The Big Picture: Not Okay

ReiverCorrupter

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Eri said:
The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller said:
I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.
And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.
Gee... So let me get this straight... When I say "Ha! Ha! I just tore out your throat!" after I knife someone in Battlefield 3, it's almost as bad as saying I raped someone? I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Tearing out someone's throat with a big-ass knife is perfectly socially acceptable, you just better not make it into a sexual thing.

People want to object to what language you use when you simulate killing someone. F-n' Hilarious.

OT: What's your point Bob? You don't approve of people who use sexist/bigoted language? Someone get him a freaking metal for controversy. I honestly don't understand what he's suggesting, I'm pretty sure everyone who uses that type of language is already aware of how socially unacceptable it is, which is why they only use it anonymously. So what is Bob suggesting we do about it?

I don't think anyone has actually made the argument that it's OKAY just because it's an entrenched practice. I think the argument is that because it's an entrenched practice there isn't much you can do to stop it, other than implementing something controversial like the system that Blizzard tried to use that forced people to use their real names. Is that what Bob is suggesting? Or does he just want to sit around a drum circle, sing Kumbaya, and give lectures over the internet that the target audience isn't going to listen to?
 

Robert Ewing

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I'm strongly against all the nitpicky 'sexist' things that are being rammed into our consciousness. Like it was a thing here in Britain were you'd get told off in public buildings for saying things along the lines of 'hey guys' and other phrases that would otherwise not include women in it when there was a women present. I'm so glad that got shot down quicker than a Guantanamo escapee. It's just utterly stupid and pointless, and a waste of time. And all it does is help sexism become such a joke topic.

But THIS is a perfect example of what types of sexism needs to be addressed.

Although I don't agree with the not okay using 'rape' as synonymous with getting beat. Drunk people say 'I'm slaughtered' which infers they were cut down and mutilated. Guys who hate work will say that 'work was hell' as if to infer that everyone they came into contact with was a tortured soul that had been sentenced to damnation for all eternity. And that's not to mention that they hate work. They harbor such a deep loathing for it, and anything involved that they hate something.

It's just a small mutation of the English language I suppose. I dunno, i'm sure other people's opinions will be different.
 

ayvee

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Jan 29, 2010
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Eri said:
The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller said:
I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.
And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.
At what point was it said that men should not use that word? I don't remember this being gender specific.
 

Skjutentrast

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The Internet is a big place. I'm a fan of ignoring shit you don't like. Twenty-motherfucking-twelve and people are still bitching about men being as sexist when they talk to other men?
 

thisbymaster

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him over there said:
thisbymaster said:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.
So you are saying that instead of being entitled to not be offended and kick people out we are all entitled to name call back those who name called us? Mutual Retaliation instead of proactive removal of those with almost seemingly universal unpopular or rude opinions? If so I think that I need to figure out how your brain works because I need to get in on it.
It is simple, I may not agree with what you have to say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.
 

mandalorian2298

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Disclaimer: The first sentence or the post that follows it is not meant to be baiting. I am a professor of philosophy and this is a sincere statement of my feelings.

Some of the views expressed in this video hurt me on a deep emotional level. If it was just one man's views then I wouldn't give it much thought since mistakes happen and it's often very hard to see, admit and correct one's own mistake. However, the delusion in question seems to have spread over large portions of humanity, including some of our best and brightest (Movie Bob being an example for both), and I am starting to feel like a the last sane guy in the asylum.

The mistake I am talking about is:


Unlike saying proven objective truths (for example "Randomly attacking people on the street will not make you popular among the police officers."), expressing purely subjective opinions does not obligate other people to agree with you (for example, I believe that the answer to most of philosophical question can be found in one or more episodes of 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer', but I do not think that the fact Stanford didn't include that show in their curriculum makes Stanford's philosophy program inadequate.)


So far, I am sure that most of you are on board with me. However, for reasons that are entirely mysterious to me, most people believe that, if they wish it REALLY hard, their subjective opinions will MAGICALLY BECOME OBJECTIVE TRUTHS! Aalakazam!

For the betterment of the human race, I present you with a short list of things that DO NOT transmogrify your opinions into objective truths:

1. Shouting.
2. The fact that YOU really believe it to be true, despite the lack of conclusive evidence (unless you are being played by Kevin Costner).
3. The fact that you find the opposing opinion offensive does not make you right, it makes you small-minded (or else every racist, homophobe or fanatic of any kind would be a moral authority by virtue of insanity).
4. Equating the act of expressing an opinion that you disagree with or using an expression that you dislike (but which in itself is not meant as an actual threat against the life or well-being of another person) with an act of aggression does not make you extra sensitive; it makes you insane. (this seems to be stupidity du jour these days. As a method of reality check, I invite all of you 'words can hurt just as bad' people to go to find a rape victim and say to him/her: "What happened to you is terrible. It is just as bad as using 'rape' as a casual synonym for defeat.")

