The Big Picture: Link Be A Lady

[Seldon2639]

Looks like someone has been drinking the Anita Sarkeesian kool-aid again. "No female characters in new IP" except for Splatoon, which is all female characters. And the continuing kvetching about ACU not having a playable female character as though Ubisoft's argument were "we couldn't figure out a female character, so we made all male characters" as opposed to "doing it in multiplayer wasn't worth it, since it would just be a reskin and one the player never actually plays as, and would have been nearly impossible to add to the storyline of the game because we'd already done all of that."

Is this weird chimera of Bob and Anita (Bonita?) really saying that the fact that Ubisoft chose to make a game with a certain plot and certain main character is bad because it was a male lead? Did Beyond Good and Evil suck because it featured "only" a female lead?

 

[templar1138a]

Sure, I'd play a Zelda game where Link was a woman. Heh, besides, it'd throw a wrench into the whole "Zelda's the girl" thing.

Unfortunately, I don't think that's going to happen, no matter how much noise there was at E3. Because Nintendo is a Japanese company and doesn't have a track record of making things based on what the gamers want.

 

[EyeReaper]

Ehh, Like a few others in this thread, I would rather just play as Zelda than play as a female link. But still kidnapped and all. Basically, you know those chapters in the first Paper Mario where you play as Peach and you sneak around the castle subtly trying to foil Bowser's Plans? Yeah, I want a full game of that.

Also, I keep seeing people say they want a tomboy Zelda if Zelda's playable. But why though? Maybe it's just me, but If I'm playing as a Princess, I want to be a refined, elegant Lady-of-War, but that might be personal taste

Captcha: play a game. Okay Captcha, I will! I just picked up the PARANOIA bundle and I've been itching to test this out.

 

[Kenjitsuka]

Oh thank god. I was terrified we were going to have to sit through another week of Game Overthinker.

Bob, I love most of your stuff, but I just do not like Game Overthinker.

Exactly!!!
My mood dropped instantly, and had these grating characters been on screen a second longer I'd have turned off the video alltogether.

DON'T bring them back again.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

Link a bit of a blank slate to begin with so, him being a woman? I doubt anyone would... Oh Now we Really Need Ganon to be a Woman, that would be super!

 

[wooty]

I still don't get the fury over this topic, why should it matter what gender a character is?

Give me a female as a main character, I'll play the game if its good. Give me a male as a main character, I'll play the game if its good. Gameplay overrides gender in my eyes.

 

[1066]

"Gaming has never had this and wouldn't it be weird if Nintendo of all people were to do it?"

Okay, paraphrased, but still, and not watching it again. Coming from a guy who stated outright a few weeks ago that people who don't research their stuff before sounding off about it are idiots, and then went on about how Marvel heroes are subversions of old legends and archetypes...

I laughed out loud at that. As a hint: Hulk = Werewolf. You know... tortured soul fighting to retain his humanity and keep the cursed beast within under control. Or: a person fighting to contain primal urges/id.

The others he stated are about as obvious.

But in this...

Samus. Just Samus.

You know, that icon of female ability done with a perfectly executed pulling of the rug? Back in the 80s? You may have heard of it.

There was a thing, it was a while ago... oh yeah, in the far off year of 2010. When they handed off the reins of the franchise and made her more submissive, etc. Gamers all took that well, celebrating that they had...

No... wait... no... they all lost their s*** over that betrayal of the character. Yeah... "fanboys" can't handle strong female characters. Yep.

Oh, and the gender flipping thing. Nintendo did something similar in another game. It was crossdressing, granted, and a male character revealed to be a woman. What was it called...

Oh yeah. Ocarina of Time, but yeah, you've probably never heard of one of the most celebrated games of all time... in the same franchise. But, well, no one ever heard of that, so probably doesn't count...

 

[V4Viewtiful]

What, exactly would you define as a token character? I've always seen it as one character thrown in to the main group of characters for the sake of an issue, or diversity. Example, Token Black, the only black kid in South Park.

Not the best example as it's played for jokes rather than to fill a kind of quota.

I miss Chef

 

[tm96]

If they do this it can send a message to the world that video games have evolved of these past few decades and like you said give TV, films or books a blue shell to the face.

