The Big Picture: Not Okay

remnant_phoenix

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Zenron said:
I've never understood why people think the right to free speech means they're allowed to be an arsehole to people without consequence.
It's the other way around. They want to be an arsehole first, so they then retroactively use "free speech" as a justification.
 

Sabrestar

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Apr 13, 2010
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Slycne said:
I might even go a step further to postulate that the actually professionals are ok, but it's the people riding just below that edge that are the real problem.
There's definitely something to this thought, and it's not specific to gaming. There are "bad apples" in every walk of life, even professional pursuits; it's that by their very nature, professionals are more visible than the average person. And whenever a "professional" anything does something bad, there is a legion of apologists saying some variation of "it's just part of the game/business/scene/fnord". And then there's people like me, who respond with some variation of "But it's still wrong."

This was the excuse when Todd Bertuzzi tried to murder Steve Moore in the middle of a hockey game. It's the excuse when John Daly does something criminal, misogynistic, or both, again. It was the excuse when Latrell Sprewell choked his coach, and the NBA forced his team to reinstate him. It's the excuse now, as we discover just how many NFL teams paid bounties to their players for injuring opponents.

Of course you can say what you want, and the Constitution guarantees that it is legal to do so. It also guarantees the right of more open-minded people to criticise you, and ostracise you, and shout you down.

The fact that "it's the way it's always been" means nothing. For thousands of years human sacrifice existed in the Americas. (Yes, I know that it wasn't anywhere near as common or as widespread as was once thought. Just humour me a moment.) Yes, at the time it wasn't considered awful or horrific by the cultures that practiced it. Would we accept it now? Hells NO.

My wife plays more video games and is arguably even more of a "nerd" than I am. How many of this tool's defenders would have the courage to say this to her face? And then stand there and listen to her response? I thought not.

And one final note. This tool did not apologise. "I'm sorry if anyone was offended" is NOT. AN. APOLOGY. If YOU can't accept you did anything wrong, then stand by what you said. If you can't, then back the heck down and think about what you did.
 

Ickabod

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May 29, 2008
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This is how the culture changes.

Surprised there was no picture of Rush after this weeks events.
 

Roganzar

Winter is coming
Jun 13, 2009
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Scarim Coral said:
Ok I must of been under some rock since I never heard of Aris constrosity let alone the whole Cross Assult show.
So against sexism is something you do know or is it next week is suppose to be stuff you are know alot of?
I also was not aware of this going on.
I support Free Speech, I do understand what the amendment entails, and I agree that spouting off ignorant statements has consequences that must and shall be paid.
 

MovieBob

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Dec 31, 2008
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It really is times like these where I'm most ashamed to be associated with gamer geeks.

I really do think the problem is that this Bakhtanians asshole isn't bright enough to see the problems with what he's said and done. He mentioned in an interview that in the good ol' days of arcades, the regulars were put off by newcomers who hadn't supposedly "earned" their right to be respected as they play. Right off the bat, he can fuck off with his exclusionary nostalgia trip. Because him and his friends were assholes to strangers in the 90s, this somehow gives him license to harass a girl while she attempts to play this game?

I have NOTHING against some casual smack talk. In the context of a game that is designed around competition, that sort of light joking fits in perfectly... But this "Get in the kitchen, you skirt... or else I'll have my way with you because I'm a man!" mentality needs to go. We're not in junior high anymore, you schlub. Girls aren't "icky" because they won't talk to you.

I watched about 13 minutes of the clip in question, where I genuinely had to pause the damned thing so that I could catch my breath... It was so over the top brain-dead and sexist, it felt like he was reading some unused dialog from Biff Tannen.
 

darksakul

Old Man? I am not that old .....
Jun 14, 2008
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As part of the fighting game community I am disgusted and outraged from the incident from Assault Cross. Yes I do admit we have our share of weirdos and pervs, but Aris' actions really cross the lines (and reviles something about the ugly side of nerd sub-culture).

You know what Bob is right, this kind of behavior really need to be stopped.
I ask that people from all over to police their own fandoms and friends, to use positive peer pressure to keep your fellow gamers in line and letting them know this is not acceptable.
 

Aity

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Jan 26, 2012
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I already have a tremendous amount of respect for you Bob. But now...

+1 respect

has now been added to your running tally. Last count, 1,123 and climbing.
 

kingmob

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I'm sorry Bob, but no, you are wrong. Not about sexism being wrong of course, but that shrugging instances off as this one somehow is "a bad thing". 'Nerd culture' as you perceive it does not exist, gaming, the internet etc. is such a big part of normal life now, that it doesn't need defending from bad apples. At most you give some sort of weird justification for morons such as that guy to think that they are supported in these things.