People do not need your permission to have or to express an opinion. If you think that they are wrong - challenge them. If you know them to be logically incorrect - prove it. If you can't but you are still bothered that they are allowed to freely speak their mind -

THEN
GROW
THE
*CENSORED FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THIS WORD EXISTS*
UP!!!

ADDED on 3.7.2012. 9.18h

5. The fact that many people share your opinion does not prove your opinion to an objective truth (if you disagree, then please prove me wrong. Gather a herd of people who also don't believe me and win the lottery 10 times in a row by making everyone share your belief that you are going to win. :)
 

The Random One

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I was getting tired of seeing a bunch of columns, videos etc. about this incident, then I remembered that unless there was a (perhaps disproportionate) response to every instance of prejudice in nerd culture, assholes like Aris won't get it through their thick heads that no, it's not okay. Bob's response was particularly well made.

I find that the main problem with gaming subculture isn't so much that it's racist/sexist/whatever, but that it hates change and reasonable argument. People will defend sexual harassment in the same way that they'll defend that overpowered classes shouldn't be changed - out of an emotional outset that equals a small part of the experience with the whole, without any care or attention for The Big Picture?. This kind of environment will foster sickening viewpoints like those the same way a damp, dark closed fosters moss.

Like moss, the only thing to do against it is to put it out into the sun. Bring those problems into full view and let everyone know that it's bad until it's gone. Preach on, brothers and sisters.
 

him over there

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thisbymaster said:
him over there said:
thisbymaster said:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.
So you are saying that instead of being entitled to not be offended and kick people out we are all entitled to name call back those who name called us? Mutual Retaliation instead of proactive removal of those with almost seemingly universal unpopular or rude opinions? If so I think that I need to figure out how your brain works because I need to get in on it.
It is simple, I may not agree with what you have to say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.
Good to know there are thick skinned people like you here. I always told myself that tolerance is a two way street. A person who is racist, a homophobe, misogynist or what have you can keep those thoughts, they can say those thoughts, they can make people angry with those thoughts and words. The second they hurt people (being offended is not hurting people by the way) you can punish them, but you can't punish them for thinking or saying them because then you're persecuting them for what they think.You don't get to stop them, you just get to make them mad back.
 

MB202

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I DO like it when Bob gets into deeper subjects, or more controversial topics. I also like it when he has fun with topics, especially the comic book episodes. I don't like his attempts at humor, though, they all pretty much suck. Other than that, MovieBob rocks!

As to the subject matter, it's not gaming-related, but I go to a forum where people suffer from abuse and discrimination (at least some of them do, anyway) and that forum is a safe haven for then to just relax, make friends, and talking about controversial issues head-on and not be afraid to address controversial issues in stuff they really like.

The forum? Equestria Daily. The controversial stuff? Can be anything, really, but sometimes it's even the stuff that gathered us there in the first place: My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

http://www.equestriaforums.com/

Don't think a little girl's show CAN be controversial?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2CRjPO73Dg

FYI, this was a censored scene available on iTunes, because the gray pegasus was deemed offensive to those who had mentally disabled friends and family. Yeah. :/

So yeah, anti-intellectual discussion, and disrespectful behavior is pretty much not welcome there, and I, for one, am glad for that.
 

loudestmute

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Oct 21, 2008
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Let's compare and contrast a little, shall we?

Case 1) Rush Limbaugh, 'Merican talk radio hound who routinely compares giving females equal standing in culture to the Nazi regime, made some disparaging remarks about a female law school student arguing before Congress for the medical and financial needs for birth control to be covered by health insurance programs. An apology was issued after his sponsors started walking out. The response from his contemporaries has been universally "Why did he have to use those words?"

Case 2) Bakhtanian uses language waaaaaaaaay more emotionally scarring than that of a blowhard radio personality towards someone he's supposed to be helping, then proceeds to say that his words are valid because, well, everyone else has been doing this for years now. An apology was issued after he had been called out on his offensive behavior by various gaming news sites. The response from his contemporaries has been a mix between "Why is this even an issue?" and "You got a problem with this, go play something else."

I guess the part that really puzzles me in this whole matter is this: The gaming industry has built itself around regular advances in technology. Most of the critically acclaimed titles from the past three to five years have been challenging the conventional notions of what should be expected when you pick up a controller. So why do we allow ourselves to not only enshrine, but vigorously defend a part of the surrounding culture? What sort of cognitive disconnect is required to demand regular changes in the formula from Capcom's fighting games, and then antagonize anyone who spots room for improvement in the surrounding community?

