The Big Picture: Link Be A Lady

[shadowmagus]

I really wish you had done this in like, two weeks when all this "representation in games" talk had died off because I would have been more inclined to pay attention. Otherwise, you're just band-wagoning and throwing pictures of AC:U around.

For the record, a female Link would be an interesting take and worth looking into.

Now I'm going to leave this site until this whole gender representation "discussion" goes away...because its nonsensical and dumb.

 

[Amaror]

Also, CDProjekt are Polish devs, not like the US-dominant game devs who make the majority of "burly white dude" game's protagonists. Cultural variation does make a difference, and since they're one of the few prominent Eastern European devs out there, I don't think they deserve as much crap as say Activision does for their constant lack of well-written female protagonists.

Also worthy note, the Witcher is adapted from a series of fantasy novels, so staying true to the source material is a concern there, that said, no reason other stories in that world couldn't be told from a womans perspective and it's not like it doesn't have it's fair share of strong female characters... who shockingly of all, whilst yes, work as sexual motivation, actually instigate the sex themselves and it's seen not specifically as a connection, but as something that is simply pleasurable for both parties... WAAAAAAAH?! Strong, female leads, who not only instigate sex at their behest not the leads but also don't play it up as either something noble or a chaste act... who actually play it as just a thing people do? Crazy, that would never work, no one would want that in their video games.

All in all, good episode Bob, as for a choice in Links, yeah I wouldn't mind playing a female Link, I think it'd suit his fighting style a lot more and it literally would just have to be a model swap as the animations are already quite lithe and athletic.

Glad i wasn't the only one bothered by the appearance of Geralt among the generic burly white dudes.
Then again, Bob is a pretty big fan of nintendo when it comes to games, so you can't really blame him for a lack of knowledge about a game that never has and never will be on nintendo consoles.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

And aren't Nintendo funding Bayonetta 2? One of the more fun Female characters made in the past... i'll be generous and say 7 years. At least I can't remember a more interesting lead female character in that time (Commander Shepard doesn't count!)

 

[V4Viewtiful]

I thought Ganon was always the same guy, just constantly sealed inside of the sacred realm and thus that stalled the aging process.

Possibly but I suspect his body is sealed rather than his soul. If it's only his body than his soul could very well inhabit a female form.

 

[Orekoya]

Oh thank god. I was terrified we were going to have to sit through another week of Game Overthinker.

Bob, I love most of your stuff, but I just do not like Game Overthinker.

Agreed, his self-insert fan fiction series is grating and unwatchable. I almost skipped this episode too.

as far as "no one has ever taken a male lead and made them female before." I cite Starbuck and Boomer in the RDM version of Battlestar Galactica. both male characters in the original, re-imagined as women in the update.

Battlestar Galactica isn't exactly what I would call "mainstream". When Bob said "no one", what he meant was "no one with widespread appeal even outside of the nerd culture." The Battlestar Galactica case can make for a decent example, sure, but the series itself just doesn't have the mainstream appeal for anything they do to "make a statement" in the same way as something like Zelda.

If he wanted to say that he would have said it. Simply saying "no one" has more impact but is false and saying the rest removes the impact of the argument so he might as well not have said anything.

I would counter this entire conversation by pointing out he didn't say "no one has ever taken a male lead and made them female before." anywhere in the episode. So all this nitpicking is pointless.

 

[Lightknight]

Wait, Link actually being a woman would be a big difference? No, Link has always looked like a woman. Sorry. Unless there's actual nudity then it won't make any difference as far as I can tell.

Pretty sure that that is the point in the long run. If it doesn't make any difference for Link to be a girl, than why not do it?

Well, the counter point is also "then why do it"?

Can you argue that "then why not do it" vs "then why do it" is better if we both agree that Link has basically always looked like a girl anyways?

If we can't have both then Link being male has tradition behind it with a legion of male gamer fans who may or may not want to play as a female Link.

I think it'd be pretty neat to have a future where Link's incarnation can be either and we can choose between them as desired. But just to change the only stable/playable character's gender just to make a statement is both sexist itself and perhaps alienating to longstanding fans with a strong image of the character.

