The Big Picture: Not Okay

[superspartan004]

I tend to avoid and criticize pro-gaming, and this is one of the major reasons for doing so. With the rare exception, the personality of most "Professional Gamers" can be summed up in the term douchebag.

These are the same kind of people that tend to get thrown out of team sports, precisely because no one wants to be playing with them, because they either make the rest of the team look bad by proxy, or end up blaming the team for their failure.

In overall classlessness, this is like when Tom Brady's wife blamed the rest of the Patriots team for her husband not winning the Super Bowl this year.

I couldn't disagree more, That's a very big over generalization, as a big part of the MLG Halo community, the majority of pro players couldn't be nicer people.

Like how "StrongSide" bought $200 worth of Microsoft points for giveaway on his stream, or how most players run community games to give fans the chance to play with them, etc. Many I have participated in and gotten the chance to talk to them. They have always been very humble.

and although I'm not part of the Starcraft community, I've heard and seen moments where they don't take any crap lightly even from pro players and jerks get kicked out quickly.

 

[Britisheagle]

Actually really enjoyed this video and must say I agree with pretty much everything that was said.

However I am one to occasionally use rape as a way of describing defeat and as such will try opt for another term from now on - perhaps "damn we got our asses kicked".
Yeah that works. Hopefully other people will start to do the same as they realise that what they are saying could be offensive to others.

Then again that's what the mute option should be used for when playing online. If everyone muted them no one could get offended and hopefully said person would eventually shut up.

 

[t3h br0th3r]

Disclaimer: The first sentence or the post that follows it is not meant to be baiting. I am a professor of philosophy and this is a sincere statement of my feelings.

Some of the views expressed in this video hurt me on a deep emotional level. If it was just one man's views then I wouldn't give it much thought since mistakes happen and it's often very hard to see, admit and correct one's own mistake. However, the delusion in question seems to have spread over large portions of humanity, including some of our best and brightest (Movie Bob being an example for both), and I am starting to feel like a the last sane guy in the asylum.

The mistake I am talking about is:


Unlike saying proven objective truths (for example "Randomly attacking people on the street will not make you popular among the police officers."), expressing purely subjective opinions does not obligate other people to agree with you (for example, I believe that the answer to most of philosophical question can be found in one or more episodes of 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer', but I do not think that the fact Stanford didn't include that show in their curriculum makes Stanford's philosophy program inadequate.)


So far, I am sure that most of you are on board with me. However, for reasons that are entirely mysterious to me, most people believe that, if they wish it REALLY hard, their subjective opinions will MAGICALLY BECOME OBJECTIVE TRUTHS! Aalakazam!

For the betterment of the human race, I present you with a short list of things that DO NOT transmogrify your opinions into objective truths:

1. Shouting.
2. The fact that YOU really believe it to be true, despite the lack of conclusive evidence (unless you are being played by Kevin Costner).
3. The fact that you find the opposing opinion offensive does not make you right, it makes you small-minded (or else every racist, homophobe or fanatic of any kind would be a moral authority by virtue of insanity).
4. Equating the act of expressing an opinion that you disagree with or using an expression that you dislike (but which in itself is not meant as an actual threat against the life or well-being of another person) with an act of aggression does not make you extra sensitive; it makes you insane. (this seems to be stupidity du jour these days. As a method of reality check, I invite all of you 'words can hurt just as bad' people to go to find a rape victim and say to him/her: "What happened to you is terrible. It is just as bad as using 'rape' as a casual synonym for defeat.")

People do not need your permission to have or to express an opinion. If you think that they are wrong - challenge them. If you know them to be logically incorrect - prove it. If you can't but you are still bothered that they are allowed to freely speak their mind -

THEN
GROW
THE
*CENSORED FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THIS WORD EXISTS*
UP!!!

EDITED on 3.7.2012. 9.14h
5. The fact that many people share your opinion does not prove your opinion to an objective truth (if you disagree, then please prove me wrong. Gather a herd of people who also don't believe me and win the lottery 10 times in a row by making everyone share your belief that you are going to win.

