The Big Picture: Not Okay

Akio91

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A few things. First off, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended. Second off, TRASH TALK IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF NOT ONLY THE FIGHTING GAME COMMUNITY, BUT OF COMPETITIVE GAMING AS A WHOLE! I'm sure the woman involved knew that going in. Third, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended.
 

zehydra

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The only thing I really disagreed with Bob on this one (and I disagree with him on a number of things in this show), is his assertion that "Fairness" is not "Censorship". Or rather, that the justice system punishing people for using hate-speech is not "censorship".
 

Shjade

Chaos in Jeans
Feb 2, 2010
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zehydra said:
The only thing I really disagreed with Bob on this one (and I disagree with him on a number of things in this show), is his assertion that "Fairness" is not "Censorship". Or rather, that the justice system punishing people for using hate-speech is not "censorship".
But it isn't. Being punished for something you say isn't censorship; censorship prevents things from being said/heard in the first place.
 

ManInRed

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Gaming has become so ubiquitous the problems its community faces mirrors the problems all of society faces. That doesn't make these issues any less important to identify and discuss, but your naturally going to get gamers to be all defensive when you label it their problem and not just a problem in society.

So what of the fighting game community? Certainly a boys club among gaming groups, but having numerous interactions with them I cannot say misogyny is part of that culture. Offensive smack talk however, is very much a part of that culture. But there is a reason for this, that tied to the competitiveness of this culture. Every time you got an idiot like this shouting their mouth off, it draws attention to the fighting game community and encourages other people to join. The sort of competitive people that want to kick the ass of that jerk and everyone in the community like them.

This is not the first time it has happen, and it probably won't be the last time. But I would be really glad to see a ton of women getting competitive in the fighting community in response to this. Like a wrestling villain, these jerks are destined to lose to more intelligent and empathetic individuals, and it is usually at the hands of the people they try to offend. I would wager that is what the majority of the fighting game community would like to see. It has happened before after all, make it happen again.
 

zehydra

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Shjade said:
zehydra said:
The only thing I really disagreed with Bob on this one (and I disagree with him on a number of things in this show), is his assertion that "Fairness" is not "Censorship". Or rather, that the justice system punishing people for using hate-speech is not "censorship".
But it isn't. Being punished for something you say isn't censorship; censorship prevents things from being said/heard in the first place.
Which is exactly what the threat of punishment does.
If you can't say something for fear of being punished by law, then it's censorship.

Some will disagree with me on this, but we have laws and punishment not for justice, but to prevent crime from occurring in the first place.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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GaltarDude1138 said:
I don't dig out this clip often, but when I do...

[youtube=whytAReStUQ&feature=related




...it's usually warranted.

OT: I agree on the position that "rape" should never be used as a synonym for "failure", but I feel it's pretty well-ingrained in not only the annoying 13-year old population, but also in older-age gamers as well. I don't know if we'll ever get rid of it.[/QUOTE]
We are Jamaica, we have a bobsled team~

Anyway, hats off to you Bob. I enjoy a lot of TF2 myself, and as a female it can get frustrating at times. If I join a new server and use my mic, I'm bound to see about 5 friend invites when I log off. And if it's not creepers it's little 12 year olds telling me to suck their dick or get in the kitchen. It's not even original or amusing, it's just mindless grieving, and the only reason it's allowed to go on is there are enough who either remain passive or neutral to validate it.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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Akio91 said:
A few things. First off, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended. Second off, TRASH TALK IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF NOT ONLY THE FIGHTING GAME COMMUNITY, BUT OF COMPETITIVE GAMING AS A WHOLE! I'm sure the woman involved knew that going in. Third, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended.
Lol what? How old are you? Are you trying to troll or something?
 

Kapol

Watch the spinning tails...
May 2, 2010
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This is talking about the same community that has the game Leisure Suit Larry. Overall I do agree. The guy that the first half of the video was about was simply using a scapegoat to justify actions which really can't be justified. On top of scaring away potential female gamers from games and being proud of being a member of the 'group,' it also gives us all a bad black eye. It really helps justify the opinions of the opponents of games. The section who believe that kind of behavior is small but gets a lot of newstime. Just like the same thing happening in the rest of media and similar things.