That being said, Link regularly goes through reincarnations. So perhaps it'd make more sense here than in other scenarios. But Bob pretending like it's an obligation to make a "statement" with a beloved franchise is silly. If Nintendo does it, it should be out of artistic integrity or market demand. Just because there is market demand for this to happen doesn't mean there's not even more demand for it not to happen. We see that all over the place too.

In most AAA developers, the male/female split is actually around 20%/80% female/male according to Nintendo's 2010 study combined with the gamer demographics of that day. 80% of female console gamers owned a wii as their primary console whereas men were far more evenly divided amongst the other consoles and the 20%/80% number I listed assumes men and women own consoles at similar rates which isn't necessarily the case (men likely buy more consoles than women which would make the disparity larger). But if 80% of women owned a wii then it's plausible that Nintendo's market is a LOT more female than the other consoles. So if any company is going to do this then it would probably be Nintendo. Not that I agree with drastically altering established IPs anymore than I agree with shitting on a Van Gogh in the attempt to make it more modern.

 

[VVThoughtBox]

Since when has horseback riding and archery been considered feminine?

Ignoring the actual discussion on gender politics for a second:

Horseback riding is very much a thing associated with young girls. The stereotypical little girl's wish is to own a pony. Based on my experiences with Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, the Girl Scouts have a much stronger emphasis on Horseback riding in their summer camps. I'm not sure why that is or where it started (And obviously the male Knight In Shining Armor also rides a horse) but the little girl with her pet pony is definitely a thing that exists as a stereotype, and to a greater degree than the little boy with a pony.

Archery also gets associated with women somewhat frequently. If I had to guess, it's because of wanting to keep the female characters away from physical fighting while still actually being part of the fight. Again: I'm not sure where it started, but if you look at the Chronicles of Narnia, the oldest brother (I don't remember names) is given a sword while the oldest sister is given a bow. Hunger Games is probably the biggest driving force behind the stereotype right now, but again: Having the female character holding the bow is a thing which is well entrenched in pop culture.

That's actually much more better and informative than what Bob said in the video. I nearly cringed when I heard him describe Link as an effeminate Bishonen. I played Skyward Sword and Link just doesn't fit the image of Bishonen. On the surface he may look like one, but if you look hard enough; you'll see that Link doesn't fit the mold. I think I'm more offended that Moviebob and people like him tried to apply their personal pet theory to something as subjective as video games in order to make themselves look smart. I also think that it's rather hypocritical of him and all of the other gaming journalists to criticize the industry for it's lack of diversity when sites like Kotaku or The Escapist has the same problem. I noticed that nearly every single internet reviewer on this site is a white bespectacled male in their twenties.

 

[josemlopes]

Oh thank god. I was terrified we were going to have to sit through another week of Game Overthinker.

Bob, I love most of your stuff, but I just do not like Game Overthinker.

Agreed, his self-insert fan fiction series is grating and unwatchable. I almost skipped this episode too.

as far as "no one has ever taken a male lead and made them female before." I cite Starbuck and Boomer in the RDM version of Battlestar Galactica. both male characters in the original, re-imagined as women in the update.

Battlestar Galactica isn't exactly what I would call "mainstream". When Bob said "no one", what he meant was "no one with widespread appeal even outside of the nerd culture." The Battlestar Galactica case can make for a decent example, sure, but the series itself just doesn't have the mainstream appeal for anything they do to "make a statement" in the same way as something like Zelda.

If he wanted to say that he would have said it. Simply saying "no one" has more impact but is false and saying the rest removes the impact of the argument so he might as well not have said anything.

I would counter this entire conversation by pointing out he didn't say "no one has ever taken a male lead and made them female before." anywhere in the episode. So all this nitpicking is pointless.

