The Big Picture: Maddening


New member
Aug 4, 2010
Wow. Did I ever mention I LOVE a good rant? Probably on my top 10 list somewhere.

Amazingly good points. I enjoy how you refute the possible arguments that people could make. I rarely see people do this anymore. Most just give their opinion and leave it at that.


New member
Aug 4, 2010
Nurb said:
You can't implicate Vick alone in wrong-doing, unless you understand and implicate the culture he comes from that demands he continue to act like a poverty stricken thug where dogfighting is an accepted form of entertainment even though he has the money and opportunity to behave like any reasonable member of society, because if he didn't, he would appear to be a an "uncle tom" or a "race betrayer".

Young black men, and especially black men who are fortunate to be well-off are one of the only races that are forced, by their own race even, to be torn between, being a well mannered, well dressed, well adjusted person like anyone else and the idea that black men need to be tough guys that act like the worst off individuals in the poorest areas simply because of their color.

Kids in a lot of schools say anyone who does well in classes and doesn't adhere to a particular color's popular culture stereotypes is "acting white", which is what angry impoverished young men do to rich athletes and especially successfull black career men; making them feel guilty for their success and saying they're betraying their race if they don't look and act/talk like some street thug, which is what Vick almost certainly fell to. Any non-white guy who's dated a white woman probably knows what I'm talking about (non-white women dating white men are treated worse but thats another argument)

I'm not making excuses for Vick at all, he deserves to be omitted from any honorable mention for what he did, but the root cause of the problem in most of these cases is how certain groups or cultures can pressure people in the most cruel of ways, and the root cause of that is the high percentage living in poverty which has causes of its own.

I'm not the only one who realizes this either, but singling out Vick alone for torturing animals like it's a small isolated problem is short-sighted.
You made a very good argument. You're entirely right, but in Bob's case I believe it's because he has to tie this in with "videogame"-ish culture. He can't just go off on a rant about everyone that was involved in the dog fights because he needs to make a focused argument. It wouldn't have hurt him to mention it though.


Senior Member
May 17, 2009
Velocirapture07 said:
C_Topher said:
Velocirapture07 said:
Bob I almost always disagree with you, and this time is no difference. Vick fucked up and did some horrible shit. He served time in prison and did not kill human beings. Also, on the sliding scale of humanity, I'd rate a lot of athletes higher than you. You put together a bunch of random pictures and talk over them with your opinion.

Whoopdy fucking do.

I'm pretty sure there's been other ex-criminals on the front of madden games. They also probably committed crimes against human beings which will always be more damning than anything done to animals. I like animals, but in this case you're completely wrong. I truly feel like he's trying to come back from the mistakes he made. Hell, maybe that is impossible, but at least he's trying.

I'm sure you've never done anything wrong though Bob, nothing you've ever regretted. You're just another freaking mouth piece on the internet no different than any other except for the fact that you get paid to spout to other people your opinion on things. Why don't you pay attention to yourself and your own shortcomings instead of focusing on someone who made animals fight each other. I also like how no one gives a fuck if you have a snake fight or something like that, but when it's fluffy cute shit everyone flips. He wasn't stuffing poodles and lolcats into arenas and torturing them (these were dogs trained and conditioned to be violent ANIMALS)

All in all, you're dead wrong. Animals will never be on the same level as humans, no matter how cuddly wuddly they are (and believe me I do love animals-I own a cat). Vick didn't murder a human child, he didn't violently rape anyone, he didn't assualt a grandmother, he didn't slaughter babies, etc. Get your priorities straight. It's time to move the fuck on and get over it. This series pisses me off to no end as well. How the hell do you actually get paid to spew your opinion and spout it off like fact?!
Judging by your own admission that you usually watch Bob's segments, I can only guess this is meant to be seen as an obvious troll. Really, if you have so much hate for Bob, why watch him? Also, there are a lot of people that get paid to give their opinions; opinion columnist for most newspapers, critics of all kinds, and let's not forget the consultants (financial, business, expert witnesses...) and so on.

Also, if think forcing animals to fight to the death for our amusement is ACCEPTABLE, then you, my good sir, are in need of professional psychiatric help. Do you have any idea how dogfighting works? The dogs are trained to kill by being beaten, starved, and given other animals to kill, usually stolen pets referred to as bait animals. So yes, Vick was "stuffing poodles and lolcats into arenas and torturing them". Are you saying it would be fine if someone took YOUR cat and tossed it between two starved and vicious dogs? I'll give you a hint: Say "no" and you're a hypocrite, say "yes" and you're as sick a fuck as Vick.