Mr. Psychology professor. I am aware that this was meant for the non-science crowd. However, being a scientist myself and in the interest of further enforcing the validity of your argument, please provide some references for the points you have made, otherwise you are at risk of finding your own statements fall victim to your line of logic.

I personally find your above, unsupported, statement flawed, without reinforcement, and ignorant of the possibly of collective moralities playing a part in supporting a right or wrong ideal. I am no expert but I am aware of the contention in psychology surrounding the idea of morality. I would love to give references myself but it is late and it is not my field of study so I have no grounding to make an informed search of the literature.

First of all, I am not a psychology professor, I am a philosophy professor. The only reason that I have mentioned that in my post has been to explain why I care deeply about people making the mistake that I described in my post. The validity of my objection should be judged solely on it's coherency and the quality of my reasoning. I do not believe that my academic title, by itself, makes my reasoning more or less sound. For the same reason, I see no need to make a reference to other people's work in order to strengthen my case. Non quis, sed quid. (it doesn't matter who said something, it only matters what they said)

As for collective moralities, I believe that, while it is true that many groups of people share certain moral beliefs or whole moral systems, I do not believe that an opinion, moral or otherwise, becomes more valid simply because more people believe in it. Just because something IS does not prove that it OUGHT to be (Hume's Law). The fact that many people believe in something does not prove their belief to be either correct or moral (the moral system shared by the majority of Germans during Third Reich is a commonly quoted example).

In fact, that whole "many people sharing an opinion make that opinion true, will make a nice rule 5 for my original post:

5. The fact that many people share your opinion does not prove your opinion to an objective truth (if you disagree, then please prove me wrong. Gather a herd of people who also don't believe me and win the lottery 10 times in a row by making everyone share your belief that you are going to win.

So if i am reading your correctly here prof, you are saying Bob is in the wrong for attempting to make a mass personal appeal to his viewers in the hopes of getting them to stop using the term rape where owned or pwned could be used, because doing so assumes his subjective postion is right?

are you trying to say that sexism, racism, and homophobia are not objectively wrong and, therefore, trying to fight them though changing public opinion is somehow wrong?

I really hope i am misreading you here prof

 

[Faerillis]

There are actual people that try to justify this?..
Ok maybe I colloquially use the term 'raped face' to signify an almost embarrassing victory when talking to gamers who are close friends and I probably shouldn't (and I would never speak like that with anyone who went through the horrendous trauma of rape), but trying to justify actual discrimination is just fucking stupid.

 

[Togs]

I find myself torn here, on one level people like Aris Whatshisname are repugnant manchildren but then the underlying train of thought of "dont say anything that could offend someone" I find mealy mouthed and just as repugnant.

 

[Dangerious P. Cats]

I love you Bob. This episode was brilliant!

 

[Carnagath]

In this topic: Immature people that are offended by words online, spoken by competitive players in the heat of the moment and almost always without actually meaning what they are saying. Learn to ignore people you don't like, every game allows you to do it for a reason. Inject some perspective into your lives. The internet is not your life, nor are videogames. Your family, work, friends, relationships, those are your life. If you are going to rebel against something, make it something real, not something some 17 year old said when they lost to you at some videogame. Grow up.

 

[mechanixis]

Remember people, be politically correct and watch your language. Because that is what gaming should be about.

Captain, scanners are coming up with high liberal hubris.
Great mother of the respectocracy!

You know, for most of us, "don't be an asshole" isn't some kind of huge imposition.

 

[Neaco]

Remember people, be politically correct and watch your language. Because that is what gaming should be about.

Captain, scanners are coming up with high liberal hubris.
Great mother of the respectocracy!

You know, for most of us, "don't be an asshole" isn't some kind of huge imposition.

because when people are in direct competition of a violent nature, the important thing is being polite. when a game is over, yeah, act civil. but i cant exactly hold it against someone trying to bring down his opponent with words, demoralizing is just another tactic.