Also I have to say this I was fine with the Game Overthinker thing from last week since I like watching for what stupid stuff Bob will pull out the cliche box and opinions from different viewpoints of gaming i.e. the "Retrothinker" a viewpoint of someone just diving into modern gaming after a long dormancy. But still I think the names are stupid Retrothinker why not past Bob or Anti-Bob.

 

[shadowmagus]

I really wish you had done this in like, two weeks when all this "representation in games" talk had died off because I would have been more inclined to pay attention. Otherwise, you're just band-wagoning and throwing pictures of AC:U around.

For the record, a female Link would be an interesting take and worth looking into.

Now I'm going to leave this site until this whole gender representation "discussion" goes away...because its nonsensical and dumb.

 

[Amaror]

Also, CDProjekt are Polish devs, not like the US-dominant game devs who make the majority of "burly white dude" game's protagonists. Cultural variation does make a difference, and since they're one of the few prominent Eastern European devs out there, I don't think they deserve as much crap as say Activision does for their constant lack of well-written female protagonists.

Also worthy note, the Witcher is adapted from a series of fantasy novels, so staying true to the source material is a concern there, that said, no reason other stories in that world couldn't be told from a womans perspective and it's not like it doesn't have it's fair share of strong female characters... who shockingly of all, whilst yes, work as sexual motivation, actually instigate the sex themselves and it's seen not specifically as a connection, but as something that is simply pleasurable for both parties... WAAAAAAAH?! Strong, female leads, who not only instigate sex at their behest not the leads but also don't play it up as either something noble or a chaste act... who actually play it as just a thing people do? Crazy, that would never work, no one would want that in their video games.

All in all, good episode Bob, as for a choice in Links, yeah I wouldn't mind playing a female Link, I think it'd suit his fighting style a lot more and it literally would just have to be a model swap as the animations are already quite lithe and athletic.

Glad i wasn't the only one bothered by the appearance of Geralt among the generic burly white dudes.
Then again, Bob is a pretty big fan of nintendo when it comes to games, so you can't really blame him for a lack of knowledge about a game that never has and never will be on nintendo consoles.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

And aren't Nintendo funding Bayonetta 2? One of the more fun Female characters made in the past... i'll be generous and say 7 years. At least I can't remember a more interesting lead female character in that time (Commander Shepard doesn't count!)

 

[V4Viewtiful]

I thought Ganon was always the same guy, just constantly sealed inside of the sacred realm and thus that stalled the aging process.

Possibly but I suspect his body is sealed rather than his soul. If it's only his body than his soul could very well inhabit a female form.

 

[Orekoya]

Oh thank god. I was terrified we were going to have to sit through another week of Game Overthinker.

Bob, I love most of your stuff, but I just do not like Game Overthinker.

Agreed, his self-insert fan fiction series is grating and unwatchable. I almost skipped this episode too.

as far as "no one has ever taken a male lead and made them female before." I cite Starbuck and Boomer in the RDM version of Battlestar Galactica. both male characters in the original, re-imagined as women in the update.

Battlestar Galactica isn't exactly what I would call "mainstream". When Bob said "no one", what he meant was "no one with widespread appeal even outside of the nerd culture." The Battlestar Galactica case can make for a decent example, sure, but the series itself just doesn't have the mainstream appeal for anything they do to "make a statement" in the same way as something like Zelda.

If he wanted to say that he would have said it. Simply saying "no one" has more impact but is false and saying the rest removes the impact of the argument so he might as well not have said anything.

I would counter this entire conversation by pointing out he didn't say "no one has ever taken a male lead and made them female before." anywhere in the episode. So all this nitpicking is pointless.

 

[Lightknight]

Wait, Link actually being a woman would be a big difference? No, Link has always looked like a woman. Sorry. Unless there's actual nudity then it won't make any difference as far as I can tell.

Pretty sure that that is the point in the long run. If it doesn't make any difference for Link to be a girl, than why not do it?

Well, the counter point is also "then why do it"?

Can you argue that "then why not do it" vs "then why do it" is better if we both agree that Link has basically always looked like a girl anyways?