But at the same time I don't like the double standard that exists for many remarks. You mentioned casual racism and sexism, but those exist on both sides of the fence. It just gets viewed differently. Now that comes from a large cultural difference not only between races, but genders. But it's still there. Like the fact a woman can say 'all men are pigs' without problems and normally are meant with agreement; but if a man were to say 'all women are sluts' which is essence the same thing (considering an entire gender as being focused on sexual actions, either leering or otherwise) then at best they're considered sexist. At worst they're sued. The same thing goes for racial tensions.

The common excuse for that is 'well this gender/race was oppressed for so long' or 'they still face negitive views they don't deserve.' That's true. But at the same time you can't really say we live in a truely equal society when there's still a large gap between what's acceptable for the two groups. There are racists in every race, and sexists in both genders. It isn't something exclusive to one group. Now should it be more acceptable for one group over another? I don't think so, but I can understand why it is.

Don't get me wrong. The slurs are stupid no matter where or who they come from. And in the gaming community, where these kinds of things happen often (though it mostly seems to be younger players or 'swearing teens' from my experiences), it's an issue that we really do need to address. But keeping that double standard in mind is important.
 

ReiverCorrupter

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mandalorian2298 said:
Disclaimer: The first sentence or the post that follows it is not meant to be baiting. I am a professor of philosophy and this is a sincere statement of my feelings.
You realize that stating that you're a professor of philosophy at the outset of your post is at best a non sequitur, and is likely to be construed as an argument ad hominem that your opinion is correct. I submit to you, sir, that your supposed disclaimer is itself an attempt to bait people. ;p

mandalorian2298 said:
The mistake I am talking about is:

Unlike saying proven objective truths (for example "Randomly attacking people on the street will not make you popular among the police officers."), expressing purely subjective opinions does not obligate other people to agree with you
How are you using the term 'objective'? The proposition "so-and-so holds such-and-such opinion" could very well be considered objectively true if it is a publicly accessible fact that the person in question holds the opinion in question. And what is a subjective opinion? Aren't opinions subjective by definition? If I believe that the moral truth is best expressed by Kant's Categorical Imperative, is that a subjective opinion?

Are you alluding to the descriptive/normative distinction? The descriptive fact that someone holds an opinion does not mean that said person should hold that opinion or that the rule expressed by the opinion has prescriptive force. Unless, of course, one accepts a version of moral relativism. But I frankly don't understand the point of moral relativism; why not just commit to moral anti-realism or non-cognitivism at that point?

mandalorian2298 said:
So far, I am sure that most of you are on board with me. However, for reasons that are entirely mysterious to me, most people believe that, if they wish it REALLY hard, their subjective opinions will MAGICALLY BECOME OBJECTIVE TRUTHS! Aalakazam!
If everyone became Nietzscheans we wouldn't have this problem. Largely because everyone would realize that the very thought of an objective moral truth is absurd.

mandalorian2298 said:
For the betterment of the human race, I present you with a short list of things that DO NOT transmogrify your opinions into objective truths: (snip)
I vaguely recall them telling us as much when I was in kindergarten. If it didn't sink in then, there isn't much chance of it happening now. I find it hilarious that we don't teach any courses on logic or critical thinking until college. Doesn't that just say it all?

mandalorian2298 said:
4. Equating the act of expressing an opinion that you disagree with or using an expression that you dislike (but which in itself is not meant as an actual threat against the life or well-being of another person) with an act of aggression does not make you extra sensitive; it makes you insane. (this seems to be stupidity du jour these days. As a method of reality check, I invite all of you 'words can hurt just as bad' people to go to find a rape victim and say to him/her: "What happened to you is terrible. It is just as bad as using 'rape' as a casual synonym for defeat.")
Couldn't have said it better myself. Society won't become better by conditioning people to whine and cry at the slightest offense. What you'll get is a society of whimpering idiots who think it is an act of violence to question someone's beliefs. People need to grow a thicker skin and a sense of humor.
 