 

[SiskoBlue]

Good vid Bob. I said the exact same thing elsewhere when I heard about this. My main point being this ridiculous notion of "culture" as some kind of excuse for terrible individual behaviour.

The only way I can play devil's advocate to this is admit that as humans we all have biases we probably shouldn't, and occassionally those biases are going to come out. But as you said this is "NOT OKAY", and we should call people out on it.... Every single time it happens.

If they try to hide behind a false wall of "but that's the culture" then berate them for a) refusing to take individual responsibility for what they said b) ask them to provide any other justification, evidence or proper reason for their attitude other an "because that's how it is" and c) call them lazy cowards for blindly following what they think the herd thinks while inferring they don't necessarily agree with it.

That last point, that's what annoys me most about Barkhanis' statement. HE has a hateful, misogynistic view of women. But rather than admit that in himself, he projects it onto everyone else in his sub-culture. Implying HE's not sexist, it's everybody else and he's just reluctantly playing along. He was a bully who got cornered and tried to wriggle out of it. Not okay.

Bob, don't feel you have to justify when you're outraged. So far you've only every "ranted" when there's clearly a desparate need for people to speak up. Let's hope the world gets better and we can have more whacky TV series and less necessary protest.

 

[Akio91]

A few things. First off, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended. Second off, TRASH TALK IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF NOT ONLY THE FIGHTING GAME COMMUNITY, BUT OF COMPETITIVE GAMING AS A WHOLE! I'm sure the woman involved knew that going in. Third, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended.

Lol what? How old are you? Are you trying to troll or something?

I'm 20 years old, and have been a part of the Fighting Game Community since I was 12. We've ALWAYS talked shit to each other. Yes, sometimes is goes too far, but we shut each other up in combat, and didn't let people White Knight for us (which is exactly what's happening here). It's comments like yours that show just how little anyone who's commenting on this actually knows.

Just a reminder, I agree with Bob and Aris is a piece of shit.

 

[copycatalyst]

Well put, Bob. Especially liked the closing.

 

[idodo35]

WOW this thing was terible... looked it up and you are a 100% right
btw aperatly there were alot of people who went looking for it thanks to your video there were at least 10 comments about you... way to go for raising awareness!

 

[bravetoaster]

I've never understood why people think the right to free speech means they're allowed to be an arsehole to people without consequence.

It depends on what kind of consequences you're talking about. I feel like Bob was implying that there should be legal consequences for speaking like a @#$%head, in which case, he's 100% wrong--free speech exists to protect everyone (even human garbage) from being arrested, etc. for what they say, so long as their words aren't inciting violence against others or causing physical harm. If by consequences you mean having sponsors abandon them, have decent human beings shun them and/or tell them off, then I fully agree. We don't have to play games with racist and sexist scum, nor should we (unless you really want them to continue existing or feeling as if they have any place in society, much less our gaming communities).

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Post 238 I have a more full response to Bob's piece.

No it shouldn't, and I do somewhat agree with bob (I have a leftist degree from a leftist uni). But Bob should understand, that if he tries to force everyone to hold his liberal opinions, it is not going to work with the whole anonymous online gaming crowd.

How's he 'forcing' his opinion. He's publishing a response to published comments. You're free to agree or disagree with him, but what reason do you have for doing so? What do we have to gain when we have people who disparage women for participating while being women?

What do we have to gain when we have people who disparage women for participating while being women without people like Bob calling them out?

I'm not for the intolerance, I've tried to shut it down in games I have been in, vote people out etc. It is foolish to think this liberal can get rid of it though, because to get rid of it requires that we each improve, and never make jokes or comments like this--which some people will just flat out reject.

Not everyone is of the liberal left, and Bob should be able to work that out.