This just doesn't work, in the same way that it doesn't work for Muslims to have to actively remove themselves from the crimes of other Muslims. It just implicates their religion and never actually solves a problem or hurts the offender.
In the same way a rallying cry to root out sexism in 'nerd culture', simply implies that this is an actual bigger problem of the culture somehow, while it is simply a problem of culture as a whole. Sexism exists everywhere, therefore also in games and gaming communities.

Focus on the offender. Him implicating his fellow gamers doesn't necessitate a response from them, on grounds that he is clearly a moron. A claim never justifies a response, we would be fighting windmills everywhere.

Finally, on the internet, bad behavior is enlarged. An unfortunate, but logical consequence of the anonymity involved. It is a bad place to base any view of a culture on, because the bad apples will be much more visible. Just like the other drivers on the road aren't responsible for drivers acting like an ass since they are in their safe enclosed anonymous environment (called a car :p), other gamers and internetters are not responsible for these freaks. These people are among us, but can not get away with it in real life. They will always be there...
 

Jiefu

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May 24, 2010
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Personally, as a member of the StarCraft community, I was quite happy when that bigoted manchild said that a community with less sexism would be StarCraft. It's always funny when intended insults are actually compliments.
 

Callate

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Dec 5, 2008
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Errrrr...

I have a feeling I'm on the verge of saying something that may get me slaughtered.

I don't know all the particulars of the Bakhtanians incident. I mean, I've heard the story, but I haven't read the particulars of what the man said. I know it was supposed to be pretty ugly, and I agree that it was wrong. I'm just not sure that I'm in total agreement as to why it was wrong.

My understanding was that this was supposed to be a quasi-public event shown to a public audience. It was implicitly open to female gamers, and no one should have been forced or expected to put up with some kind of demeaning hazing because they were female. Bakhtanians was absolutely in the wrong, and should have been ashamed of himself both for his behavior and for having the nerve to defend it.

But where I get nervous is where Bob seems to be saying that there is no private place for attitudes or ideas that the general public finds offensive, only the public sphere where it comes right out of the gate to get immediately pelted with fruit for its intrinsic wrongness.

That idea disturbs me. I know we're increasingly living in a culture where privacy is a thing of the past. And certainly if you're doing something like a show or a podcast, you take the good of creating something for public consumption with the bad. Likewise, for example, if you're an employer, you better pay attention to laws about discrimination. The availability of fair workplaces where people don't feel threatened or harassed is an issue that effects us all, and I think as a society we're better for strong laws that protect us that way.

But I don't see the harm of Mac users quietly echoing to each other the superiority of users of their chosen platform, or "furries" sharing fantasies with one another, to give two examples (neither of which include me), despite the fact that expression of those ideas in the public sphere might get those who express them treated with derision and disgust.

Shorthand to be later misinterpreted: I see the problem with expressing a bad attitude in public as though the public should accept and mainstream that attitude. I'm concerned with that form of indignation, however righteous, being carried over into areas where people who may recognize their attitudes and ideas are "niche" want to share them with each other.
 

Prof. Monkeypox

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Mar 17, 2010
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Well Bob, I'd say that this position doesn't even need to be expressed, but it clearly does apparently.

Ugh, I just hope that Captain Neckbeard himself (that Aris guy) gets canned from the show or excluded from fighting tournaments, because he is making both of them look bad. Competitive online multiplayer really is quite awful though, where else can you find a context where being compared to a rapist or serial killer is a compliment?
 

Excludos

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Sep 14, 2008
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Why are we even talking about this?

haha, sorry.

Altought I somewhat meant it too. There really isn't anything to talk about when it comes to sexual harassment. It shouldn't happen, ever. Anyone who thinks otherwise deserves to step on a lego (and you know how much that hurts).

Also lol at the starcraft jabb, the community known for being the most mature, grown up, friendly and welcoming in esports..especially for its size. I'm perhaps a bit biased there thought, I'm part of it myself after all.

What I really don't agree with thought, is the use of certain words during casting. Now don't get me wrong, I know several people who have actually been raped, and nothing angers me more than when I hear about it. But the word itself doesn't mean anything when put into a completely different context. Of course there are different words casters could use instead of this spesific one. But considering there are about a million words someone somewhere could maybe find offensive..where do we draw the line?
 

moosek

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I'm not a misogynist, racist, homophobe, or any of that crap that get applied to intolerant people. But I'm so apathetic that I often get blamed for being the source of the problem. I have beliefs, but I'm not joining any cause. I'm not fighting anyone else's battles like some kind of mercenary debater of unity and acceptance. I'll leave the uncalled representation of sexual acceptance in nerd culture to Bob Chipman, N'Gai Kroll, and Arthur Gies.
 

