The Big Picture: Link Be A Lady

[carnex]

Link as a female. Why not. I'm generally against gender swaps, but as Bob posted every game has a different link. Why not have a female link. Down the line they could make a character designer for player avatar. Now that would be interesting, to see how many players create female or male link and what visual characteristic they give their characters. I always yearned for this kind of info from open games.

As for idea that it would be earth shattering? I sincerely doubt. It would be earth shattering if people bought it BECAUSE it was female link in significant percentage but I find it hard to believe even that. Other than that, who cares.

 

[DrunkenElfMage]

Wait, Link actually being a woman would be a big difference? No, Link has always looked like a woman. Sorry. Unless there's actual nudity then it won't make any difference as far as I can tell.

Pretty sure that that is the point in the long run. If it doesn't make any difference for Link to be a girl, than why not do it?

If it doesn't make any difference for link to be a girl, then why make him one?

/WGDF

I didn't read through the thread, so I'll guess that I'm about the third person who said this.

I guess because my mind just works in such a way that if I see something that can be changed without any obvious consequences, I say do it because you might turn out getting something that was even better than before.

Sticking with tradition for traditions sake is a terrible reason to do anything. If you have a chance to change something up, do it.

Besides, we already have plenty of male Links. Whats one female Link going to do besides give the world a decent example of a female playable character? Or prove that ultimately your gender doesn't matter, you are still the hero of the story?

If there's the option to toggle link's gender, then sure, why not? But changing the sex of an iconic character just because it "can" be changed is an affront to those fans who grew up with him trying to save her (the princess) and what has always seemed like an eternal love story (not to say Zelda can't be male this time too).

You make changes when they make sense. When there's a reason to do it. You don't make changes just because changes can be made. Screwing with figures of iconic lore can bring down all kinds of hell. Giving more options or making a change for actual reasons and not just because of a lack of consequences is where things become meaningful.

Er, something doesn't have to be "meaningful" in order for you to have a reason to do it. Waiting for a "meaningful" reason to do anything means that you will probably be waiting around a long time to DO anything.

Hell, the act in itself will probably BECOME meaningful. So many fantastic things have come about from people just going "Hey what if we did this?"; Samus's gender for one thing. That was a last minute design choice inspired by watching Alien.

You would be surprised about what you can change or take away from something, and still have that something be recognized as Iconic and changing Link's gender would probably reveal to the player how meaningless his/her gender truly mattered for them to enjoy a Legend of Zelda videogame. Minds would genuinely be expanded. And if the decision somehow hurt nintendo in the long run, they could make another Zelda game with the Status quo back in effect. No harm no foul.

By the way, TECHNICALLY you could still have Link and Zelda fall in love with one another even if they were both girls. This is the twenty first century dude. (not calling you out as homophobic or anything though). In fact, in a way that would improve upon the depiction of their love for each other as something that not only rises above time and space, but gender as well. But it would be asking a lot of Nintendo to be tackling gay relationships on top of a gender swap. One step at a time.

 

[Silvanus]

It wouldn't work within the game's mythology. She's got the triforce of wisdom, where are you going to leave the one of courage? It doesn't make sense for her to be the hero. It's not her roll.

Keep in mind that Link has done a great deal of adventuring and bravery and hero-stuff even when he hasn't held the Triforce of Courage. The separate pieces will gift themselves to whoever embodies bravery, wisdom, or power-- so if the reincarnation of Zelda embodied bravery, and Link wisdom, the pieces would switch owners.

The pieces are not always bound to one owner/reincarnation.

What a load of nonsense, Link is an established character, a typical case of feminism going too far. Conceed this and before long there will be calls to make Tyrion Lannister in the next series of Game of Thrones a woman too.

He's an established character who is not always the same person, remember. The Link of one game is not always the Link of another, but rather (often, but not always) a reincarnation. Comparisons with characters who are simply single individuals are examples of false equivalence.

Link is a boy. Zelda is a girl. If you're going to flip it that mean's Zelda will be a boy

Why?

My problem isn't people wanting Link to be a girl. My problem is people are ONLY suggesting Link be a girl. If we change Link to a girl, why can't Zelda be a boy? Why can't Ganondorf be a girl? It would be nice to have a game where the villain isn't male. Because apparently being a male is evil, but if it's a girl, she has to be the goody-goody.

I agree with this in spirit.

Ganondorf is a bit more of a problem to give a different gender, though-- he's more often the same incarnation than Link and Zelda. He is usually sealed away or imprisoned somehow after his defeat in one game, but doesn't always die, and breaks free or escapes in the next arc.

Wouldn't stop them giving him a female reincarnation-- it would just mean they may have to write in a death.

 

[marioandsonic]

Rather than just making Link a straight-up female character, I don't understand, and have never understood, why Link's gender is not a choice for the player. Really, Link's gender makes zero difference because Link really has no personality. Link is a blank-slated Silent Protagonist so that players can better project themselves onto him, right? Well then it really shouldn't make a difference if he's a man or a woman in terms of the story and it really never has. Hell, you could even throw in small customizations, like skin tone or hair styles. I mean, they could still keep the 'classic' Link style for mash-up games and marketing, seems to work out well for Mass Effect.

