whole family.

If they do sex right (I confess I have no idea what "right" is - just ask my ex), it could mean both short-term profit from that mysterious 42% and long-term artistic legitimacy.

Plus we get (virtually) laid. Everybody wins.

EDIT: I will say that if more women were making games, we wouldn't need to have debates over poses, portrayals and boob physics. Maybe then we can get to some of the finer points of sexuality.

 

[gundamrx101]

If anything, I'm surprised that women didn't get mad about Other M. I know Bob liked it but it pissed over who Samus really is. I've read the manga, it did a better job than Other M as it stayed true to Samus' character. I've followed the series since it first came out, now after reading the manga where Samus got over her doubt, fear and angst after fighting Ridley THE FIRST TIME. I'm expected to believe that she's a whining, dependant, man obssessed, wishing she could be a mother type of woman? yeah, go eff yourself Yushio Sakatmoto. Yes she had a fear of Ridley, but she remembered that Ridley killed her parents and flew into a rage and pretty much got over everything the minute she blasted him into a burning corpse. Which turned out to be a very well done and emotional scene.

I'm sorry Bob, but Other M is not how you write a strong female lead or show her doubts and fears and emotions. Other M she didn't have any, she was too busy wondering what Adam thought (who was also protrayed wrong in that game too, and why she left; also wrong) the whole narrative was wrong, her characterization is wrong and quite frankly, I found it insulting. I grew up with Samus, I looked up to her, I knew her story, and how she felt. Now Sakatmoto wants me to accept that she's nothing more than a girl who has to rely on everyone and has major daddy issues. No she doesn't, she had a healthy relationship with her father till Mother Brain killed him, then she was adopted by the chozo and raised to be a warrior. That's it, she was injected with chozo DNA, the space pirates crap their pants when they hear her name and even though, she's still kind, and willing to help. Yes she misses her parents and kinda still broods, and takes the death of ANYONE personal because she's always trying to prevent it. She wants to help clean up the galaxy because everything was taken from her, but she doesn't forget she still has friends and an extended family that she can always go back to. She's independant, strong and determined, but she's still human. Other M forgot that.

Okay okay, Rant over. There, that's how much I love Samus.

 

[Evil Alpaca]

Very informative episode. I really enjoyed it.

This episode reminded me of Yahtzee's review of World of Warcraft; how the males of the horde races were composed of brutish shambling monstrosities but the females were simply sexy humans with a different covering. "Trolls with tits? They'd gouge their lungs out breastfeeding!"


What is sad, is that women don't need to be sexed up dolls to hold a gamer's attention. Women such as Alyx Vance (Half Life 2), Jade (Beyond Good & Evil), or Faith (Mirror's edge) are great female leads that never have to bare it all to hold the audience's attention.

Sex may sell but it not the only thing that sells. Well written characters can make money too.

 

[coates32]

Also, a few people mentioned 3rd Birthday, and I have this to say. I must be a disgrace to my gender since I loved that game and I didn't have much of a problem with the whole clothing thing (read: I thought it was stupid and moved on), again I just wrote it off as Japan being Japan and me not living there to get it, and that's not the game's fault.

No, I don't think you're a "disgrace to your gender" for liking 3rd Birthday. That would be like me thinking that I'm a disgrace to men for being okay with El Shaddai doing the same thing to its protagonist (who's a pretty boy).

SWEET!!

I will say when I played El Shaddai I couldn't help but make comparisons to 3rd Birthday when I saw that mechanic, and thought El Shaddai did it better....

Yeah, I have to agree with you about El Shaddai doing that better, mainly because that guy's paints don't get shredded to shorts (even if it did, I would found it very difficult to be offended). I'm still not sure if I would enjoy 3rd Birthday, due to the games other mechanics.

And to MovieBob's point, I never thought of it that way but I agree with him about there needs to be more variety on of female characters (especially protagonists) expression of body language.

3rd Birthday's mechanics takes getting used to, I know it took me a while to get used to them before I was comfortable with them.

Yeah, I will say that Western game companies do pose their female characters better and you can tell a lot about their personalities with how they pose better than Japanese female characters. I know there are some exceptions, but fighting games seem to be the worst offender when it comes to this, and I will never understand why that is.

I don't think fighting games are all that concerned about varied expressions (particularly DOA), but there is Rainbow Mika from Street Fighter Alpha 3 that comes to mind as far as more unque body and facial language. It could be possible that I'm looking to deeply into this, though.

 

[Cesilius]

I'm sorry if i sounded like an ass, i read some of your earlier posts and you make some good points, granted i still think you are missing the main point of why these games are made by a country mile.

hatchet buried - I'm frequently ass-ish and likewise apologize. And i agree to some extent with your point about market forces; game creators and publishers could capitalize immensely on changing the way sexuality is conveyed in games, making sex fun for the whole family.

If they do sex right (I confess I have no idea what "right" is - just ask my ex), it could mean both short-term profit from that mysterious 42% and long-term artistic legitimacy.

Plus we get (virtually) laid. Everybody wins.

EDIT: I will say that if more women were making games, we wouldn't need to have debates over poses, portrayals and boob physics. Maybe then we can get to some of the finer points of sexuality.