Seventh Actuality

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Apr 23, 2010
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kingmob said:
I'm sorry Bob, but no, you are wrong. Not about sexism being wrong of course, but that shrugging instances off as this one somehow is "a bad thing". 'Nerd culture' as you perceive it does not exist, gaming, the internet etc. is such a big part of normal life now, that it doesn't need defending from bad apples. At most you give some sort of weird justification for morons such as that guy to think that they are supported in these things.

This just doesn't work, in the same way that it doesn't work for Muslims to have to actively remove themselves from the crimes of other Muslims. It just implicates their religion and never actually solves a problem or hurts the offender.
In the same way a rallying cry to root out sexism in 'nerd culture', simply implies that this is an actual bigger problem of the culture somehow, while it is simply a problem of culture as a whole. Sexism exists everywhere, therefore also in games and gaming communities.

Focus on the offender. Him implicating his fellow gamers doesn't necessitate a response from them, on grounds that he is clearly a moron. A claim never justifies a response, we would be fighting windmills everywhere.
No, nerd culture as separate from the mainstream is definitely misogynist as hell and to claim otherwise is just trying to give your pet hobbies protection from the evils of "generalization" that they don't deserve or even need. If this was just one guy being a douchebag, nobody would comment on it. This guy is representative of attitudes that permeate gaming and that aren't going to change unless people who get to shout "tits or GTFO!" into their headsets all day without every being called on it are finally forced to see that their bullshit is not okay. He is representative of and being cheered on by people who are offenders and there are a shitload of them out there.

This is not comparable to Muslims having to apologise for terrorism because Muslims are genuinely a discriminated-against minority. Young male nerds are the majority in gaming, they are not victims and all they have to worry about from "generalizations" is getting their precious feelings hurt because they can't take anything away from a problem except how it affects their exact demographic. If it bothers you, do what I do and mentally exempt yourself - I know I'm not part of the problem, so I don't get defensive.
 

Lieju

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There's also the fact that a lot of people don't really think what they are saying.
I have confronted people about this kind of a thing before, and often people will say 'But I don't really mean that, it's just a way of saying things'.

To which I say, try to make make the language you use reflect your views, then.

Another excuse is that 'they trashtalk to men too', but that trashtalk directed at men is not about them being men. Insulting a woman about something that doesn't directly relate to their sex would not be sexist (it would be rude, though).

If anything, men can be shamed by suggesting they have feminine qualities.

But can you imagine that someone on those shows would use the fact that a person is a heterosexual man to insult them?

moosek said:
I'm not a misogynist, racist, homophobe, or any of that crap that get applied to intolerant people. But I'm so apathetic that I often get blamed for being the source of the problem. I have beliefs, but I'm not joining any cause. I'm not fighting anyone else's battles like some kind of mercenary debater of unity and acceptance. I'll leave the uncalled representation of sexual acceptance in nerd culture to Bob Chipman, N'Gai Kroll, and Arthur Gies.
How is it 'fighting anyone else's battles'? You don't consider yourself to be a part of 'nerd culture'? At the very least, since you're on this site, I'm assuming you play videogames and are a part of that culture.
 

MovieBob

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Callate said:
Shorthand to be later misinterpreted: I see the problem with expressing a bad attitude in public as though the public should accept and mainstream that attitude. I'm concerned with that form of indignation, however righteous, being carried over into areas where people who may recognize their attitudes and ideas are "niche" want to share them with each other.
Well, he clearly stated that free speech allows you to say what you want.
However, you must be ready for the consequences. If you say something overtly racist, you will be called on it. If you say something homophobic (looking at you Santorum) then you'll be challenged. You CAN say what you want but if it is stupid or hurtful, you are going to see a backlash.

Beyond that, I can't think of a single reason to hold onto outdated attitudes that would cause such hateful things to be spewed. I still refer to things as "gay" in a negative sense, but only because it has become the colloquial norm. I would never speak ill of gay people, or try to argue against what is clearly someone's natural, sexual tendencies.

Can anyone give me a good reason why racist, sexist, or homophobic ideas or attitudes should be given a safe haven?

As for your tangent about furries and Mac users, that seems wholly unrelated to the issue at hand.
 

Triaed

Not Gone Gonzo
Jan 16, 2009
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Bravo, Bob!
And thank you for that primer on the First Amendment that so many people hide behind of so self-righteously