Shjade

Chaos in Jeans
Feb 2, 2010
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zehydra said:
Shjade said:
zehydra said:
The only thing I really disagreed with Bob on this one (and I disagree with him on a number of things in this show), is his assertion that "Fairness" is not "Censorship". Or rather, that the justice system punishing people for using hate-speech is not "censorship".
But it isn't. Being punished for something you say isn't censorship; censorship prevents things from being said/heard in the first place.
Which is exactly what the threat of punishment does.
If you can't say something for fear of being punished by law, then it's censorship.

Some will disagree with me on this, but we have laws and punishment not for justice, but to prevent crime from occurring in the first place.
Discouragement != censorship. Yeah, laws and consequences for breaking them are intended to discourage criminal activity, but when that criminal activity happens anyway, what follows? Punishment applicable to the action. Whatever happened still happened.

Likewise, if you say some horrific offensive harmful thing and get punished for it, you haven't been censored. Whatever you said is still out there, particularly if it was written rather than spoken. It isn't blacked out or removed (unless there's a legal obligation to do so - libel etc.). No censorship took place.

If you really want to keep going with the comparison to crime, I'd liken censorship to a physical barricade that literally denies you the ability to break into someone's home to steal from them, rather than the penalty for breaking in and stealing things. You flat out can't do it, regardless of what the consequences might be if you could.
 

Harbinger_

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Sounds as if you were holding back on not yelling near the end there.

I don't quite understand the obsession with homosexuality and the desire to put it into every part of every media these days. Just because it's becoming an acknowledged part of society doesn't mean that it has to be shoe-horned into everything.

I don't hate homosexuals and I believe in equal rights but I find the act of homosexuality to be disgusting and repulsive and I don't like how mass media is shoving it in our faces. (Then again I don't like it when they show it with different genders either.)

I'm not sure if everyone (media) is just trying to be more 'in-depth', 'cutting edge' or 'thumb on the pulse of society' or if they all think that this is a cause that isn't being championed enough.

Once this is no longer such an issue I'd like these people to bring other issues that plague our nation such as poverty and crime and disease and maybe address those perhaps just as reverently.

It of course won't happen because those things don't do one thing that homosexuality does and that is be controversial. When it comes down to it people (media) wants things to sell and the best way to do that is to back something that is controversial regardless of how it is that way to begin with.
 

217not237

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Nov 9, 2011
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Thank god for you, Bob. This is your best video yet! I can really relate, since, as a homosexual, hearing "OMG fag, go get butt-fucked!" as a common term for "Damn it, I died," in Call of Duty certainly doesn't sit well with me. In fact, I think I might go eye for an eye one of these days. Fucking dick, go slap your girlfriend's tits! Yeah, how does that feel, random Call of Duty player?
 

Redlin5_v1legacy

Better Red than Dead
Aug 5, 2009
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canadamus_prime said:
Just because it's common doesn't mean it's any less wrong
I cannot agree with this more. If everyone suddenly started breaking into houses and setting them on fire it wouldn't make it any less wrong.

Popularity =/= Justification for ___ism
 

ReiverCorrupter

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sapphireofthesea said:
mandalorian2298 said:
Disclaimer: The first sentence or the post that follows it is not meant to be baiting. I am a professor of philosophy and this is a sincere statement of my feelings. (Snip)
Mr. Psychology professor.
See above.
sapphireofthesea said:
I am aware that this was meant for the non-science non-philosophical crowd.
Fixed.
sapphireofthesea said:
However, being a scientist myself and in the interest of further enforcing the validity of your argument, please provide some references for the points you have made, otherwise you are at risk of finding your own statements fall victim to your line of logic.
By it's very nature ethics is an a priori pursuit, so empirical data can't really serve as evidence like it does in the physical sciences. To demonstrate this one need only consider these two questions:

If we found that the majority of people in the middle ages thought homosexuality was wrong, does that make homosexuality wrong? If so, does homosexuality become permissible the moment the majority of people think it is permissible?

sapphireofthesea said:
I personally find your above, unsupported, statement flawed, without re-enforcement, and ignorant of the possibility of collective moralities playing a part in supporting a right or wrong ideal.
Come again?

sapphireofthesea said:
I am no expert but I am aware of the contention in psychology surrounding the idea of morality. I would love to give references myself but it is late and it is not my field of study so I have no grounding to make an informed search of the literature.
Psychologists don't study right and wrong, they study the human mind. I imagine that morality, qua psychological/sociological phenomenon, is a very problematic concept for psychologists. But that's more a reflection of the complexity of human behavior than moral truth.
 