My mistake then, I apologize

 

[MB202]

I must be the only one in the entire world who did not think Link looked like a girl... or at least, not any more effeminate then the previous incarnation of Link (or Hell, even Marth for that matter). By the way, Eiji Aonuma went back on his cryptic quote, saying he was just joking around. Guess he doesn't have the same sense of humor as Masahiro Sakurai does when it comes to deliberately messing around with fans heads. Also, it always seemed to me that Nintendo never actually listens to the press or what the fans want. Yeah, sure they give them what they want every now and then, but from my personal take of how Nintendo goes about business, at least until Miiverse was a thing, what the fans and gaming community talk about might as well not exist. Case and point: Nintendo of America didn't realise EarthBound for the Virtual Console until recently because, and I quote "the idea never occurred to [them] before now", despite the MASSIVELY huge following the game has and deliberate attempts from sites like Starmen.net to make themselves known to them. If Nintendo can ignore or be ignorant about something like THAT, then odds are, they just plain don't pay attention to anything outside of their own bubble at all. At least until recently.

Also, yeah, thank Heavenly GOD there's no more intrusive bullshit Game Overthinker stuff. What I don't like about hte Game Overthinker is that you have to dumb yourself down to "enjoy" the character bits, which goes against what the series is SUPPOSED to be about, i.e. overthinking stuff.

 

[kajinking]

If they did make Link a woman, would they make Zelda a man? I mean, in some of the games, there's a romantic tension between the two. Of course, they could simply omit that for the theoretical installment, or, more interestingly, keep it and have lesbian undertones for the game. Two birds with one stone. Would THAT make the game industry drop its jaw or what?

Personally I'd prefer it if Zelda was kept a woman if they did decide to make a female Link, if they just decided to genderswap everyone it would really take away some of the impact and make it seem more like a parody or gimmick rather than an experiment.

 

[Carnagath]

Was really tempted to turn this off when he claimed that the lack of representation in AC:U is proof of "the vile rampant misogyny in the gaming industry" (or something similar to that, sorry, I can't stomach to listen again for a precise quote), but decided to watch till the end. Wow. He actually seems to believe that if they made a female Link game, a brilliant new day of social justice would dawn, and all the sexually unsure people would have an awesome character to play as. Really? It's Link. It would make no difference at all. Link's barely a character in most of the games. There is barely anything that identifies him as a "him" as it is, not even his appearance.

It's amazing to me how delusional some people are. They seem to live in their own bubble-versions of the world, where some kind of war is raging for the genitals of characters in videogames, and for their representation as a percentage. It's just depressing. And of course, let's not forget the hysterical cry du jour about "vile rampant misogyny". I really should stop watching Moviebob's content, I'm afraid the next facepalm he causes to me will go straight through my face.

You know what'd be great? Amazing characters. In general. With well written arcs. Female characters? Sure, if you actually have a story to tell and are not going through a "designed-by-committee" process of percentile representation pandering, as if you're running for fucking President. I would kill to play as someone like Casca from Berserk for example. That would be awesome. Female Link? Not exactly the next best thing, is it... Sorry for being such a misogynist.

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

See, any character I see from Japan that seems slightly androgynous and I never start making assumptions one way or another. Hell, there are characters in anime voiced by women, with the figure of women, who end up just being men. That said, I think it would definitely be great of Link was a female this time around, especially given the number of women that play Zelda and have to watch as their gender is represented by a princess who's biggest specialty seems to be getting kidnapped, so I can see why a lot of people I knew were buzzing about this idea. But I knew that kind of thinking was a bit too far outside the box for Japan.

Rather than just making Link a straight-up female character, I don't understand, and have never understood, why Link's gender is not a choice for the player. Really, Link's gender makes zero difference because Link really has no personality. Link is a blank-slated Silent Protagonist so that players can better project themselves onto him, right? Well then it really shouldn't make a difference if he's a man or a woman in terms of the story and it really never has. Hell, you could even throw in small customizations, like skin tone or hair styles. I mean, they could still keep the 'classic' Link style for mash-up games and marketing, seems to work out well for Mass Effect.

Hopefully Nintendo will take the hint from all the buzz this generated and give it some thought.

 

[Baresark]

Except for the constant use of the term "misogynist/-y" in these videos, I too agree with Bob that it would be cool to see a little gender swapping. I just don't think it would as earth shattering as Bob thinks it would. The only actual difference between Zelda and Link for a long time as been the fact that Zelda wears a dress and Link does not.

