The Big Picture: Leave Michael Bay Alone

[roski]

Blaming Bay is just as easy as blaming the pigs, maybe you'll apologize to them in the future, or maybe not, because they represent a faceless, unaware mass. So I guess blaming them is even easier.
And then counting yourself amongst the rubble, that's just a demagogic cherry to top off a lovely fallacy flavored ice cream.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Michael Bay is the Leni Riefenstahl of our generation.

I don't remember Reifenstahl ever being called the 'death of cinema.' When people persecuted her it was because of political beliefs that she might not have actually possessed. Not to mention, she also had faaaaaaaaaar better cinematic track record than Michael Bay has ever had.

OT: I agree completely Bob, good show. I mean, I personally think it's a little humorous that this argument is coming from a website whose community seems to think it's 'above' the 'Bayformers' crowd, but will still eat up everything in regards to the worlds most expensive saturday morning cartoon series (AKA: the Marvel Studios films) like it's candied crystal meth, but that's a discussion for another time.

To be fair, the Marvel movies have a good amount of plot without being a drain, the action is snappy, well shot and we have investments to it. The Bayformer movies are just action with no structure.

To use a biology metaphor, the Bayformer movies are simple sponges, action with no structure or brain behind it. The marvel movies are like birds or fish, they have the muscle of action but they also have a plot skeleton and some brain behind the action

Edit: isn't Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will considered a brilliant film in it's cinematography and camera work?

 

[Banzaiman]

As always, I know no one cares about what I think, but I'm going to say it anyway.

I don't buy that we are all responsible for the 'poor quality' of movies and media in general these days. That isn't to say I disagree with the point Bob is making, I actually wholeheartedly agree. However, we are not all equally responsible for every movie that comes out and neither are we all the reason for these movies being bad. After all, we didn't all go out to see the Transformers movies.

The real 'problem' if you can call it that is the wildly different types of audiences that are out there. There is no general public or public audience, there are numerous audiences each after a certain thing. Just like Bob said in the video, the reason why Michael Bey is so horribly hated by everyone is because so many different audiences can find something to hate in his productions. We all hate him, but for different reasons.

And that is why movies like these are so popular.

Because with all the bitching and moaning you hear from allegedly everyone, there is an audience for this kind of thing and they are the reason more of them are being made - they pay to see it, and they'll pay to see more. But there are also audiences who very much don't don't don't like Bey's movies, as you can see above. There will never be a perfect movie industry - or any industry for that matter - because we all want something different out of our product. There will be product that you don't like, as there will be product you love that someone else hates. You might hate that slop, but obviously someone else loves it. And I can always go for some more fries.

Oh, and please don't try to bring up objective quality. That's a whole different - though admittedly related - debate.

Chin up for those of you who do hate the Bey movies, however, because we live in a world where change is the norm. It might take a few years, it might be a few decades, but eventually these movies will fade just as they manifested. I'm with you, by the way, in that I'm hoping more "intelligent" movies will be made and more audiences will be happy with those too and more dissatisfied with the ones like Bey's Transformers. We can do our part to hurry up the process, but please, don't hate your fellow human beings for liking what you don't. I know how hard it is not to.

 

[cathou]

The people who watch Michael Bay movies also enjoy Community, Arrested Development, Game of Thrones, CSI, NCIS, The Goonies, Citizen Kane, Troll 2, love KISS both ironically and unironically, hate KISS, think Goldeneye is the greatest video game ever, think Call of Duty is the greatest game ever, think Halo is the greatest game ever, love Citizen Kane, never saw Citizen Kane, thought Sucker Punch was brilliant, thought Sucker Punch was garbage, and on and on.

They just like the movie. That's all. It signifies nothing more than the ability to enjoy a big dumb action movie that is made by Michael Bay. They're brilliant, they're stupid, they're every point in between.

We do this every time something is a success that we don't personally enjoy; we try to discredit the people who enjoy it as if they're some mass of folks who signify everything that is wrong with the world , forgetting that the numbers are so huge that they permeate every level of society. They're the same kind of people who made Star Wars and Raiders of the Lost Ark classic films. They're same people who (statistically speaking) embraced Dark Knight and rejected Green Lantern. They're just people who wanted to see giant robots punch each other while stuff 'sploded.

exactly what i was thinking. and i understand it more than ever before now that i'm a mom. i used to go to the movie theatre twice a week, and rent 3 or 4 movies per day. with a 3 months baby and a 1 and half daughter, i've been to moie theatre 3 time this year. and i rent a few movies per week, but with the kids, the job, the house to keep clean and my other activities, i'm Lucky if i have actual time to watch them. do i want to see an intelligent slow paced movie thriller when i manage to go to the movie theatre ? hell no, i want to see something that is Worth watching on a big screen, an experience that i wont have back home, so bring out the explosions, and kill my brain cells with stupidity because that's what i want. i've paid 28$ for two tickets, 6$ for a popcorn, and my babysiter will cost me another 40 or 50$. that's almost 100$ for one movie. i'll choose a transformer movie, no matter how bad it is over a movie like monuments men, which is very good, but i'll rent it later.