Another thing, as I mentioned in an earlier post, torturing and killing animals is a good predictor of violence against humans. It's usually a stepping stone for much worse, often carriers as serial killers (see Jeffrey Dalmer and Denis Raider [BTK]). It's not that it was "just animals", it's that it was a red flag for a psychopath.

And as for the shit about animals not being on the same level as humans, wasn't the same thing said about women, blacks, Jews, Native Americans, and various other groups throughout history? Newsflash, PEOPLE ARE ANIMALS TOO! We're not on a higher level than any other animals. Even if you chose to ignore that, Vick chose to commit horrendous acts upon something that was helpless and dependant on him for its survival, not unlike a human infant. He's a monster that was caught before he could do more damage, and you're just as bad for defending him.
I should have written "Bob, when I do watch your segments I almost always disagree with you" or "when I actually comment on, or get through one of your segments I almost always disagree." Trolling is a waste of time and is not what I'm doing.

Also i never stated that dogfighting was acceptable. In fact it is pretty horrible and indefensible. That's why he went to jail and was punished for his crime. However, I vehemently disagree with your assertion that animals are on the same level as humans. I don't think the jews, blacks, or native americans were dependent on anyone for their survival, mostly because they have large brains and complex emotions that animals lack.

Humans are on a whole different plane, and to act as if they're not is just ridiculous.

I'm glad he was caught and that he's turned his life around. Perhaps he should not be on the cover of the game, perhaps he should. All I'm saying is that I find it interesting that people are so obsessed with this particular crime and criminal enough to ignore the other people in the nfl who have committed crimes against human beings.
In order of increasing importance:
1) Current research have conclusively shown that a large number of non-human animals are capable of complex emotions, reasoning abilities, and even language skills that where considered to be uniquely human. No, we are not on a different plan. We're just on a slightly different evolutionary branch.

2) My point about about blacks, Jews, Native Americans and women was about how humans can see themselves as being superior to other humans and can therefore justify horrific actions against them. The "dependant for survival" point was to show that, at least in infancy, humans are not that different from other animals, especially domesticated ones. Vick was taking advantage of something which he had complete control over.

3) No one is ignoring other NFL individuals who have committed crimes against humans. There are literally enough to make a team with, and I don't think any of them will make the cover of Madden. The thing with Vick isn't just his crime, but what it's a sign of. In addition to animal cruelty, Vick has a history of drug use, violence, and numerous other criminal offences. The fact that he hasn't killed a human yet is surprising. You say he's turned his life around, but I don't think he'll keep on track for much longer. It's not what he's done, it's what he'll do next. And given where this pattern of behaviour can lead to, it doesn't look good. It'll be OJ Simpson all over again. That's why we're focused on this one criminal.


New member
Dec 9, 2009
There may be a Madden curse, but I wouldn't bet on it because the curse could backfire on those trying to put it on someone

I personally think he shouldn't be on the cover because there are plenty of BETTER players than Vick. It's sad that it's Rogers and Hillis fighting in the semi-finals rather than the finals, because BOTH had WAY betters seasons than Vick

Sure, you could argue that Hillis faltered off near the end of the season, but the entire Cleveland Browns team did, and they changed game plans. The man was a monster this season and a big name, as well as gave Browns fans something fun to watch. Has anyone SEEN Peyton run? He's like a monster truck on legs, it was just amazing to watch him run.

On the other hand, you have Aaron Rogers, MVP of the Superbowl, and able to put the Farve talk behind him to take the Packers and win the Super Bowl. He had a strong season, and overcame some concussions to win games.

BOTH those guys deserve the cover more than Vick, who split playing time, going into the season as not even a starter. He didn't win the super bowl while people talked about how he'll never be as good as Farve. He didn't come from nowhere to be seen literally bashing people to gain just that extra yard. You want to see footage of what football is about? Look up the Browns-Panthers game from '10 and see the TD run from a few yards out where he ran over a guy to get into the end zone. Don't you think THAT is who deserves to be on the cover of Madden, rather than a guy who was good before and had a good season for the half of it he played?