NaramSuen

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Jun 8, 2010
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If only we had some kind of rule named after a geek icon that told us how to behave in situations like competitive gaming.

Great video Bob, keep calling out these troglodytes who need to be brought into the twenty-first century.
 

Awexsome

Were it so easy
Mar 25, 2009
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People can throw around dictionary definitions and technicalities of the term, "rape" all day but it won't change the reason and meaning behind why the cruder gamers actually use the term so casually.

It's all meant and rooted as a reference to homosexual slurs or sexist slurs implying their foe is gay or a woman and therefore inferior.

None of the people who willfully want to think or explain their way around it otherwise will change that.

As for the sexist discussion it pains me to see that there are sectors of the fighting community that never saw this as a big deal, or even went right to victim blaming. It really is a big issue and it's not going to change by hoping people will grow out of it.
 

Davroth

The shadow remains cast!
Apr 27, 2011
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I would suggest that we all just stop being offended by words, and turn our collective heads towards more important things, but noone wants to hear that.

I'm sick of political correctness, and this is part why. At least if everyone speaks their mind, we know who we are really dealing with. Does anyone think sexism or homophobia would disappear if it was universally shunned upon in the gaming community?

I don't. We would just not see it anymore. Let them run free and get exposed for the horrible idiots that they are. We, in turn, can then decide how to treat them.
 

MorganL4

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May 1, 2008
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I agree with 99.9% of what bob said and showed there, sexsim is equal to racism and homophobia. It is a simple fact that many people struggle to comprehend.

That said, the Waterbuffalo's image, to me brought up the idea of the "boys club" And in that respect I disagree, men AND women, by our very nature ( im talking straight men and women here, though gay people I guarantee do that same thing) are going to objectify the opposite sex. That is we find the other gender attractive and we need to have social outlets where we can allow that objectification take place...... AND NO IM NOT BEING SEXIST HERE Women have the same right and same desire get together and talk about David Beckham and Brad Pitt ( those are examples)and what "depraved" things they would like to do to them, THE SAME WAY us guys want to objectify Angelina Jolie or Posh Spice.

Now, what this street fighter guy did was completely inexcusable and he should be called out for it. Same with Rush Limbaugh and his calling a woman trying to get her health concerns addressed a slutty prostitute. Things like that ARE WRONG. Trying to exert ones superiority over others on moral grounds ( excluding the denouncing of murder, rape etc....) or for sexual reasons like this is, horrible. But we still do need outlets where we can safely discuss our attraction to the opposite sex in what would normally be considered impolite, But it should remain amongst a circle of friends and should never reach a public forum like what Bob was addressing here,.

Basically men need to objectify women women need to objectify men, because we need to have sexual partners for the purpose of propagating the species, and it is healthy for that to happen amongst a select group of people.
 

him over there

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Dec 17, 2011
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Awexsome said:
People can throw around dictionary definitions and technicalities of the term, "rape" all day but it won't change the reason and meaning behind why the cruder gamers actually use the term so casually.

It's all meant and rooted as a reference to homosexual slurs or sexist slurs implying their foe is gay or a woman and therefore inferior.

None of the people who willfully want to think or explain their way around it otherwise will change that.

As for the sexist discussion it pains me to see that there are sectors of the fighting community that never saw this as a big deal, or even went right to victim blaming. It really is a big issue and it's not going to change by hoping people will grow out of it.
Or y'know, it implies that they were raped, which could happen to anybody and happens because of being overpowered and degraded regardless of sex or orientation. Doesn't it seem to make a lot more sense that people say "yah got raped" because they are trying to insult and degrade you and people who've been raped have suffered traumatic events at the hands of someone who overpowered and wrecked them as a person?