The Big Picture: Maddening

Shirokurou

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Another oblivious international fan.

Seriously? I guess Bob was low on topics this week.

I mean sure, he was wrong. But "Animal Torture for fun" and "Dog-fights for profit" are two different things in my book. It's like the difference between a guy who beats up people for fun and a thief. He served his time for his crime, so let's not be douches, who discriminate people on the fact that they were in prison, OK.

And really though, this guy getting a cover of a madden game? Don't care.

Also, Bob I know of countries where literal cock-fights are legal, snake-fights are legal.. i guess all those people are OK, cause it's not puppies or we dealing with countries of lowest-grade scum?
 

WaderiAAA

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Aug 11, 2009
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Altaria87 said:
JoJoDeathunter said:
Sorry Bob, but I don't agree with a lot of this, there are much worse crimes this man could have done; murder, rape, child abuse etc than simply making dogs fight each other. Sure, it's cruel alright and I wouldn't do it personally, but just as bad things go on in nature every day. Also I didn't like in your video how you dismissed a lot of the oppositions potential arguments without even explaining why you did so. I happen to believe that morals don't apply in the same way to animals as they do to humans, I don't see an issue here.

Perhaps it's time to forgive and forget, he's done his time and if he says he's sorry, then I'll accept that. Anyway, just being on the front of what quite frankly is an unimportant video game cover for just one year is hardly worth being worked up about.
I agree with this. So much.
If you REALLY think that dog abuse is one of the worst crimes a human can commit, you have seriously lost a lot of respect form this rando guy on the Internet. Dogs are NOT paragons of innocence, I have lived my entire lfie with a crushing fear of dogs due to being attacked by one as a child. Dogs have KILLED PEOPLE. And I really hate it when people say it is somehow unforgivable to say 'it's just a dog'.
Yes, dog abuse isn't somehting I would condone - I disagree with dogfighting simply because it increases the amount of truly dangerous dogs in society. But it is Nowhere. Friggin'. Near the worst thing a human can do.
Are you guys serious? We are talking about torture here. Sure the same morals don't imply with humans and animals in many ways, like how it is alright to imprisson an animal and use a chain on it and how you might shoot an animal to put it out of its misary when it is hurt, but this is torture we are talking about. For any creature that feels pain, you should make it suffer as little as possible. Even if you have a good reason to kill an animal, you should still try to do it in the most quick and swift way possible. Torturing animals for entertainment might not be quite as bad as doing the same to humans would be, but it is still dispicable.
 

arikata

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jakefongloo said:
One of the perks of believing in an afterlife is that murder is meh. Child abuse can make for some very strong people and rape.....so? As long as no STD's were spread and no pregnancy happened rape is almost harmless. Weak people crush under the psychological trauma strong move on.

As for torture, torture is possibly the worst thing you can do to anything. It changes their very core. It forces friends to betray each other, sell out family, and will break any mind. Any person capable of torturing anything can not be rehibilitated. It's a dominate high more addictive than heroin. You love the feeling of having something's life in your hand. Once you cross the line there is no way back, when you see creatures you don't see them, you see victims. Vick is going to lose it one day mark my words.
I...I...I can't form a proper reply to this. The idea that unwanted pregnancy and STDs are the only things to worry about with rape and child abuse frightens me to the core. While I agree with your views on torture you seriously need to think about what you just said. Rape is easily one of the most devastating a person can go through and to just dismiss it as a trauma that will only crush the weak is nothing short of disgusting. It is a form of torture, as is child abuse. The dominate high of a torturer is the same high of any rapist and child abuser. You can not hate one and dismiss the other.
 

Steve the Pocket

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jakefongloo said:
One of the perks of believing in an afterlife is that murder is meh. Child abuse can make for some very strong people and rape.....so? As long as no STD's were spread and no pregnancy happened rape is almost harmless. Weak people crush under the psychological trauma strong move on.
...

........

I... you... I... wha...

No. Just... no. I... you... NO. Fucking... no. There's just no...

...

OK, I want to be angry. I want ? no, I feel morally obligated to say something, like "I wish I could hate you to death" or even "I wish I could hate you to eternal damnation". But I'm just... stunned. Utterly stunned as to how... how... I don't even have words. Just...

...

........