I agree and those changes would be most welcome. I do think though that if you reform the system (add female programmers such) , you will see an increase in games that focus less on sexuality. At the same time though i believe you will see little decrease in sexuality in gaming as it stands today. Sex has a very heavy influence in all arts.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

snip

Welcome to shades of gray, it's what the real world is made of

 

[Harry Mason]

Just when I though I couldn't love MovieBob any more, he makes an entire episode based on something I've been screaming at morons for years.

As far as the limited examples of women who are protrayed in ways that reflect their personality, here are my favorite examples:

"Alright, lets get in, kick some ass, and get out!"

"What the hell is that on the ceiling, and is it going to eat me?"

DETERMINATION

Yes, I realize there are some exceptions with Heather, but not in the ACTUAL GAME ITSELF.

 

[gundamrx101]

snip

Welcome to shades of gray, it's what the real world is made of

Except Other M really isn't a shade of gray. It's a steroetype who is packaged as a 'real human being'

 

[Warforger]

One of the thing that surprised me was how good of a job Space Marine did of presenting a female officer in it's storyline (And it's not just me: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/10076180504/warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most-suprisingly)... of all games, a shallow futuristic military male-ego boost porn game (And I'm saying that as a huge W40K fan, just look at my avatar, I actually painted the little guy myself ) isn't the one I expected to have a good grasp of female character design!

I was more under the impression she was inserted because of the impossibility of a love interest for the main character and so was made so that she gets as close as possible. I assumed since she felt the same enthusiasm for war as Titus did (poor choice for a name relic poor choice) she would be the closest to a love interest as possible in a nationalistic and theological government as the Imperium, and as to not make it look like a joke she wasn't dressed all skimpy (although the Orks still make it seem like a joke, and the story in general takes itself so seriously it is a joke). I guess this goes along with the argument though, but she was just another dull character in the quasi-theological-Fascist world of 40k.

That and some Imperial Guard fanboy's will also ***** and moan about how the Imperial Guard had to have their asses saved again by the Space Marines, this time by just 3 of them.

 

[KnightOfHearts]

I always found women like Rachel (from ninja gaiden) or Ivy Valentine (from soul calibur) to be kind of out of place.

On one hand you've got a women who'd probably fall over her gargantuan tits when she tried to swing a sword and then get mauled to pieces because she wasn't wearing more than a piece of string.

Then on the other hand you've got a ninja
In full ninja gear
Who's armed to the teeth and focuses on making shit dead as opposed to making the camera fly down his cleavage (if hypothetically the ninja female).



Who would you want on the front line against a demon invasion?

Jade from beyond good and evil was awesome and she didn't take off all her clothes and to a mock strip tease for the camera.
The boss from metal gear solid was equally awesome and even when she unzipped her top to show snake her scar (spoiler alert), she still wasn't a stupid submissive bimbo, proven by the fact that a few seconds later she'd just broke both your arms and shot you in the face...... twice and given you a huge rant on how to be a true patriot.

Gaming industry needs more female icons who are noted for their characters and not for their physical assets accentuated by their lack of clothing

 

[orangeapples]

compare:

subject A

subject B

Subject A is "Get the EF out of my way."

Subject B is DATASS!

Now that I'm looking at both of them, I have no idea if Zero Suit Samus would even fit in Power Armor Samus' form...

 

[Tarkand]

One of the thing that surprised me was how good of a job Space Marine did of presenting a female officer in it's storyline (And it's not just me: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/10076180504/warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most-suprisingly)... of all games, a shallow futuristic military male-ego boost porn game (And I'm saying that as a huge W40K fan, just look at my avatar, I actually painted the little guy myself ) isn't the one I expected to have a good grasp of female character design!

I was more under the impression she was inserted because of the impossibility of a love interest for the main character and so was made so that she gets as close as possible. I assumed since she felt the same enthusiasm for war as Titus did (poor choice for a name relic poor choice) she would be the closest to a love interest as possible in a nationalistic and theological government as the Imperium, and as to not make it look like a joke she wasn't dressed all skimpy (although the Orks still make it seem like a joke, and the story in general takes itself so seriously it is a joke). I guess this goes along with the argument though, but she was just another dull character in the quasi-theological-Fascist world of 40k.

That and some Imperial Guard fanboy's will also ***** and moan about how the Imperial Guard had to have their asses saved again by the Space Marines, this time by just 3 of them.

I think you're being unfair.

That being said, regardless of the reason why they put a solid female character in the game, the fact remain the game has a solid female character in it. Even if it happened by accident.

 

[General Vagueness]

IMO, this issue won't change until the gaming landscape, or demographic changes more then it has.

nope

In a medium such as gaming where the majority of the people playing your games like boobs, of course people are going to use boobs to market towards their interest. It doesn't make it a good thing to do, but it works, and profit is pretty much all that matters. Look at all the Fabio romance novels, they're just as bad if not worse than what gaming is doing, but they sell.

yep

Or maybe make a female character that you don't want to fuck?

these things get played by thousands of guys, so good luck with that-- someone is going to want to

Sex sells

yep

I had an idea of stuff to type but they pretty much covered it.

 

[crimson sickle2]

Interesting observation, I never noticed that. Although there are many examples against this thesis, I can think of a few examples to side with it. Nice episode.

 

[Catalyst6]

Hmm.
Hmmmmm.
It's not the clothes, it's how they wear them...
Interesting take on it! Food for thought, eh?