beside i kind of fed up with people that always rent against blockbuster movies made for the masses. i like movies, i like all kind of movies, including big explosion dumb movies, because sometimes i'm just in a mood for that. some people have to stop thinking that the fringe of the population who goes to specialized forums, and that know more that the average joe about movies represent a majority. it doesnt. the same people ask every year why there's another call of duty comming out, that "real gamers" dont play them anymore. it's because hardcore gamers are not the majority of people that play games, they just thing they are the only one that count, which is elitism at it best

 

[Peaceful Winter]

Finally a serious film critic is saying the truth about who is to blame for the current state of the movie industry. I wonder how long it will take for the video game critics to start blaming the real culprits for the oversaturation of "brown and gray" shooters on the market.

 

[Something Amyss]

Finally a serious film critic is saying the truth about who is to blame for the current state of the movie industry. I wonder how long it will take for the video game critics to start blaming the real culprits for the oversaturation of "brown and gray" shooters on the market.

They already are? I mean, it's no secret that these games sell because they're popular. It's a trite, shallow point and might have been "telling it like it is" a decade ago, but not now.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

I dont hate michael Bay. i hate what he does. And i think he is a genius to sell so well his awful products. I know i sure couldnt do that.

See, when you take one item at a time that he does, yes you can find other directors do these mistakes. However none of them manage to mix these together in such a manner as to still get slipped behind the summer blocbuster title. hes a genius of making bad movies popular. and for that, i kind of respect him.

As far as "we are the problem", i think this was the smartest thing i hear bob ever say.

FYI, high-quality DVD's are not released on the same day as the cinema release, and therefore the only torrents you'll find are CAM rips - what's the point of watching a Transformers movie on potato-cam with non-existent audio quality?
People will pay to watch the proper version in cinemas and IMAX.

id say a large reason of WHY people pirate these movies is because we cant buy good quality ones. and DVD is hardly good quality, we have cam rips way above DVD quality. this is because DVD uses antequated mpeg2 codec. which was good when it was designed, is horrible now. give me blue ray on day 1 and ill buy A LOT of them. dont and ill forget about the movie in those 6 months it takes you to release it. and no, i dont want to watch a movie when i have to drive there for an hour and then listen to teens giggle behind me throughout, so i wont go to the cinema. not to mention extortionate prices.

Whoops yeah I meant 1080p bluray, not DVD lol. Movies like Transformers pretty much exist to be played at 1080p minimum.

To be honest the only reason cinemas are even relevant in this era (where a large percentage of people own huge TVs and surround sound) is because the bluray release is delayed for weeks/months. And the only reason bluray is delayed is because the moment someone gets their hands on one it goes straight onto the internet and makes torrent sites explode. If 1080p copies were released on day 1 then movie studios/etc would lose a HUGE portion of their revenue. Last I heard something like 70-80% of their money is made in first 2 weeks of being in cinema. The money coming from purchased bluray copies is almost nothing compared to the money coming from the cinema.
Not to mention the appeal of bluray/DVD collections is dying as hard drives have become significantly cheaper over the last decade, 1TB can easily hold something like 150-200+ 1080p movies (encoded efficiently of course, 50gb raws are a pain ).

Cinemas wouldn't exactly turn into ghost towns (especially not Imax) because there's still a certain thrill to get out of watching stuff on a 40 foot screen surrounded by 15+ booming speakers, something that just can't be achieved at home. A few people will still pay for it.
But yeah, overall Hollywood would lose a huge chunk of revenue and it could mean disaster.

So bluray release will continue to be delayed by weeks/months for the foreseeable future. Cinemas absolutely have to stay relevant. I can't think of any other way Hollywood turn a profit after blowing $100-200 million on making such movies.

Anyway Transformers is far from the only movie series to which all this applies to.

 

[kwagamon]

Damn, got a little angrier than I'm used to there. He's not wrong, but I wasn't expecting that level of anger.

 

[Strazdas]

Whoops yeah I meant 1080p bluray, not DVD lol. Movies like Transformers pretty much exist to be played at 1080p minimum.