Gaming is built on change. Why is the gaming fandom intent on resisting change?
 

Francisco Aguirre

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Feb 13, 2012
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I agree with you, and everything you have said. That's not free speech and I'd be happy to support you argument, or stake someone who's too suborn to admit that there wrong. But I also want to bring up something to ponder on. Racism is wrong, but even the slightest mention of someone being racist seems to bring down the hammer of justice just a bit too early. Mainly RE5. No one complained when RE4 came out, and being Mexican, I can understand why we didn't get offended. Mainly because we have a long stained history with the Spanish, so were okay with it. But I think the issue of racism is getting more and more sensitive.
 

sapphireofthesea

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GaltarDude1138 said:
I don't dig out this clip often, but when I do...

[youtube=whytAReStUQ&feature=related




...it's usually warranted.

OT: I agree on the position that "rape" should never be used as a synonym for "failure", but I feel it's pretty well-ingrained in not only the annoying 13-year old population, but also in older-age gamers as well. I don't know if we'll ever get rid of it.[/QUOTE]


I can't begin to describe how fitting that clip was (and it reminded me of one of the best movies ever).

As for the topic, I grew up in the Caribbean. While woman effectively don't play videogames in the island I grew up in, the gaming community was always happy to welcome anyone in and have a good time. So I haven't really come across this mentality that anyone, appart from a dribbler*, would fundamentally be of a lower playing class.
So yea, news to me and bullshit to his line of logic. Maybe he has a confined circle for which eliminating deliberately hurtful -isms would damage them, but the wider community I know, while having fun with bashing every (including oneself) would never intentionally aim to insult or hurt someone with -isms or anything else. Tense, determined players we were, cutthroat yep, in anyway inclined to consider someone inferior, never.


*We had a few slower learners in our circle of players but they were excillent people and did do well. But there was one, only one, who made a clear and definite effort to completely ignore anything we said, anything even a scantioned judge said, in favor of his opinion, even when he himself knew he was missing something. That my friends is what I call a dribbler, and while I always had fun with the slower people and had endles patience, I completely gave up on that one guy on the ground that if he didn't want to listen I was wasting my breath.
 

el_kabong

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Mar 18, 2010
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illas said:
I agreed with Bob right up to the point of using "rape" as a descriptor.

In the standard gaming scenario, "rape" is not being used to describe what literally happened. Typically, is being used hyperbolically to describe the incident eg: in the case of a vicious, unjustifiable, penetrative assault. Criticising it on this level seems odd, since we don't complain about using "killed", "owned", "butchered" or "destroyed" in such a circumstance (and if one is interpreting it literally, murder is equally - if not more - serious than rape).

Furthermore, rape is not an intrinsically female-victim issue either. I would go as far as to suggest that one guy saying "I raped you" to another guy to be more a homosexual threat characterized by desires of non-gender-specific sexual dominance than a product of male-on-female rape being glamorised.
Pretty much 100 percent agreement on this. You may wish to argue that society as a whole has become more crass and more commonly uses extremely negative words, but that isn't necessarily sexism. Most people who use the term "rape" in the sense of colloquialism are just as likely to use it to describe themselves. For example, when forced to listen to music I find less then pleasurable, I may refer to it as "raping my ears". Is it a vulgar way to say that I dislike the music? Yes. Is it sexist? No. Could I be a little gentler about it? Sure, but where's the fun in that?

Not saying that it never is sexist...but it isn't always.
 

Tanis

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Aug 30, 2010
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If Capcom had any class that bearded fat-ass would have been kicked off the show.

But, hey, this IS Capcom we're talking about.
 

sapphireofthesea

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mandalorian2298 said:
Disclaimer: The first sentence or the post that follows it is not meant to be baiting. I am a professor of philosophy and this is a sincere statement of my feelings.

Some of the views expressed in this video hurt me on a deep emotional level. If it was just one man's views then I wouldn't give it much thought since mistakes happen and it's often very hard to see, admit and correct one's own mistake. However, the delusion in question seems to have spread over large portions of humanity, including some of our best and brightest (Movie Bob being an example for both), and I am starting to feel like a the last sane guy in the asylum.

The mistake I am talking about is:


Unlike saying proven objective truths (for example "Randomly attacking people on the street will not make you popular among the police officers."), expressing purely subjective opinions does not obligate other people to agree with you (for example, I believe that the answer to most of philosophical question can be found in one or more episodes of 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer', but I do not think that the fact Stanford didn't include that show in their curriculum makes Stanford's philosophy program inadequate.)


So far, I am sure that most of you are on board with me. However, for reasons that are entirely mysterious to me, most people believe that, if they wish it REALLY hard, their subjective opinions will MAGICALLY BECOME OBJECTIVE TRUTHS! Aalakazam!

