The Big Picture: Maddening

[Sovereignty]

It took me a long time this past season to be okay with the fact a team hired him on. To come to terms with the league allowing him to return in the first place. Hell I was even peeved the justice system didn't slap him harder for it...

But I'd come to terms with it on the side of, "He went to jail for it. The legal system may not be perfect, but according to those who make the rules, he paid his dues."

And he seemed pretty genuine about trying to turn his shit around. But this is an outrage, and I'm not accepting of this!

Thank you for voicing how bad this is!

If Vick makes it on the cover, this will be the first Madden I don't purchase.

 

[Frostbite3789]

And in today's episode we learned Bob has never played an EA Sports NHL title.

 

[DaHero]

How about instead of a player we just slap whoever this Madden guy is on the cover? Then the only difference will be a number and we can save the EA fanboys some confusion.

 

[Laxman9292]

Maddening

MovieBob wonders why people keep buying Madden, and why anyone would want Michael Vick on the cover.

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I'm with you on this, but I do want to throw in an alternate reasoning:

It's okay to ask us to forgive Vick. It's okay to ask that we believe in redemption, and to open ourselves up to the possibility that we are also capable of all evil things if the world were to just catch us on a bad day. It's okay to point out the fact that he's "done his time" and is trying to get his act together. All of that is okay, and I agree.

However.

Forgiving someone, or believing they have redeemed themselves, does not mean forestalling the logical consequences of those actions. It is not wrong, unforgiving, or uncharitable to vehemently want to deny Vick this spot. He paid his legal debt to society, and that's fine. It means he cannot be punished again, but refusing to honor something is not the same as punishment.

If someone robs me and gunpoint, goes to jail, gets out, and then comes to see me for forgiveness, I might choose to use that opportunity to forgive them. I'd let them know that I didn't like what they did, and I'd stop wishing horrible things to happen to them. I'd let them know I really do hope they go on to make better choices. But forgiving them doesn't mean I have to like them, be "buddies," or ever even speak to them ever again. I certainly don't have to make them best man at my wedding, or keep a picture of them on my desk.

Except if the criterion for being on the Madden cover is having a kick ass season. Which Vick undeniably had. Then, if you refuse to keep him in the running for something he clearly qualified for then that is wrong. In your scenario it would be like if your mugger had a phenomenal month at his job after getting out of prison and being rehabilitated, going and denying his eligibility for employee of the month. That is almost exactly like Vick: a man who committed a crime and served his time, then being denied what is essentially an employee of the year honor despite his excellent qualifications for said honor, because of a crime that he was punished for which has no connection to his job.

 

[Laxman9292]

Wait... I just picked this line up on a second viewing.

Bob: "We don't even know if there's going to be an NFL season in 2012..."

Why wouldn't there be? Bob, are you a believer in the 2012 apocalypse, or did something big go down in the NFL that I completely missed?

The NFL lockout? If you aren't a stateside Escapist then that's understandable. But if you are, I'm sorry, but have you been living under a rock?

 

[snyderman8910]

Michael Vick tortured and killed animals for sport. Movie Bob owns a hunting and fishing license. There's a difference between eating meat and going out and killing animals for fun. I'm not saying hunting is the worst thing ever, I just don't get out how you can condemn dog-fighting but support hunting. They're both unsavory in my book.

There's a difference between merely killing animals and torturing them. Conscientious hunters make a serious effort to kill their prey in one shot; merely wounding an animal and letting it get away is considered one of the biggest fuck-ups you can possibly make. As for fishing... well, there are mixed opinions. There's evidence that their neurobiology is so different from that of mammals that they don't even feel pain per se; their minds just register that something bad is happening and that they should try to get away.

You can see why this is so hotly contested. More important, probably, is what Vick's willingness to do what he did says about his neurobiology, if you catch my drift. I don't know all the technical psychological terms, but in layman's terms it's generally agreed that he'd have to be pretty fucked in the head.