 

[Uber Waddles]

Overall, I like your points. There are certainly some points I dont see eye to eye on, mostly because realistically they won't change or aren't something that bad in the first place For example: you will not stop people from saying 'you got raped' in games. It sucks that it wont happen, but its just like people saying 'thats gay' for something stupid. And, for both cases, I dont see it as a swipe against rape victims or homosexuals, its just a word that has a stigma attached to it (which is unfortunate for 'gay', but not everyone is tolerant) thats used in conjunction with something not so pleasant. Is it bad? Yes. Does it tear us down as a culture? Yes. Will it change? Unfortunately, no.

Is your argument then that beause we can't change something that's wrong, we shouldn't acknowledge that it'swrong?

Overall, I like your points. There are certainly some points I dont see eye to eye on, mostly because realistically they won't change or aren't something that bad in the first place For example: you will not stop people from saying 'you got raped' in games. It sucks that it wont happen, but its just like people saying 'thats gay' for something stupid. And, for both cases, I dont see it as a swipe against rape victims or homosexuals, its just a word that has a stigma attached to it (which is unfortunate for 'gay', but not everyone is tolerant) thats used in conjunction with something not so pleasant. Is it bad? Yes. Does it tear us down as a culture? Yes. Will it change? Unfortunately, no.

Not with that attitude, it won't. If people accept "Oh, that's just how it is," then... no, it won't.

If you see someone use "OH MAN HE JUST GOT *RAPED*" or "quit being so GAY dude," tell them to stop. Have some courage.

I'll tackle these both at once. Not at all, and I think I really miscommunicated what I wanted to get across with my message. First off, I don't stand for the use of those words. I dont use them, and I encourage everyone I know not to use them. But the funny thing about that is, when coupled up against strangers, most don't give a flying damn.

Like I go on to say later in the arguement, the community is fractured. People don't care how their actions make us look. You cant change people who are indignant. And this is part of a greater societal change. Most people have accepted that "words are words" (usually people who are not victims to them). And as such, freely spout off words that would not be acceptable. Imagine how many times you have seen the N word, C word, fag, gay, raped, and jew (as a derogatory word) in the last 5 years. The usage rate is alarming, but trending. Its a greater societal thing, and thats not going to change.

A few points Bob made I did not entirely see eye to eye on. I overall loved the episode, but certain points were not fleshed out as much as I anticipated. Yes, I do personally see those words as upsetting. And I perhaps misphrased. Most people, for one reason or another, do not. And without that, you're not going to see change. You see an increase in foul language because it has become socially and culturally acceptable, and (in my opinion atleast), because of spread of online gaming as a form of entertainment. Imagine being 13 years old, on the Xbox, absorbing everything unruley charachters are saying. Trust me, they would know a lot more now than I did then. I can change that for my family, if and when I have them, but not for society as a whole.

 

[xdiesp]

You have to remember this. The ones exploiting any stereotype, any minority, don't expect to be fought back. What they count on, is that they're the dominant party out there. So rise and scare them shitless, because yes, between you and them it's them feeling alone when faced to an angry guy.

 

[Susan Arendt]

I think some folks in this thread aren't fully aware of what Aris did. This went beyond trash talking, it went beyond friendly competition. He held a camera on a girl and sexually harassed her, and when she told him to stop, he said she had to put up with it because he was her coach and it was in the rules that she had to do anything he told her to.

Trash talking your buddies is great, it's part of the fun, and nobody is suggesting it should go away. But making someone feel worthless and afraid, because you find it fun? There's no defending that.

 

[Shjade]

Remember people, be politically correct and watch your language. Because that is what gaming should be about.

Captain, scanners are coming up with high liberal hubris.
Great mother of the respectocracy!

You know, for most of us, "don't be an asshole" isn't some kind of huge imposition.

because when people are in direct competition of a violent nature, the important thing is being polite.

Playing a game, even a game that depicts violence, isn't a violent competition. Guys talking serious shit to one another in the middle of, say, a boxing match, or on the line in football, or something like that - sure, yeah, pretty much anything goes. 'Cause I'm sure as hell not going to try to get between them and ask them to speak nicely to each other.

Playing a videogame is a completely different situation. It's not much to ask people to behave in a more civil fashion there. Will it happen? Probably not.