...I don't want to live in this world anymore.

dex-dex said:
Oh I agree completely this this guy is a suck mother fucker and should never play in the NFL again.
When you think about it it is sending a horrible picture to the general public.
I also like the point you make how the NFL players can resemble a prison line up. If you are familiar with the Canadian Football league, on the off seasons, they are doing community service work and being teachers. now I am not saying that all the CFL players are goodie goods but maybe the NFL needs to start patrolling who they allow in.
Well, that's Canada for you. Everybody knows Canadians are all goodie-two-shoes...es. ;P
 

2xDouble

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righthanded said:
2xDouble said:
righthanded said:
Eh, weak episode

factory farming is morally on the same plane as dogfighting. if you eat meat, you eat it because you like the taste. any nutrients can be had from other sources for less cost.
Are you seriously saying that killing an animal to eat it is the same as torturing it for amusement? Don't you care about animals?
if you don't enjoy eating animals, there are alternatives, and they're more cost effective too.
greed drives profits from death in any case. I don't know why there's the need to draw a distinction.
So that's a no. The only thing that matters is making money.
 

Stevanchez

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I don't really care. And honestly, it seems really dumb to "DRAW THE LINE" at a videogame cover.
 

carnege4

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If he wins the poll in EA site, then let's take the cover and photoshop it and send to Fox News.


"Madden 2012"

"Now with bonus mode where the ball is a dog and other cool extras"
 

NickCooley

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From the Free Dictionary

mur·der (mûrdr)
n.
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Just something that niggled at me a little bit during the video. Now that's out of the way...

Yes what the guy did was pretty bastardish but he HAS done his time, I'm not gonna be inviting him around for tea any time soon but I'm not calling for his head either. Yet another reason to be thankful most of the western world has a rational justice system instead of going on the whims of the angry mob that want him lynched. Animal Cruelty, while deplorable is pretty low down on my crimes to be riled up over list with the usual suspects being at the top (genocide, murder, rape, paedophilia etc)

Also, while I respect others right to their opinions I can only hope the kind of people that feel murdering a fellow human being over an animal never get into any position of real power, thats an unbalanced and irrational mind right there.
 

dmase

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When athletes go to jail and come out they shouldn't be allowed back into probably the most lucrative sport in the world. Two years of jail then right back to living an incredible lifestyle. Hell most of them don't even go to jail they settle with the women that they've assaulted. I don't have any numbers but i'm pretty damn confident that sexual assault is the leading charge of most of the "greats".

The NFL won't ever stop these guys from coming back in because they would lose some of the best starters in the game. But its not like the NFL is the only one, i've seen soccer players all over the world slide out of the worst possible consequence, not being able to play ball again.

Of course I say crimes I mean violent unprovoked assault, just generally the worst crimes. I get bar fights, coke addiction, prostitutes. They serve there time for that no legitimate harm they have to rebuild their fanbase but vick and quite a few other just take crime to the highest levels and come out with endorsement deals and a trade across the country.
 

PunkRex

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Alot of people, including myself, already spouted about this on a thread a week or two ago but just for the record ill say it again.

I live in England and as a result dont know much about the NFL but its still about the only sport, alongside Rugby, I can watch without getting bored. The last couple of days have been really sunny so me and my brother went to the park and tossed the American football around and Eyeshield 21 is the best manga ive ever read. I also dont know much about PETA outside what ive seen on Southpark, despite all this,

FUCK VICK, even here in England we heard about this prick, a small part of me still hopes he gets ripped apart by wolfs! He should be given a second chance but that doesnt mean I have to like him and despite this "Madden curse" he should not be honoured in such away. If he had REALLY comes to terms with what he did he should take HIMSELF out of the running.
 

dex-dex

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Steve the Pocket said:
jakefongloo said:
One of the perks of believing in an afterlife is that murder is meh. Child abuse can make for some very strong people and rape.....so? As long as no STD's were spread and no pregnancy happened rape is almost harmless. Weak people crush under the psychological trauma strong move on.
...

........

I... you... I... wha...

No. Just... no. I... you... NO. Fucking... no. There's just no...

...

OK, I want to be angry. I want ? no, I feel morally obligated to say something, like "I wish I could hate you to death" or even "I wish I could hate you to eternal damnation". But I'm just... stunned. Utterly stunned as to how... how... I don't even have words. Just...

...

........