So if Michael Vick was conscientious and humane and didn't torture dogs in addition to running a dog-fighting ring, and treated injured dogs like they treat horses that break their legs or something, his actions would be defensible? I get what you're saying but I still think that with hunting you have people who are gaining fulfillment/enjoyment from the death of an animal.

As for the psychology of Michael Vick, I think it's important to recognize that his actions were generally seen as acceptable by his friends, and that it seems like dog-fighting is less reprehensible in segments of the African American population than it is in mainstream America. A perfectly healthy human brain can do some pretty fucked up things if they're told often enough that it's ok, so I don't know that you can really conclude anything about Michael Vick's mental health given what we know (although obviously his actions were wrong).

 

[DanDeFool]

Wait... I just picked this line up on a second viewing.

Bob: "We don't even know if there's going to be an NFL season in 2012..."

Why wouldn't there be? Bob, are you a believer in the 2012 apocalypse, or did something big go down in the NFL that I completely missed?

The NFL lockout? If you aren't a stateside Escapist then that's understandable. But if you are, I'm sorry, but have you been living under a rock?

It's called Graduate School. Besides, never been a big NFL fan anyway.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Bull. Fucking. Shit.

Yes, animal cruelty is bad. I'm a vegan. But is it unforgiveable and inexcuseable? Is animal abuse actually the cardinal sin? It was called an "unspeakable act", for God's sake! Jesus Christ, Bob. How can you possibly justify killing and eating animals when just abusing them is bad? I'm a very quiet vegan. I've never tried to convert anyone. But this is absolute hypocrisy. Animals in a slaughterhouse are treated very, very badly, probably worse than most dogs in fighting rings. And yet someone who is actively trying to redeem himself, who has apologized for what he has done in what appears to be a sincere way, is totally beyond redemption.

This is some incrediable hypocrisy here, dude. Yes, what he did was wrong. Yes, he was a douchebag about it. But NO, IT IS NOT FUCKING UNFORGIVEABLE. HE'S NOT A RAPIST. HE'S NOT A SERIAL MURDERED. HE KILLED HELPLESS, INNOCENT ANIMALS. BUT THIS IS NOT THE WORST THING IN THE UNIVERSE. I'm legitimately angry at this video. When I'm more coherent, I'll probably type up a proper thing here and e-mail it to Bob.

So it's only about the animals? The intentions don't seperate the two things? Perhaps it's questionable to happily ignore what happens before meat lands on our plates, but it's not hypocritical to be offended when pleasure is taken in cruelty.

That's really the key to the moral-indignation here... A man got his jollies watching mentally abused dogs rip eachother apart. The mind-set matters, alot...

 

[lokiduck]

Will maybe one of the reasons people are voting for him is because of the Madden Curse. I mean seriously with all the injuries that occur because of being on the cover, would you really vote for a player you actually like?

Maybe he's so hi in numbers is because people want to give him the curse.

Course the media is stupid. The comedians never leave a wrongdoer alone, but most of the people forget it. I mean look at past criminals who were left alone after a point and even considered saints.

 

[Beliyal]

Bull. Fucking. Shit.

Yes, animal cruelty is bad. I'm a vegan. But is it unforgiveable and inexcuseable? Is animal abuse actually the cardinal sin? It was called an "unspeakable act", for God's sake! Jesus Christ, Bob. How can you possibly justify killing and eating animals when just abusing them is bad? I'm a very quiet vegan. I've never tried to convert anyone. But this is absolute hypocrisy. Animals in a slaughterhouse are treated very, very badly, probably worse than most dogs in fighting rings. And yet someone who is actively trying to redeem himself, who has apologized for what he has done in what appears to be a sincere way, is totally beyond redemption.

This is some incrediable hypocrisy here, dude. Yes, what he did was wrong. Yes, he was a douchebag about it. But NO, IT IS NOT FUCKING UNFORGIVEABLE. HE'S NOT A RAPIST. HE'S NOT A SERIAL MURDERED. HE KILLED HELPLESS, INNOCENT ANIMALS. BUT THIS IS NOT THE WORST THING IN THE UNIVERSE. I'm legitimately angry at this video. When I'm more coherent, I'll probably type up a proper thing here and e-mail it to Bob.