Dice Warwick

New member
Nov 29, 2010
I don't watch sports, so I could care less if he get's to play or not. As for the Madden Games, when I worked at a EB, Madden was the biggest joke; we would have so many used maddens in the back hanging above the door, we always keeped an eye out in case it decided to all come crashing down on one of us. Nobody buys last years Madden, so a store ends up with 5-7 different years of the game just collecting dust. In my eyes, Madden is among the worst games in the past 10 years, not because it is a bad game, but the fact that we have consistently had over 10 versions of the game with nothing new to offer to make people care about any one version. Now I don't play sports games, but I can at least see how simple the marketing of madden is, it gose like this "You buy the new Madden, because it is the new Madden, or your friends will think your lame."

Now if the Madden people dicided to work one the game for 5 years, and try to make the best American Football game seen in years, and one that will not be seen in years to come. Then I will give them credit, yet that is not going to happen.


New member
Oct 4, 2010

Before I begin, I must say two things as a disclaimer:

1. I am a longtime fan of your work and generally agree with you on most points.
2. Michael Vick is an asshole.

Now, I must say that in this particular instance, I fervently disagree with your position and feel that you have cast aside your typical objectivity. Michael Vick is not deserving of being punished further for the crime he committed for one simple fact; he has already been punished by the system that WE have put into place. Despite him being or having been a monstrosity at some point in his life, he has abided by the rules of our society and we do not have the right to legally brand him an outcast for the rest of his days without turning ourselves into hypocrites (despite the extremely objectionable morality of the choices he made). The law also cannot afford to reinterpret itself at every turn lest we lose the ability to be fair in our application (I do not see how, "Michael Vick the lifesaving surgeon" is less or more guilty than "Michael Vick the guy who throws a ball around" to quote your example). In the end, our professions, ethnicity, gender, and background do not matter. We are all just human.

And speaking from experience, you can turn your life around... though I sincerely doubt that Mr. Vick is doing anything of the sort.

All that being said, everyone please go to EA's website and vote for anyone BUT Michael Vick. He sure as hell has the right to be on the poll, but I'll be damned if I vote for him.


Jan 23, 2008
boeingguy787 said:
Seriously, guys? NOBODY believes in second chances? I thought that the justice system was designed to rehabilitate people, and Vick seems to be rehabilitated (unlike countless others who have not changed their ways).
Not in shit like this. Ever.

This isn't a guy who was struggling to make a living.He had more money back then than either of us will probably ever seen in our entire lives.

This isn't a guy who was extremely unbalanced or deeply emotionally scarred. He was living like a fucking king.

He just wanted more cash he didn't even need, and he saw it as appropriate to torture and kill other lives for it. There was no physical or psychological "need" in all of this. There was only "want". As far as I'm concerned he can die in a chemical fire while being drowned and electrocuted at the same time.

Turkey Braveheart

New member
Apr 15, 2010
Dear Moviebob,
Slow, sincere clap to everything you said.

On a related note, there is a criminal athlete I'd make an exception for: Plaxico Burress. He was the only one who got hurt and he's serving more time than Vick. As soon as he's out, he should get his jersey back. He's payed enough for being an idiot.


New member
Jan 10, 2010
Actually, maybe its just more the Madden games, but usually this kind of franchise ISNT a giant rip off. I usually get the FIFA game series but then again theres a lot more you can do with soccer than you can with football. Its just USUALLY just a roaster update, theres new tech, team styles, graphics, mechanics etc.
The only way around this as far as I can see, is to charge cheaper with the risk of hurting sales (Costing more to produce than revenue to sell each copy) or put it on ONE disk and just bringing it in somewhere (If you could do it by download fine) but that would probably cost WAY more than 60 dollars, or even 120 dollars, beause as far as I know that kind of programmable software and re-doing old software isnt cheap.
So ultimately, I think its the best they can do on a console game and maybe Madden IS just a cheap roaster cash-in but I've played FIFA 10 and 11 and I can say that 11 is definately an upgrade from 10, maybe that will change with FIFA 12. Althought I wont buy FIFA 13 regardless BECAUSE I HATE THE NUMBER 13! Yes I'm supersitutious on 13, and before you say anything it will sve me 60 dollars.


New member
Apr 17, 2009
I thoroughly agree! Violence in video games is completely different no one gets hurt and those psychos who do bad things would probably have done those bad things with or without video game influence! I will be very disappointed with EA if they allow a scumbag like that to be place on the cover of anything! Not that EA has been holding my interest at all lately but still.