...I don't want to live in this world anymore.

dex-dex said:
Oh I agree completely this this guy is a suck mother fucker and should never play in the NFL again.
When you think about it it is sending a horrible picture to the general public.
I also like the point you make how the NFL players can resemble a prison line up. If you are familiar with the Canadian Football league, on the off seasons, they are doing community service work and being teachers. now I am not saying that all the CFL players are goodie goods but maybe the NFL needs to start patrolling who they allow in.
Well, that's Canada for you. Everybody knows Canadians are all goodie-two-shoes...es. ;P
at least our football league does not employ criminals just because they can put their butt in the air and throw a ball between their legs.
 

Eldarion

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Susan Arendt said:
boeingguy787 said:
Seriously, guys? NOBODY believes in second chances? I thought that the justice system was designed to rehabilitate people, and Vick seems to be rehabilitated (unlike countless others who have not changed their ways).
He got his second chance - he's still playing professional football and getting paid obscene amounts of money for it. He's been given the opportunity to make a living off his athletic prowess. Anything other than that? He was a millionaire who got his jollies torturing and killing innocent animals. He can die in a damn fire.
Here here.

Just because he did his time does not wash away what he did. Not to mention that having him on the cover of the next game is just terrible for its image.
 

eNTi

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you better shouldn't look more into what the your country does with your tax money on a daily basis abroad... because your so called "war heroes" doing the exact same thing to women and children. you might not be aware of that, but maybe this sports guy was just not aware of doing anything "bad" either. after all, we've all gotten different opinions on what is right and what is wrong. in that respect, i think you're overreacting and no, i don't hate dogs... i'm just saying.

not to mention what mcdonalds does to animals...
 

righthanded

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2xDouble said:
righthanded said:
2xDouble said:
righthanded said:
Eh, weak episode

factory farming is morally on the same plane as dogfighting. if you eat meat, you eat it because you like the taste. any nutrients can be had from other sources for less cost.
Are you seriously saying that killing an animal to eat it is the same as torturing it for amusement? Don't you care about animals?
if you don't enjoy eating animals, there are alternatives, and they're more cost effective too.
greed drives profits from death in any case. I don't know why there's the need to draw a distinction.
So that's a no. The only thing that matters is making money.
the only thing that matters is not drawing arbitrary distinctions.
if you care about animals, don't eat meat and don't fight dogs.
to say that michael vick is bad because he made money off animal cruelty and that purdue chicken makes money off of animal cruelty but isn't bad-- makes no sense.
 

hitheremynameisbob

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Jun 25, 2008
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Look, I agree completely that he shouldn't be on the cover. He's a monster of a man who hasn't earned my forgiveness. That said, morality is entirely subjective. Even if we can, as a whole, agree that what he did was wrong, suggesting that part of his deserved punishment for it be denial of appearing on the cover of a video game is arbitrary in a rather extreme manner, especially when we're still letting him get paid millions of dollars for throwing a ball. It seems more than a bit hypocritical to make him a rich man with one hand, ostensibly acknowledging his value to society (as we don't, in theory, pay people who do not provide a valuable service/good), while with the other saying that he's irredeemable and deserving of society's ire. If he's truly beyond redemption on the whole, we wouldn't still be rewarding him so extensively, which in turn suggests that he has some value to us that extends beyond his crimes. In which case, there's still a legitimate argument for his selection for the cover if said selection is based entirely on his record as a football player: a factor that is more or less unchanged by the vagaries of his personal life. What it comes down to is what exactly EA bases the selection on, which is a question that we have no hard input on, and which has no mandate to be based on precedent or any other set of knowable rules. We can make the argument that it's a poor business decision, or say that we don't want him based on our personal opinions, but in the end morality only enters into their decision if it's something they choose to consider. There's no binding obligation for them to "do the right thing" here, and frankly, so long as he's allowed to keep playing football, saying he can't be on the cover seems a bit strange of a place to take a stand.

Ultimately, if we want to really, without hypocrisy, demonstrate our reprehension for these acts in a way that extends beyond issues specifically related to the acts themselves, we need to do so unilaterally, not selectively. To elaborate, given the current situation, you'd be totally justified in refusing to let Vick dog sit for you, because he's demonstrated a blatant disregard for animal life. However, what has he done that specifically relates to his appearance on a video game cover? I can't really see the link there, in which case what we're arguing for here is a punitive treatment of the man. Punishment for the sake of punishment regardless of its relevance to his crime. In general, this sort of thing is difficult to justify when the judge, jury, and executioner are the public at large, but he's made himself open to it by becoming a public figure, I think, so that's not a reason to hold back. But then the question becomes, "What will doing this really accomplish?" The guy's still getting paid millions and we're not doing anything about THAT. If we really want to punish the guy, doesn't denying him the cover of a video game, when he's still showing up on TV, in magazines, on the internet, etc... with such frequency, and otherwise being rewarded just like he was before the crime's commission seem like a token punishment?