There is a difference between killing animals for food or just plainly killing them for nothing. Slaughterhouses are bad, but in the end, those animals are not killed in vain; they will feed people, and food is essential for survival (yes, they could eat other food, but that's beside the point right now and people will always eat meat, the only thing that will change is our treatment of the said meat (and just a note; I'm a vegetarian)). Killing animals for your own amusement is far far worse because those animals die for nothing and are tortured for nothing. I mean, seriously, there are a million ways to have fun in our time and age, and they have to get their kicks from watching helpless animals kill each other for money? Yes, it can be forgiven, but I would never look at that person the same way again. Much like I wouldn't look a child rapist the same way, no matter how many years he served in prison or how sorry he was.

And yes, there are worse things, but that's not the excuse. It's like classifying any crime that isn't the Holocaust as "It's not the worse thing that can happen, remember the Holocaust?". A rapist? Well, at least he's not a child rapist, so that's fine. A murderer? Well, at least he didn't set fire to a child hospital, so that's fine. He forced dogs to fight and die for the lulz? Well, at least he's not a serial killer. We could find the "at least he's not " for any crime in existence, but that is not the reason not to condemn someone for committing it. I understand that dog fighting is not really the worse thing in the universe, but it is still a crime and it is still awful and it still needs to be punished. He did serve the time in prison, he apologized, and he deserves a second chance (which he has, as far as I understand), but that doesn't mean that he's now completely clean and we should just get over it. If we are striving to eradicate shit like dog fights from our society, the society needs to know the weight of the crime. Saying "it's only dogs fighting" makes it look like it's generally okay, but just slightly naughty. But it's worse than that; it's barbaric, disgusting and completely below human intelligence and our evolution as species that understand the concepts of morality and ethics.

I think Bob was a bit too harsh on this though (given the fact that I am completely oblivious to sports or people connected to sports, so I don't really have an attachment to something with a bad name), and I believe his harshness will go down with time, but I completely understand and respect his opinion. Hell, if someone from media that I actually follow was involved in something like this, I would probably be a hundred times more pissed.

 

[mad825]

I really don't see the point of this whining, dogs have always been "tortured" and "killed" for human purposes ever since they co-operated with us. Dogs for decades have been used for sledging, hunting and entertainment.

Although I do not agree with the reason why he did it but the death of the dogs have no major importance and will not have any major impact on anything. He got punished and he got shamed, anything more would be vigilantism. 'Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster.'

 

[super_mumbles]

I know this may seem like I've completely missed the point but to me it just looks like EA is keeping this guy in the running because of exactly what's happening here.

People are talking about this Vick guy and also Madden, due to him being on the cover. Just looks like a really low form of marketing.


It seems to me to be the exact same situation as Medal of Honour and the Opposing forces controversy.

(Although I do have to question whether EA would keep this guy on the cover knowing what sort of reputation he could have, for the sake of some extra money)

 

[camazotz]

I'm with Bob on this, good show....and something I wouldn't have known about (I don't know the first thing about football) if Bob hadn't brought it to my attention.

 

[Frostbite3789]

(I'm not sure what happened after the Saints got on the cover for them)

Losing to the Seahawks in the playoffs is pretty harsh. I'd figure not make it all and save myself the embarrassment of losing to a team that doesn't even belong there.

 

[camazotz]

I really don't see the point of this whining, dogs have always been "tortured" and "killed" for human purposes ever since they co-operated with us. Dogs for decades have been used for sledging, hunting and entertainment.

Although I do not agree with the reason why he did it but the death of the dogs have no major importance and will not have any major impact on anything. He got punished and he got shamed, anything more would be vigilantism. 'Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster.'

That's awful, awful logic. You could use the same line of reasoning that genocide is okay because its been done before.