Honestly, I'd be down with that.

Even just a "male or female" option would be cool. And I doubt Nintendo would have any real issues with that. We've had that option in Pokemon since the early 2000s.

 

[JediMB]

As far as making Zelda a man goes, I think that would be a little bit more difficult than making Link a woman, since Zelda is basically the reincarnated avatar of the goddess Hylia.

Link, meanwhile, is basically The Hero Hyrule Needs Right Now.

To be fair, even though Hylia is gendered as female reincarnation generally ignores the physical gender of any given incarnation's body. The main reason that Hylia was likely gendered as female in the first place is that she represents a lot of typically "feminine" traits, as long as these traits were passed on to the next incarnation of the soul it wouldn't really be that drastic a change regardless of gender. Same goes for Link, as long as his courage and willingness to help the downtrodden makes the jump it wouldn't be that crazy to make him female.

It's really rather interesting that all the god-level entities in Zelda lore are female-gendered. First there's the "Old Gods" who created the world to begin with; Din, Nayru and Farore; and then there's Hylia who was the protector of the Hylian people.

Anyway, another difference between Link and Zelda in this situation would be that there is a canonical tradition of the royal family to name the princesses Zelda. I believe The Wind Waker timeline has a tradition of dressing boys up in green tunics (in honor of the vanished Hero of Time), but that's as far as it goes. Canonically, each incarnation of "Link" could very well have an entirely unique name, which could be why previous heroes are never actually mentioned by name.

Now something just occurred to me: we've never seen a queen of Hyrule. We've had kings, a prince, and (of course) princesses, but not a single reference to a queen. One might speculate that perhaps only one female heir of Hylia's bloodline can exist at a time, but that would be pretty dark for a Nintendo franchise.

EDIT:
Also, I made a mistake earlier. Zelda isn't the avatar of Hylia, but rather Hylia herself reincarnated as a mortal.

 

[11zxcvb11]

am i the only one who wants to play as a female ganondorf?

 

[LoneWolf83]

Link always looked effeminate, how is this a thing?

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Disagree strongly.

Link, to me, has always just been a driving force to stop Ganon at this iteration. He's always been fun, or grizzled, or new and curious to what is laid out before him... but he hasn't really ever been well developed in my perception.

Just to take someone who normally doesn't have that much of a character other than "I quest because it's right| and "Totes always silent, y'all" and give that person boobs and a vagina... how is that really such a movement for female equality.

Make a new character. Make a new Story. Make new things for women to hold onto. Don't just let them borrow a role for a while.

 

[agent9]

as cool as it would be in a way Link is still link. dtoid already covered and confirmed this.

 

[Ukomba]

Didn't know Rule 63 was some kind of mile stone to shoot for, strange.

Also, it's feminists telling young girls there's a glass ceiling and that they'll start in second place. All the talk of an oppressive patriarchy demoralize and enforces the perception of helplessness. It doesn't even have to be true at this point, feminists are beating them selves up with its perceived existance. The belief is practically self sustaining at this point.

Even Bob is so busy degrading the white male that he's ignoring the hundereds of games with female protagonists. The way to build women ups isn't to tell them they can't get ahead, and it's not to gender guilt men.


Motivation, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Fairy Fatale]

Game Overthinker is just... terrible.

I appreciate the need to plug his stuff... on his own stuff... fair enough. But gahhhh.

 

[Robert Marrs]

I could care less what gender link is but it seems strange to just switch it up. The only logical reason for that would be to get some brownie points with the special snowflake community. Hell if this shuts up the serial complainers even for a few minutes I will gladly send links gender up the river.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Why not go the whole hog and change every beloved character's sex? Larry Croft, Mistress Chief, Mary-O, Samus Aman. My point is that it's much easier to demand other people change things about their IPs they've owned and made games for for 20+ years, it's harder to make games with good female protagonists and get more females making games.

And it's not like Nintendo's shying away from female protagonists. Bayonetta, Zelda, Midna, Impa and more in Hyrule Warriors, Splatoon, Peach and Rosalina in SM3DW and of course Samus are all playable without them needing to change anything about established characters.

 

[ForumSafari]

Don't do that. No one likes that show any more and people probably chose not to watch because of it. It also has a severe shilling vibe to it.

 

[wulf3n]

Hanlon's razor isn't a viable defense for this when they keep doing it.

Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.

Why not? Stupid people do the same stupid things over and over again all the time. It's part of being stupid.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice.

I wasn't ruling it out, just pointing out there's no evidence of malice. Therefore the conclusion of such is invalid.

 

[Jennacide]

I just want to say, because now Bob is doing it too, the whole AC Unity thing wasn't outright sexist. It was stupid, badly worded (they are a natively French company), and LAZY. The reason there isn't a female character in the co-op is because you're just 4 different versions of the player character. They were trying to say the couldn't afford to make two protagonists, one male and one female, for the entire game. Which yes, we all know is bullshit since they wouldn't have to make any new riggings as they already have the model and rig for Aveline, and could easily change the outward appearance while keeping the rigging.