To be honest the only reason cinemas are even relevant in this era (where a large percentage of people own huge TVs and surround sound) is because the bluray release is delayed for weeks/months. And the only reason bluray is delayed is because the moment someone gets their hands on one it goes straight onto the internet and makes torrent sites explode. If 1080p copies were released on day 1 then movie studios/etc would lose a HUGE portion of their revenue. Last I heard something like 70-80% of their money is made in first 2 weeks of being in cinema. The number of people purchasing the blu-ray copies is absolutely tiny compared to the number of people who are paying to watch it in cinema. The appeal of bluray/DVD collections is dying as hard drives have become significantly cheaper over the last decade, 1TB can easily hold something like 150-200+ 1080p movies (compressed with efficient encoding ofc, nobody likes 50gb raw blurays ).

Then again, cinemas wouldn't exactly turn into ghost towns (especially not Imax) because there's still a certain thrill to get out of watching stuff on a 40 foot screen surrounded by 15+ booming speakers, something that just can't be achieved at home. But yeah they would lose a huge chunk of revenue and it could mean disaster for Hollywood.

But Transformers is far from the only movie series to which that applies.

See, the problem is that nowadays its qutie popular to send blue-ray to smaller movie theaters. they use blue-ray players to project these movies. these blue-ray leak. Pirates often get it BEFORE the legal costumers do. this is terrible for sale incentive.

Maybe its worth thinking that more people would buy Blue-rays if they were actually available. Like i said, i would buy far more if i wouldnt have to wait 6 months for release. the reason most of thier money is made in cinema is because cinema is the ONLY legitimate way to see the movie. also its worth to remmeber that snydication is often udnervalued and actually brings quite some money if its the type of movie that likes to "play on every christmas".

As far as hard drive size and internet speeds. yes, thats why netflix got popular. thats why i was arguing for years for good quality download service, because currently the only way to download good quality movies is the illegal one. thats missing a huge market right there.

I like 50 GB Bluerays. they are far from RAW though. [a minute of 1080p 8bit 25fps video that isnt compressed takes 9.3 GB[/b] A blueray can hold a whoopping 5 minutes of uncompressed video. Now, of course there are some codecs that remain pretty losless unless your looking for faults that can compress it somewhat. however it will enver look equally good as raw. raw is 155.5 MB/sec stream. Thats why we hit HDMI 1.1 limit and need HDMI 2.0, theres A LOT of data. Now, that is not to say that i want to download RAW, however the "compressed so bad it may as well be 480p" netflix/youtube quality or the illegal 8 GB BRRips arent anywhere close to what i want. I do like the concept of the better quality 25 GB rips that float around in illegal space. why cant you sell me that? its not like they dont have it - they have bluerays after all.

Oh and 1TB is small nowadays. this is why people laughed at consoles 500GB, PCs have moved past 500GB 6 years ago. I have ONLY 4TB and i run out

what is a diaster for hollywood is the same thing that was a disaster for the music industry - they think their 19th century trade models apply in modern world and the world has moved past them. so they try to enforce 19th century trade models by buying laws.

Capcha: dream big
I do, i dream in 4k!

 

[Magmarock]

I'm not a fan of Michael Bay movies either and as a result I don't watch them. It's hard for me to get angry at something I don't see. I saw Armageddon and Bad Boys one and I didn't really like either of them. As such I tend to stay away from his movies.

This included that Transformer movies. However, I must confess that I was never a fan of the cartoon either. In fact as a kid I can remember not liking the show at all. I was into the toys and loved them. I used to see the toys as getting two toys in one, it was great fun.


But I had my own ideas of what the back story for the characters and who the good guys and bad guys were. The show conflicted with that. I felt almost as if the show it self was telling me how to play with my own toys and I didn't like anything telling me hoe to play with my own stuff.

It is interesting how everyone watches these moves and then hates but continues to watch them anyway.


In short I never got on the hating Michael Bay wagon, I simply avoid his movies, the same way I avoid Call of Duty games.

 

[Vault101]

beside i kind of fed up with people that always rent against blockbuster movies made for the masses. i like movies, i like all kind of movies, including big explosion dumb movies, because sometimes i'm just in a mood for that. some people have to stop thinking that the fringe of the population who goes to specialized forums, and that know more that the average joe about movies represent a majority. it doesnt. the same people ask every year why there's another call of duty comming out, that "real gamers" dont play them anymore. it's because hardcore gamers are not the majority of people that play games, they just thing they are the only one that count, which is elitism at it best

my issue is accepting that "big block buster" has to ="bad"

Edge of Tomorrow (which unfortatnly under performed) is an action movie..but a GOOD action movie, not brilliant but GOOD, Gravity was a hit and a thriller and that was good...the marvel movies have been more or less consistantly "good"

I havent seen a bay movie since the 1st transformers but untill I hear that his portrayly of women/minorites gets better than I see no reason to excuse his shittyness...but hey if people like his stuff then more power to them

 

[TwiZtah]

The only problem I have with his movies is that the action scenes, specifically for Transformers, consists of cutting every third nanosecond, so not only do you not see what the hell is happening, you get nausea too.