 

[mad825]

I really don't see the point of this whining, dogs have always been "tortured" and "killed" for human purposes ever since they co-operated with us. Dogs for decades have been used for sledging, hunting and entertainment.

Although I do not agree with the reason why he did it but the death of the dogs have no major importance and will not have any major impact on anything. He got punished and he got shamed, anything more would be vigilantism. 'Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster.'

That's awful, awful logic. You could use the same line of reasoning that genocide is okay because its been done before.

No, but it is within our nature.

The logic is that they are used to serve us

 

[lokiduck]

Bull. Fucking. Shit.

Yes, animal cruelty is bad. I'm a vegan. But is it unforgiveable and inexcuseable? Is animal abuse actually the cardinal sin? It was called an "unspeakable act", for God's sake! Jesus Christ, Bob. How can you possibly justify killing and eating animals when just abusing them is bad? I'm a very quiet vegan. I've never tried to convert anyone. But this is absolute hypocrisy. Animals in a slaughterhouse are treated very, very badly, probably worse than most dogs in fighting rings. And yet someone who is actively trying to redeem himself, who has apologized for what he has done in what appears to be a sincere way, is totally beyond redemption.

This is some incrediable hypocrisy here, dude. Yes, what he did was wrong. Yes, he was a douchebag about it. But NO, IT IS NOT FUCKING UNFORGIVEABLE. HE'S NOT A RAPIST. HE'S NOT A SERIAL MURDERED. HE KILLED HELPLESS, INNOCENT ANIMALS. BUT THIS IS NOT THE WORST THING IN THE UNIVERSE. I'm legitimately angry at this video. When I'm more coherent, I'll probably type up a proper thing here and e-mail it to Bob.

Actually I consider it to be a difference between eating meat and torturing animals, and that is because you are using what you killed. Hunting to me is okay when you actually use as much of the catch as possible. Animal fighting of any kind, is cruel and unusual because it will probably live and be tortured for long with no real benefit except for mindless entertainment. One can even arguing that animal testing has some arguement when they are being tested for things that will actually be needed and can help the world, not make up or recreational purposes.

And As a meat eater, I always make sure to eat animal products that come from places where the animals are treated more fairly.

In the end yeah the fact that we kill them is cruel, but other animals are eating them too and technically you are killing and hurting a plant when you eat or cut off limbs of them so In my book, make it painless, make it quick, and treat them as far as you can. Animal fighting isn't any of those things.

 

[Hoagster51]

I buy madden every year and have voted against Vick in every round of this vote so far. what a douche

 

[Nurb]

You can't implicate Vick alone in wrong-doing, unless you understand and implicate the culture he comes from that demands he continue to act like a poverty stricken thug where dogfighting is an accepted form of entertainment even though he has the money and opportunity to behave like any reasonable member of society, because if he didn't, he would appear to be a an "uncle tom" or a "race betrayer".

Young black men, and especially black men who are fortunate to be well-off are one of the only races that are forced, by their own race even, to be torn between being a well mannered, well dressed, well adjusted person like anyone else and the idea that black men need to be tough guys that act like the worst off individuals in the poorest areas simply because of their color.

Kids in a lot of schools say anyone who does well in classes and doesn't adhere to a particular color's popular culture stereotypes is "acting white", which is what angry impoverished young men do to rich athletes and especially successfull black career men; making them feel guilty for their success and saying they're betraying their race if they don't look and act/talk like some street thug, which is what Vick almost certainly fell to. Any non-white guy who's dated a white woman probably knows what I'm talking about (non-white women dating white men are treated worse but thats another argument)

I'm not making excuses for Vick at all, he deserves to be omitted from any honorable mention for what he did, but the root cause of the problem in most of these cases is how certain groups or cultures can pressure people in the most cruel of ways, and the root cause of that is the high percentage living in poverty which has causes of its own.

I'm not the only one who realizes this either, but singling out Vick alone for torturing animals like it's a small isolated problem is short-sighted.