 

[Gizen]

First, link has had the same design since the beginning. When someone mentions Link, they think of the rather androgynous green hooded male with a sword and shield. It's not somehow sexist to keep Link as a male, it just keeps him close to the design which everyone is most nostalgic with.

Nobody at any point said that keeping Link male is sexist. They said that making him female would be progressive. One does not equate the other, and nobody has indicated that there's anything wrong with male Link, only that people have wishful thinking for a female one.

Second, if there's one thing I hate more than not enough females in games, it's designers forcing these aspects into character design just to try and create the illusion that they're culturally or gender sensitive when in reality they just designed a token character.

If you're going to put a female in your game, then do it either with a new IP, or with a series that doesn't have fully established characters to represent the franchise (e.g. Assassin's Creed). Don't suddenly switch Link to a female and say "this is for the feminists".

This argument is flawed. It implies that any desire to take a previously male character and turn them female is 'for the feminists' instead of being 'because we feel like it' or 'because why not?' In fact, the latter reasoning is by far and away the most common one people are citing.

Here's how you make a good female character. You make a good character, and then you make it a woman. People act like male is the default, and any attempt to do a female is 'token representation' or pandering. When you make that claim, you are part of the problem, because male should never be default, default should be whatever the hell you want it to be. And when you're making something that you want everyone to enjoy, you should note that 'whatever the hell you want it to be' is not the same for everybody and keep that in mind. Ignoring the fact that not everyone wants the same thing is how male becomes the default option.

 

[LittleBlackDragon]

Male protagonist? Or female protagonist?
http://joystickjerks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/why-not-both.jpg
http://games-open.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/persona-3-portablegaming-addiction-101-gaming-news-from-the-gamers-dc8236rm.jpg

Oh yeah, I still need to finish this game.

Also, completely took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[GamemasterAnthony]

As cool as it would be I'd actually prefer that they just go all in and make Zelda the protagonist for a change. Who doesn't want to play a magic ninja elf who is wise-as-fuck?

Um...probably the fact that the last couple of times Zelda has been the protagonist...

...it was in the CD-i games. Enough said.

Still...part of me would have been cool with this new Zelda having Zel herself as the protagonist. We already know she's very proficient with the bow, and this trailer we saw didn't show the protag using a sword at all, but was attacking strictly with the bow. Definitely curious to see how she fights in Hyrule Warriors.

CAPTCHA: NOSE BLEED

-_-;; The Captcha apparently was looking at some Rule 34 stuff.

 

[Genocidicles]

I'd rather a game where you play as Zelda (a good one) than a game where they make Link a woman. It just seems weird swapping the genders like that.

 

[PuckFuppet]

I'll miss those guys.

OT: I don't think making Link female would that big of a deal but I get where people are coming from in terms of it being something they think would have serious impact. Honestly I'd much rather play through the game as Zelda in a OoT like scenario that pits you against some serious odds and gives plenty of room for character development.

 

[Piorn]

Remember what happened to Samus, guys?

And the way I see it, Link becoming female has exactly possible ways it can go.
They don't make a fuss about it, the game is the exact same except a few lines of dialogue maybe, and nothing else changes.
No speaking roles, no awkward Bioware romances shoved down our throats, no gameplay features or plot points dealing with "emotions", "eating", "rape" or "children", and all the other stuff that seems to be obligatory for """""female characters""""" (can't put enough quotation marks around that one really) these days.

Link being male adds or detracts nothing from the core game experience and so shouldn't Link being female, but the game makers will feel obliged to add something to mark that gender transition. That difference will make or break the entire project.

 

[Penitent]

To be sure I think that it would be a welcome change, but I think that it needs to come with a certain degree of additional work if it's going to be anything other than a gender flip "stunt."
In other words, the first time Link shows up as a lady, the game needs to be one of the few times within the series that Link is given more personality than the gawping "Let's save Hyrule because...reasons" protagonist that he usually is.

No, I'd disagree. Making a big deal about the character's gender and choosing then to define their personality is what Other M did, and we don't want a repeat of that.

Just make the game like Nintendo would if it were Link as usual, then flip the pronouns. Nothing about it calls for anything more than that.