They aren't doing it to be spiteful to women, they're doing it because they're fucking LAZY. And maybe a little cheap.

I agree that the wording was poor, but if the meaning was "we can't afford to create two different characters for the entire game", then it is NOT bullshit, it is a valid point. Remember that AC is a game with several hours worth of script, voice acting and localization, with well defined characters; which means it would change everything from what your character's name is pronounced by lots of other characters, to interactions and possibly story elements. To simply say: lets replace this model for a woman, like it was some sort of mod, while keeping everything else the same, and call it a day, is simplistic and amateurish. To make it properly at this point in development would be an exorbitant amount of work.

Other games with voice acting have the option to choose the genre, but they are built from the beginning with tricks like addressing them neutrally (The Boss in Saints Rows, Dovahkiin in Skyrim, Commander Shepard in Mass Effect) or simply didn't give a shit about defining the character: in Saints Rows 4, you can have sex with pretty much anything; in Skyrim, you can marry anything (regardless of sex or race) and you can walk naked into a sacred temple and no one will bat an eye. Those characters are defined by your actions, not by the story the developers are trying to make. Assassins Creed was never a game with undefined characters, so that you could insert yourself into them; and now people are blaming them for that...

At this point, I feel like complaining that you can't choose a woman as the main character in a story already defined is like complaining there are not two versions of Lord of the Rings, one with the fellowship comprised entirely by women.

Well, it's not bullshit, true, but it still borders on lazy excuses. A better excuse would have simply been "hey, the co-op is the same guy 4 times, and we want to focus on just this one guys life." That would have been okay. What got them in trouble was the wording, but also it's still a lame excuse when you realize what they were going for. As you said, there are tricks to get around it, the best option for a game like AC would let you pick gender, but make the character name be locked, like Shepard in Mass Effect. Have an assassin named Alex, now you're gender neutral. And since AC still hasn't ever touched on romance (to my knowledge, not played all the smaller titles), you should be in the clear.

Would it be more expensive? Yes, but only for hiring another VA. And that's still not an exceptionally good excuse in this case, as the AC series is one of the higher grossing games currently in the industry. If they only want to make a male playable, they need to state that. Trying to beat around the bush did nothing but make them look stupid and a bit sexist. And remember that the reason we are bringing it up is because we'd like to start seeing some more female protagonists, instead of 'generic rugged white male.' Ubisoft gets extra beat up in this because they already did it with Aveline, which was great, and then made this poorly worded comment and lost most of their goodwill. (Or what was left of it after the Watch_Dogs PC version fiasco)

 

[Orekoya]

Hanlon's razor isn't a viable defense for this when they keep doing it.

Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.

Why not? Stupid people do the same stupid things over and over again all the time. It's part of being stupid.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice.

I wasn't ruling it out, just pointing out there's no evidence of malice. Therefore the conclusion of such is invalid.

I don't have to go far into the past to look for potential evidence when within the past year we had David Jaffe [https://twitter.com/davidscottjaffe/status/425441182689144833] saying that Felrender's harassment [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BedGcTWCUAAArm-.png:large] from another game writer was at least partially her fault [http://i.somethingawful.com/u/ctstalker/2014/OhJaffe.jpg]. And that's the game makers, the community.. well, let's just say that Fat, Ugly or Slutty [http://fatuglyorslutty.com/] exists for a reason.

 

[SNCommand]

Not likely to happen if you ask me, Nintendo is not exactly famous for "shaking the boat", what we can do is cross fingers and hope for another good Metroid game

Honestly I've always felt Playstation was better at representing both genders, you got for example the standalone expansion to inFamous: Second Son having you play as Fetch in inFamou: First Light, and that's with Echo taking over the reins of the Killzone franchise apparently with the death of Kellan, quite similar to the protagonist in Socom 4: Special Forces getting killed halfway through and being replaced by the female Lt. Park, Ellie being a playable character for parts of the game in Last of Us, main character in Last of Us: Left Behind, a female protagonist in Heavy Rain, the main character in Beyond: Two Souls being female, Nariko in Heavenly Sword etc.

 

[Nurb]

Oh Bob... Bob please.

Screwing with an established character will always be seen as bad. "Why not a woman jus cuz" isn't an excuse because there's no process for link to change like Dr. Who which COULD produce a female doctor (I think). Otherwise, why not a male black Link? Why not a trans-gender Pakistani if you're wanting to change established characters "just cuz".

However, a different lead character in that universe that's female would be just fine and no one would say anything because it's a new character being established. Same thing went for a dark skinned spiderman, people were into that because it wasn't "black Peter Parker".

 

[PoloniumFist]

Female or not, I'm totally gay for this new Link look. Also that whole reincarnation thing, way over my head. I need to go through and play all the Legend of Zelda again.

My plan is to get a Wii U in the next year (decide when the LoZ release date is announced), but I don't know if I can play all the LoZ games on it as far back as, say Ocarina of Time.