The Big Picture: Not Okay
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Pretty much 100 percent agreement on this. You may wish to argue that society as a whole has become more crass and more commonly uses extremely negative words, but that isn't necessarily sexism. Most people who use the term "rape" in the sense of colloquialism are just as likely to use it to describe themselves. For example, when forced to listen to music I find less then pleasurable, I may refer to it as "raping my ears". Is it a vulgar way to say that I dislike the music? Yes. Is it sexist? No. Could I be a little gentler about it? Sure, but where's the fun in that?illas said:
Not saying that it never is sexist...but it isn't always.
mandalorian2298 said:
Mr. Psychology professor. I am aware that this was ment for the non-science crowd. However, being a scientist myself and in the interest of further enforcing the validity of your argument, please provide some references for the points you have made, otherwise you are at risk of finding your own statements fall victim to your line of logic.
I personally find your above, unsupported, statement flawed, without re-enforcement, and ignore-ant of the possibly of collective moralities playing a part in supporting a right or wrong ideal. I am no expert but I am aware of the contention in psychology surrounding the idea of morality. I would love to give references myself but it is late and it is not my field of study so I have no groundiing to make an informed search of the literature.
Diction minutiae opener: while it's not a friendly or positive term to use in any context, "rape" isn't a sexist term. It's not gender-oriented. I also don't think it'd be considered more pleasant to say you repeatedly gutted the enemy team with a your KA-BAR before shooting them in the head over and over again (being what you literally did in the game) than it is to simply say you raped them. Neither of these actions would be considered socially positive if they took place in the real world; I'm not sure I see why one is looked upon less well than the other. Yeah, I'm sure some people get upset when they hear someone say, "Dude, I totally raped him hard," but I'm betting those people would be equally upset by, say, "Dude, I totally shoved my fist through his skull and tore out his spine from the neck up" (why hello there, Mortal Kombat). How is one worse than the other, exactly? Or is the recommendation that players simply not talk about their gameplay at all?
More on topic: yeah, this kind of behavior is prevalent, and not great. One of the more "wtf" terms I recall from when I was playing various fighting games in the arcade is "Jewed." As a verb. As in, "Oh man I can't believe that super combo missed - you got so jewed!" I just had to look at the guy like, Really? Did you just say that? Was reminded of this when it came up again in a Mumble conversation while playing League of Legends a few days ago (MOBA community has an unfortunately high number of similarities to the fighting game community, mostly in the negative aspects). The speaker didn't seem to understand why I was disapproving of the usage.
Honestly though, I'd say it's more of an individual thing than a community one. In those arcade fighting groups I'd play with, maybe one or two people out of about twenty were abrasively vulgar. Likewise, that one guy in Mumble is the only one of the group who uses that kind of language. Point being, Aris' argument re: "This is the fighting game community" is bullshit. It's part of the fighting game community because those people are in it at the moment; it's not some inherent aspect of the community. The community won't be "lost" if that kind of trash talk suddenly evaporates. It's not an integral element of the thing. It's just crap. Now, I will say trash talk, as a concept, is an immutable part of that community. It's part of almost every competitive community I can think of; it's just the type of talk that changes.
Changing the type of trash talk common to the fighting game community won't change the community. It'll just make it less caustic to be around.
More on topic: yeah, this kind of behavior is prevalent, and not great. One of the more "wtf" terms I recall from when I was playing various fighting games in the arcade is "Jewed." As a verb. As in, "Oh man I can't believe that super combo missed - you got so jewed!" I just had to look at the guy like, Really? Did you just say that? Was reminded of this when it came up again in a Mumble conversation while playing League of Legends a few days ago (MOBA community has an unfortunately high number of similarities to the fighting game community, mostly in the negative aspects). The speaker didn't seem to understand why I was disapproving of the usage.
Honestly though, I'd say it's more of an individual thing than a community one. In those arcade fighting groups I'd play with, maybe one or two people out of about twenty were abrasively vulgar. Likewise, that one guy in Mumble is the only one of the group who uses that kind of language. Point being, Aris' argument re: "This is the fighting game community" is bullshit. It's part of the fighting game community because those people are in it at the moment; it's not some inherent aspect of the community. The community won't be "lost" if that kind of trash talk suddenly evaporates. It's not an integral element of the thing. It's just crap. Now, I will say trash talk, as a concept, is an immutable part of that community. It's part of almost every competitive community I can think of; it's just the type of talk that changes.
Changing the type of trash talk common to the fighting game community won't change the community. It'll just make it less caustic to be around.
I remember that episode. It was great.castlewise said:
On topic; why does Bob think we hate these episodes?
Oh right....a lot of us are gamers. Why must those bad stereotypes come from real places? Dark, dim, and evil places.
A few things. First off, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended. Second off, TRASH TALK IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF NOT ONLY THE FIGHTING GAME COMMUNITY, BUT OF COMPETITIVE GAMING AS A WHOLE! I'm sure the woman involved knew that going in. Third, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended.