If we can't have both then Link being male has tradition behind it with a legion of male gamer fans who may or may not want to play as a female Link.

I think it'd be pretty neat to have a future where Link's incarnation can be either and we can choose between them as desired. But just to change the only stable/playable character's gender just to make a statement is both sexist itself and perhaps alienating to longstanding fans with a strong image of the character.

That being said, Link regularly goes through reincarnations. So perhaps it'd make more sense here than in other scenarios. But Bob pretending like it's an obligation to make a "statement" with a beloved franchise is silly. If Nintendo does it, it should be out of artistic integrity or market demand. Just because there is market demand for this to happen doesn't mean there's not even more demand for it not to happen. We see that all over the place too.

In most AAA developers, the male/female split is actually around 20%/80% female/male according to Nintendo's 2010 study combined with the gamer demographics of that day. 80% of female console gamers owned a wii as their primary console whereas men were far more evenly divided amongst the other consoles and the 20%/80% number I listed assumes men and women own consoles at similar rates which isn't necessarily the case (men likely buy more consoles than women which would make the disparity larger). But if 80% of women owned a wii then it's plausible that Nintendo's market is a LOT more female than the other consoles. So if any company is going to do this then it would probably be Nintendo. Not that I agree with drastically altering established IPs anymore than I agree with shitting on a Van Gogh in the attempt to make it more modern.

 

[VVThoughtBox]

Since when has horseback riding and archery been considered feminine?

Ignoring the actual discussion on gender politics for a second:

Horseback riding is very much a thing associated with young girls. The stereotypical little girl's wish is to own a pony. Based on my experiences with Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, the Girl Scouts have a much stronger emphasis on Horseback riding in their summer camps. I'm not sure why that is or where it started (And obviously the male Knight In Shining Armor also rides a horse) but the little girl with her pet pony is definitely a thing that exists as a stereotype, and to a greater degree than the little boy with a pony.

Archery also gets associated with women somewhat frequently. If I had to guess, it's because of wanting to keep the female characters away from physical fighting while still actually being part of the fight. Again: I'm not sure where it started, but if you look at the Chronicles of Narnia, the oldest brother (I don't remember names) is given a sword while the oldest sister is given a bow. Hunger Games is probably the biggest driving force behind the stereotype right now, but again: Having the female character holding the bow is a thing which is well entrenched in pop culture.

That's actually much more better and informative than what Bob said in the video. I nearly cringed when I heard him describe Link as an effeminate Bishonen. I played Skyward Sword and Link just doesn't fit the image of Bishonen. On the surface he may look like one, but if you look hard enough; you'll see that Link doesn't fit the mold. I think I'm more offended that Moviebob and people like him tried to apply their personal pet theory to something as subjective as video games in order to make themselves look smart. I also think that it's rather hypocritical of him and all of the other gaming journalists to criticize the industry for it's lack of diversity when sites like Kotaku or The Escapist has the same problem. I noticed that nearly every single internet reviewer on this site is a white bespectacled male in their twenties.

 

[josemlopes]

Oh thank god. I was terrified we were going to have to sit through another week of Game Overthinker.

Bob, I love most of your stuff, but I just do not like Game Overthinker.

Agreed, his self-insert fan fiction series is grating and unwatchable. I almost skipped this episode too.

as far as "no one has ever taken a male lead and made them female before." I cite Starbuck and Boomer in the RDM version of Battlestar Galactica. both male characters in the original, re-imagined as women in the update.

Battlestar Galactica isn't exactly what I would call "mainstream". When Bob said "no one", what he meant was "no one with widespread appeal even outside of the nerd culture." The Battlestar Galactica case can make for a decent example, sure, but the series itself just doesn't have the mainstream appeal for anything they do to "make a statement" in the same way as something like Zelda.

If he wanted to say that he would have said it. Simply saying "no one" has more impact but is false and saying the rest removes the impact of the argument so he might as well not have said anything.

I would counter this entire conversation by pointing out he didn't say "no one has ever taken a male lead and made them female before." anywhere in the episode. So all this nitpicking is pointless.

My mistake then, I apologize