 

[scw55]

As someone who rarely gets a chance to go to the cinema due to expenditure and distance to travel, I have to choose what movies I go and see carefully.
I cannot afford going to see an "average movie".
I have to see a "great movie".

Mediocrefilms belong on the TV where if I am not enjoying it, I haven't lost much.

I do agree the problem is the BAMSPLOSION demographic. People want to see pretty things explode.

Whilst I want to see something and be very happy that I saw it. (Lord of the Rings, Happy Potters, Scott Pilgrim, Kick Ass 1)

 

[RedDeadFred]

The entire time I was watching this I kept thinking "the reason people hate this guy especially is because of how popular his movies are." Then you took the words right out of my mouth. While I do agree that it's the average American's shitty taste in movies that is the main issue, I think critics are probably berating him more to try and wake those average Americans up. Then again, those probably aren't the types of people to actually read reviews in the first place so you're probably completely right.

Edit: Then again, who am I to say that someone else has shitty taste in anything? If someone enjoys some form of entertainment, they should be allowed to continue enjoying it as long as it's not hurting anyone else. Plenty of good movies still get made despite Bay's movies being successful. Really, there's no reason to get so worked up over it.

 

[Hyperactiveman]

I don't watch his movies because I want to watch HIS MOVIES... I watch them because I love movies, I love going to the movies. Sadly when I go to watch a movie with friends it turns out that stuff like Transformers, Armageddon, The Island, etc. rank pretty high on the vote for consensus.

Lately his movies have become utter trash... Not because of any "childhood ruining", "sex selling" or even "over the top action" aspects. Bur because of the extremely awful visual and audio aspects that make watching his movies give me clustering headaches, and eye strain like you wouldn't believe.

I'm talking of course about the colour filters, the lens glare abuse, the drunk cameraman "make action look awesome-r" technique, the cranked up volume when there's action but turned down when dialog. Also seeing as most of movies these days are being built for 3D everything that can be thrown in the viewers' faces, is.

TLR - His movies don't suck, but the visual techniques he employs really hurt my eyes.

 

[Madman123456]

What's with the sudden non-hate of michael bay? Sure hollywood has problems, so many of those that one may be forgiven for just stopping to care about new movie releases entirely. Like i did for example, last time i went to the movies was for some circle jerk that a little town where i live produced by itself and it wasn't very good.

Anyway, michael bay is in many ways the worst incarnation of all of hollywoods problems and that does deserve some hate.

Burning millions of dollars for special effects that still don't look as good then the stuff george lucas did before he went insane? Michael bay is the master of that. All the things moviebob mentioned that other people do as well or even before michael bay? Well, bay does it worse, more blatant and he doesn't even get a bonus for bringing anything new to anything.

The american godzilla movie back in 1999 or something brought something new to the franchise; godzilla can be killed now.
Wasn't a particular good new thing but it was new at least.
Bay doesn't even get that.

So yeah, bay is just a stand in for everything wrong with modern cinema but then again, while everyone is guilty of making shitty movies, he manages to one up them all.

Here's another guilty party: the film critics. You guys know how many people go to the cinema to watch and hear explosions because their home cinema isn't quite as big as the cinema system in the freaking cinema. A demo reel like the transformers movies would be quite enough for that. I went to the movies for that.

Big explosions on the screen will drown out the cellphone talkers two rows in front of me, subtle gestures and brilliant acting, no matter how good, will not.
It might move me when i watch the movie at home, where the experience wont be disrupted.

I went to the cinema for movies with explosions because the cinema has a better screen and a better sound system then i have at home. For movies that don't need that i don't need to go to the cinema. I can watch those at home and have a better experience.
Which might be a reason why explosion movies do better at the box office.

 

[Spyre2k]

I think people like to rag on Bay because for the majority of his movies there isn't much else to talk about. Big action scenes with little to discuss other than to state what is going on. Characters that often tend to be one dimensional to the point that often all you can do is state what they did since it's often plot driven more than character driven. Which becomes more obvious when you actually start to think about their actions and how illogical they are at times.

Bay is fast food for movies. Not exactly beneficial but it satisfies your craving for the time being. And speaking of fast food comparison, Bob's comment about it's the audience's fault for continuing to go see them not the directors fault for giving them what they wanted reminds we of back in the day when a bunch of hate was directed at the fast food industry. You had people claiming it was McDonald's fault they were fat, when really it was the fact that they would eat enough to feed a family of four at every meal.

 

[elvor0]

I've always blamed the public! *shakes fist* People are bastards, people are why we can't have nice things! People are why Grown Ups 2 beat Pacific Rim at the box office in its opening week. People are why Adam Sandler, Kristen Stewart, Shia LeBouf, Megan Fox and Michael Bay still get work! You're all bastards!