Ultimately, what I'm arguing for is that he should be more heavily impacted by any punitive public action. It shouldn't be something he disregards as a mere annoyance or curiosity. How heavy the punishment weighs is something that has to be decided by the public as a whole, as they're the only ones capable of enforcing it on him, and Bob does well to try and increase awareness of the situation. The argument, though, should be more extensive than just "Let's not put his face on the game." I think it should be "Let's stop watching him play and write his team's managers explaining WHY," or something else more powerful if we really want to make a difference. Hopefully something short of grabbing torches and pitchforks and storming his house, but the public has a vast array of punishments we can subject such a public figure to - indeed, his livelihood is more or less entirely dependent on our good graces. With that said, I understand the need to start somewhere, and maybe from that perspective this appeal is okay. It still just feels... small, to me. I suppose I applaud the effort, though.

Understand, I hope EA shows the good sense to not put him on the cover, but I think there are far more effective methods we could focus our efforts on in order to demonstrate our abhorrence of his actions. Bob's still done more than I have, so that does make me a bit of a hypocrite for even saying anything, but I'd encourage others who feel strongly on the issue to consider more serious action. Lord knows the man deserves everything he gets.
 

PunkRex

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NickCooley said:
From the Free Dictionary

mur·der (mûrdr)
n.
1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Just something that niggled at me a little bit during the video. Now that's out of the way...

Yes what the guy did was pretty bastardish but he HAS done his time, I'm not gonna be inviting him around for tea any time soon but I'm not calling for his head either. Yet another reason to be thankful most of the western world has a rational justice system instead of going on the whims of the angry mob that want him lynched. Animal Cruelty, while deplorable is pretty low down on my crimes to be riled up over list with the usual suspects being at the top (genocide, murder, rape, paedophilia etc)

Also, while I respect others right to their opinions I can only hope the kind of people that feel murdering a fellow human being over an animal never get into any position of real power, thats an unbalanced and irrational mind right there.
Look guy, I understand were your coming from and I cant really speak for other animal lovers like myself but its not about valueing animals over people, its about having humanity to begin with. If you want to get technical, then sure, murder may not be the word but such deplorable acts dont deserve any sort of defense. I believe that humans are above animals but that means we have a responsibility to act human towards them, not to kill unless necessary and to NEVER cause unessary pain. Giving someone who robbed a bank a second chance makes sense as were unsure why he did it but if he shoots someone while doing it then it doesnt matter, screw him.
 

Crazy_Bird

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Oct 21, 2009
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I think you are exaggerating, Bob.

First of all Vick did this apparently for the profit. That makes his actions not better bot understandable. Because his actions are understandable he is not the cruel monster you made him out to be. Just a greedy swine without a conscience. NOT evil incarnated. Ed Gein may be viewed as the monster you painted this Vick guy to be.

I am all for animal rights and proper treatment (including slaughtering) of animals and this is still a crime. Here comes the but: There are things done much worse to humans and I personally place humans above any animal any given day. Hence while a cruel and gruesome crime.

Speaking of crime: He did his time. Is he still a bad guy and into shady dealings? No? Then he is legally and practically a clean slate. The rehabilitation is an important aspect of democracy and "once a crook, always a crook" is a bad concept and dare I say it almost totalitarian.
 

Steve the Pocket

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dex-dex said:
Steve the Pocket said:
dex-dex said:
Oh I agree completely this this guy is a suck mother fucker and should never play in the NFL again.
When you think about it it is sending a horrible picture to the general public.
I also like the point you make how the NFL players can resemble a prison line up. If you are familiar with the Canadian Football league, on the off seasons, they are doing community service work and being teachers. now I am not saying that all the CFL players are goodie goods but maybe the NFL needs to start patrolling who they allow in.
Well, that's Canada for you. Everybody knows Canadians are all goodie-two-shoes...es. ;P
at least our football league does not employ criminals just because they can put their butt in the air and throw a ball between their legs.
No, no, I meant that in a good way. Half-jokingly, of course, since I'm sure not all Canadians are paragons of virtue; it's just that there's this very prominent media image that they are, and I have yet to see any evidence otherwise. It's pretty cool, but it's also funny.