The only thing I really disagreed with Bob on this one (and I disagree with him on a number of things in this show), is his assertion that "Fairness" is not "Censorship". Or rather, that the justice system punishing people for using hate-speech is not "censorship".
Gaming has become so ubiquitous the problems its community faces mirrors the problems all of society faces. That doesn't make these issues any less important to identify and discuss, but your naturally going to get gamers to be all defensive when you label it their problem and not just a problem in society.
So what of the fighting game community? Certainly a boys club among gaming groups, but having numerous interactions with them I cannot say misogyny is part of that culture. Offensive smack talk however, is very much a part of that culture. But there is a reason for this, that tied to the competitiveness of this culture. Every time you got an idiot like this shouting their mouth off, it draws attention to the fighting game community and encourages other people to join. The sort of competitive people that want to kick the ass of that jerk and everyone in the community like them.
This is not the first time it has happen, and it probably won't be the last time. But I would be really glad to see a ton of women getting competitive in the fighting community in response to this. Like a wrestling villain, these jerks are destined to lose to more intelligent and empathetic individuals, and it is usually at the hands of the people they try to offend. I would wager that is what the majority of the fighting game community would like to see. It has happened before after all, make it happen again.
So what of the fighting game community? Certainly a boys club among gaming groups, but having numerous interactions with them I cannot say misogyny is part of that culture. Offensive smack talk however, is very much a part of that culture. But there is a reason for this, that tied to the competitiveness of this culture. Every time you got an idiot like this shouting their mouth off, it draws attention to the fighting game community and encourages other people to join. The sort of competitive people that want to kick the ass of that jerk and everyone in the community like them.
This is not the first time it has happen, and it probably won't be the last time. But I would be really glad to see a ton of women getting competitive in the fighting community in response to this. Like a wrestling villain, these jerks are destined to lose to more intelligent and empathetic individuals, and it is usually at the hands of the people they try to offend. I would wager that is what the majority of the fighting game community would like to see. It has happened before after all, make it happen again.
Which is exactly what the threat of punishment does.Shjade said:
If you can't say something for fear of being punished by law, then it's censorship.
Some will disagree with me on this, but we have laws and punishment not for justice, but to prevent crime from occurring in the first place.
This is talking about the same community that has the game Leisure Suit Larry. Overall I do agree. The guy that the first half of the video was about was simply using a scapegoat to justify actions which really can't be justified. On top of scaring away potential female gamers from games and being proud of being a member of the 'group,' it also gives us all a bad black eye. It really helps justify the opinions of the opponents of games. The section who believe that kind of behavior is small but gets a lot of newstime. Just like the same thing happening in the rest of media and similar things.
But at the same time I don't like the double standard that exists for many remarks. You mentioned casual racism and sexism, but those exist on both sides of the fence. It just gets viewed differently. Now that comes from a large cultural difference not only between races, but genders. But it's still there. Like the fact a woman can say 'all men are pigs' without problems and normally are meant with agreement; but if a man were to say 'all women are sluts' which is essence the same thing (considering an entire gender as being focused on sexual actions, either leering or otherwise) then at best they're considered sexist. At worst they're sued. The same thing goes for racial tensions.
The common excuse for that is 'well this gender/race was oppressed for so long' or 'they still face negitive views they don't deserve.' That's true. But at the same time you can't really say we live in a truely equal society when there's still a large gap between what's acceptable for the two groups. There are racists in every race, and sexists in both genders. It isn't something exclusive to one group. Now should it be more acceptable for one group over another? I don't think so, but I can understand why it is.
Don't get me wrong. The slurs are stupid no matter where or who they come from. And in the gaming community, where these kinds of things happen often (though it mostly seems to be younger players or 'swearing teens' from my experiences), it's an issue that we really do need to address. But keeping that double standard in mind is important.
But at the same time I don't like the double standard that exists for many remarks. You mentioned casual racism and sexism, but those exist on both sides of the fence. It just gets viewed differently. Now that comes from a large cultural difference not only between races, but genders. But it's still there. Like the fact a woman can say 'all men are pigs' without problems and normally are meant with agreement; but if a man were to say 'all women are sluts' which is essence the same thing (considering an entire gender as being focused on sexual actions, either leering or otherwise) then at best they're considered sexist. At worst they're sued. The same thing goes for racial tensions.
The common excuse for that is 'well this gender/race was oppressed for so long' or 'they still face negitive views they don't deserve.' That's true. But at the same time you can't really say we live in a truely equal society when there's still a large gap between what's acceptable for the two groups. There are racists in every race, and sexists in both genders. It isn't something exclusive to one group. Now should it be more acceptable for one group over another? I don't think so, but I can understand why it is.