For the betterment of the human race, I present you with a short list of things that DO NOT transmogrify your opinions into objective truths:

1. Shouting.
2. The fact that YOU really believe it to be true, despite the lack of conclusive evidence (unless you are being played by Kevin Costner).
3. The fact that you find the opposing opinion offensive does not make you right, it makes you small-minded (or else every racist, homophobe or fanatic of any kind would be a moral authority by virtue of insanity).
4. Equating the act of expressing an opinion that you disagree with or using an expression that you dislike (but which in itself is not meant as an actual threat against the life or well-being of another person) with an act of aggression does not make you extra sensitive; it makes you insane. (this seems to be stupidity du jour these days. As a method of reality check, I invite all of you 'words can hurt just as bad' people to go to find a rape victim and say to him/her: "What happened to you is terrible. It is just as bad as using 'rape' as a casual synonym for defeat.")

People do not need your permission to have or to express an opinion. If you think that they are wrong - challenge them. If you know them to be logically incorrect - prove it. If you can't but you are still bothered that they are allowed to freely speak their mind -

THEN
GROW
THE
*CENSORED FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THIS WORD EXISTS*
UP!!!

Mr. Psychology professor. I am aware that this was ment for the non-science crowd. However, being a scientist myself and in the interest of further enforcing the validity of your argument, please provide some references for the points you have made, otherwise you are at risk of finding your own statements fall victim to your line of logic.

I personally find your above, unsupported, statement flawed, without re-enforcement, and ignore-ant of the possibly of collective moralities playing a part in supporting a right or wrong ideal. I am no expert but I am aware of the contention in psychology surrounding the idea of morality. I would love to give references myself but it is late and it is not my field of study so I have no groundiing to make an informed search of the literature.
 

Shjade

Chaos in Jeans
Feb 2, 2010
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Diction minutiae opener: while it's not a friendly or positive term to use in any context, "rape" isn't a sexist term. It's not gender-oriented. I also don't think it'd be considered more pleasant to say you repeatedly gutted the enemy team with a your KA-BAR before shooting them in the head over and over again (being what you literally did in the game) than it is to simply say you raped them. Neither of these actions would be considered socially positive if they took place in the real world; I'm not sure I see why one is looked upon less well than the other. Yeah, I'm sure some people get upset when they hear someone say, "Dude, I totally raped him hard," but I'm betting those people would be equally upset by, say, "Dude, I totally shoved my fist through his skull and tore out his spine from the neck up" (why hello there, Mortal Kombat). How is one worse than the other, exactly? Or is the recommendation that players simply not talk about their gameplay at all?

More on topic: yeah, this kind of behavior is prevalent, and not great. One of the more "wtf" terms I recall from when I was playing various fighting games in the arcade is "Jewed." As a verb. As in, "Oh man I can't believe that super combo missed - you got so jewed!" I just had to look at the guy like, Really? Did you just say that? Was reminded of this when it came up again in a Mumble conversation while playing League of Legends a few days ago (MOBA community has an unfortunately high number of similarities to the fighting game community, mostly in the negative aspects). The speaker didn't seem to understand why I was disapproving of the usage.

Honestly though, I'd say it's more of an individual thing than a community one. In those arcade fighting groups I'd play with, maybe one or two people out of about twenty were abrasively vulgar. Likewise, that one guy in Mumble is the only one of the group who uses that kind of language. Point being, Aris' argument re: "This is the fighting game community" is bullshit. It's part of the fighting game community because those people are in it at the moment; it's not some inherent aspect of the community. The community won't be "lost" if that kind of trash talk suddenly evaporates. It's not an integral element of the thing. It's just crap. Now, I will say trash talk, as a concept, is an immutable part of that community. It's part of almost every competitive community I can think of; it's just the type of talk that changes.

Changing the type of trash talk common to the fighting game community won't change the community. It'll just make it less caustic to be around.
 

Zydrate

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I haven't liked Bob in several of his movie reviews, but I continue to generally enjoy his Big Picture videos.
And he was completely right on the money regarding this subject.
 

Imp_Emissary

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castlewise said:
I agree. Sexism or racism isn't defined by how you think so much as by your actions. I think if you make sexist jokes which cause women discomfort and grief then you are, by definition, sexist. Whether you think of yourself as sexist or not is a different story. Mediocre bad guys almost never think of themselves as bad guys.

On a different note: Its interesting to see how this matches up with your political correctness video. Its not that they are incompatible by any means. Its just that watching those two videos gives a sense of the sometimes narrow region in between being an ass and being politically incorrect.
I remember that episode. It was great.

On topic; why does Bob think we hate these episodes?

Oh right....a lot of us are gamers. Why must those bad stereotypes come from real places? Dark, dim, and evil places.