Also I do not understand the Sports Video game industry! It drives me crazy! And I agree that those silly Madden games are merely DLC and it's outrageous that people actually buy them! I may be a little biased because I don't like sports in general (just isn't my thing), but seriously buy one good sport game you like, and maybe upgrade every few years like all the other genres out there!

*sigh* sorry bob, I rant :p thanks for another good episode!

Uber Waddles

New member
May 13, 2010
He payed his legal debt to society, granted if it was you or me we'd still be in jail, take that as you will.

But paying your legal debt to society does not expunge you. He will carry that record with him his entire life.



He did his time in jail, whihc means in the eyes of the law, hes done his time. Thats it. It doesnt mean he should be regarded as a hero, and he certainly shouldnt be. If it is ok for employeers to look down on people with convictions, then it should be alright to bar him from the contest.



Night Angel
Jan 8, 2009
Right on Bob!.. Though I disagree about capitalism being good... in fact if profits were the motive then... well... you see where I'm going with this.


New member
Feb 19, 2010
NickCooley said:
PunkRex said:
NickCooley said:
From the Free Dictionary

mur·der (mûrdr)
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Just something that niggled at me a little bit during the video. Now that's out of the way...

Yes what the guy did was pretty bastardish but he HAS done his time, I'm not gonna be inviting him around for tea any time soon but I'm not calling for his head either. Yet another reason to be thankful most of the western world has a rational justice system instead of going on the whims of the angry mob that want him lynched. Animal Cruelty, while deplorable is pretty low down on my crimes to be riled up over list with the usual suspects being at the top (genocide, murder, rape, paedophilia etc)

Also, while I respect others right to their opinions I can only hope the kind of people that feel murdering a fellow human being over an animal never get into any position of real power, thats an unbalanced and irrational mind right there.
Look guy, I understand were your coming from and I cant really speak for other animal lovers like myself but its not about valueing animals over people, its about having humanity to begin with. If you want to get technical, then sure, murder may not be the word but such deplorable acts dont deserve any sort of defense. I believe that humans are above animals but that means we have a responsibility to act human towards them, not to kill unless necessary and to NEVER cause unessary pain. Giving someone who robbed a bank a second chance makes sense as were unsure why he did it but if he shoots someone while doing it then it doesnt matter, screw him.
Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to defend the guy, what he did was sickening yes, but he's served his punishment and I don't think the calls for his head (metaphorically speaking) are deserved. Especially when people are committing worse crimes and there's not so much as a peep from people. As for the animal/murder thing, that was more the Grammar Nazi in me more than anything else.

And while I'm here.

John Funk said:
As someone who has played both rugby and futbol americano, I can say with certainty that football is waaaaaaaaay rougher than rugby is. Rugby tackles are like, "grab your jersey and pull you down." Football tackles are "250-lb slab of muscle slamming into your spine at full speed."

Here's a tip: Football players wear those pads because they need them, and that makes the sport rougher.

The more you know! (Twinkle)
Grab your Jeresy and pull you down? Tell that to the All Blacks. Hell, tell that to any professional Rugby players =P
The statement "worse crimes" however is subjective. Look I dont value animals over people but the act of taking advantage of anything is deplorable. I love aniamls and I hate those who inflict pain on anything. It may not mean alot to some but to people like me its as bad as taking advantage of children or hurting a old person. Im sorry if this upsets anyone but please understand that its not that I like peodophiles more then you its just I hate animal killers as much as peodophiles. Yes I eat meat but thats natural in my oppinion, where as causing pain to living things for entertainment is anything but.

Also I agree that American Football can do more but that armour counts for alot, most American Football players will leave the pitch in a decent state with most injuries being internal (and yes I realise this CAN be FAR more dangerous but they have docters on staff to identify this stuff) but Rugby players have to take these hits (again not as many maybe) as well as the external pain of broken noses, bloodied eyes and dislocated joints. If given the option between being tackled by either in the apropriate gear i'd take the American Footballer as even though I may be knocked unconscious i'll at least wake up with my extremities in the right places.

Whoever decided to allow studs in Rugby is one sick mofo!


New member
Aug 16, 2008


New member
Apr 1, 2009
Onyxious said:
AvauntVanguard said:
Onyxious said:
If you're saying that, you're a downright moron.
Now, was that really necessary?

I simply don't see non-human animals as equals. Is this really such an offensive concept?

I suppose it wasn't, but it's true.

I understand what you're saying, but I was just trying to have an interesting argument.
By resorting to direct insults? Bad form, friendo! Bad form!