Don't get me wrong. The slurs are stupid no matter where or who they come from. And in the gaming community, where these kinds of things happen often (though it mostly seems to be younger players or 'swearing teens' from my experiences), it's an issue that we really do need to address. But keeping that double standard in mind is important.
You realize that stating that you're a professor of philosophy at the outset of your post is at best a non sequitur, and is likely to be construed as an argument ad hominem that your opinion is correct. I submit to you, sir, that your supposed disclaimer is itself an attempt to bait people. ;pmandalorian2298 said:
How are you using the term 'objective'? The proposition "so-and-so holds such-and-such opinion" could very well be considered objectively true if it is a publicly accessible fact that the person in question holds the opinion in question. And what is a subjective opinion? Aren't opinions subjective by definition? If I believe that the moral truth is best expressed by Kant's Categorical Imperative, is that a subjective opinion?mandalorian2298 said:
Are you alluding to the descriptive/normative distinction? The descriptive fact that someone holds an opinion does not mean that said person should hold that opinion or that the rule expressed by the opinion has prescriptive force. Unless, of course, one accepts a version of moral relativism. But I frankly don't understand the point of moral relativism; why not just commit to moral anti-realism or non-cognitivism at that point?
If everyone became Nietzscheans we wouldn't have this problem. Largely because everyone would realize that the very thought of an objective moral truth is absurd.mandalorian2298 said:
I vaguely recall them telling us as much when I was in kindergarten. If it didn't sink in then, there isn't much chance of it happening now. I find it hilarious that we don't teach any courses on logic or critical thinking until college. Doesn't that just say it all?mandalorian2298 said:
Couldn't have said it better myself. Society won't become better by conditioning people to whine and cry at the slightest offense. What you'll get is a society of whimpering idiots who think it is an act of violence to question someone's beliefs. People need to grow a thicker skin and a sense of humor.mandalorian2298 said:
Discouragement != censorship. Yeah, laws and consequences for breaking them are intended to discourage criminal activity, but when that criminal activity happens anyway, what follows? Punishment applicable to the action. Whatever happened still happened.zehydra said:
Likewise, if you say some horrific offensive harmful thing and get punished for it, you haven't been censored. Whatever you said is still out there, particularly if it was written rather than spoken. It isn't blacked out or removed (unless there's a legal obligation to do so - libel etc.). No censorship took place.
If you really want to keep going with the comparison to crime, I'd liken censorship to a physical barricade that literally denies you the ability to break into someone's home to steal from them, rather than the penalty for breaking in and stealing things. You flat out can't do it, regardless of what the consequences might be if you could.
Sounds as if you were holding back on not yelling near the end there.
I don't quite understand the obsession with homosexuality and the desire to put it into every part of every media these days. Just because it's becoming an acknowledged part of society doesn't mean that it has to be shoe-horned into everything.
I don't hate homosexuals and I believe in equal rights but I find the act of homosexuality to be disgusting and repulsive and I don't like how mass media is shoving it in our faces. (Then again I don't like it when they show it with different genders either.)
I'm not sure if everyone (media) is just trying to be more 'in-depth', 'cutting edge' or 'thumb on the pulse of society' or if they all think that this is a cause that isn't being championed enough.
Once this is no longer such an issue I'd like these people to bring other issues that plague our nation such as poverty and crime and disease and maybe address those perhaps just as reverently.
It of course won't happen because those things don't do one thing that homosexuality does and that is be controversial. When it comes down to it people (media) wants things to sell and the best way to do that is to back something that is controversial regardless of how it is that way to begin with.
I don't quite understand the obsession with homosexuality and the desire to put it into every part of every media these days. Just because it's becoming an acknowledged part of society doesn't mean that it has to be shoe-horned into everything.
I don't hate homosexuals and I believe in equal rights but I find the act of homosexuality to be disgusting and repulsive and I don't like how mass media is shoving it in our faces. (Then again I don't like it when they show it with different genders either.)
I'm not sure if everyone (media) is just trying to be more 'in-depth', 'cutting edge' or 'thumb on the pulse of society' or if they all think that this is a cause that isn't being championed enough.
Once this is no longer such an issue I'd like these people to bring other issues that plague our nation such as poverty and crime and disease and maybe address those perhaps just as reverently.
It of course won't happen because those things don't do one thing that homosexuality does and that is be controversial. When it comes down to it people (media) wants things to sell and the best way to do that is to back something that is controversial regardless of how it is that way to begin with.
Thank god for you, Bob. This is your best video yet! I can really relate, since, as a homosexual, hearing "OMG fag, go get butt-fucked!" as a common term for "Damn it, I died," in Call of Duty certainly doesn't sit well with me. In fact, I think I might go eye for an eye one of these days. Fucking dick, go slap your girlfriend's tits! Yeah, how does that feel, random Call of Duty player?
I cannot agree with this more. If everyone suddenly started breaking into houses and setting them on fire it wouldn't make it any less wrong.canadamus_prime said:
Popularity =/= Justification for ___ism