The Big Picture: Not Okay

[longboardfan]

I am confused. You said we're winning. What are we winning? How, and by who's standards. It sure seems like for every Jack Thompson slapdown, there's another 10 popup to carry on the anti-gamer cause. Then there was sopa, and acta, and pipa, and etc. Who's winning what now? And then there's the media where games caused the death's in Norway. yeah.

And regarding this guy. Who is this person again? Why are games on tv? And wasn't there any editing involved? Or is this another one of those terrible reality tv shows designed to show off the worst of humanity for ratings?

 

[ablac]

Can i start with BOOM!!

Thank you bob, it might just draw you some more traffic, probably less then pc gaming is dead but still probably quite hefty. I feel i agree with pretty much everything and have nothing to add.

I think the PC gaming is dead stuff was mostly people mis interpreting the title and heading straight to the comments. While Bob says some pretty stupid and discriminatory stuff he has the moral high ground here and he is completely correct. When he is right he is a damn good man to get behind.

 

[ablac]

I am confused. You said we're winning. What are we winning? How, and by who's standards. It sure seems like for every Jack Thompson slapdown, there's another 10 popup to carry on the anti-gamer cause. Then there was sopa, and acta, and pipa, and etc. Who's winning what now? And then there's the media where games caused the death's in Norway. yeah.

And regarding this guy. Who is this person again? Why are games on tv? And wasn't there any editing involved? Or is this another one of those terrible reality tv shows designed to show off the worst of humanity for ratings?

SOPA was anti internet not anti gaming as were the others. We are winning because the courts are siding with sense rather than those ridiculous clowns.

 

[ablac]

Remember people, be politically correct and watch your language. Because that is what gaming should be about.

Captain, scanners are coming up with high liberal hubris.
Great mother of the respectocracy!

You know, for most of us, "don't be an asshole" isn't some kind of huge imposition.

because when people are in direct competition of a violent nature, the important thing is being polite.

Playing a game, even a game that depicts violence, isn't a violent competition. Guys talking serious shit to one another in the middle of, say, a boxing match, or on the line in football, or something like that - sure, yeah, pretty much anything goes. 'Cause I'm sure as hell not going to try to get between them and ask them to speak nicely to each other.

Playing a videogame is a completely different situation. It's not much to ask people to behave in a more civil fashion there. Will it happen? Probably not.

Not even that. Just because you are in competition doesnt mean you have a right to forego respect and decency. Its not any better on a pitch, in a ring or with a controller in your hand than it is any where else. Its also poor sportsmanship and it degrades the respectability of the sport.

 

[Lilani]

A few things. First off, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended. Second off, TRASH TALK IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF NOT ONLY THE FIGHTING GAME COMMUNITY, BUT OF COMPETITIVE GAMING AS A WHOLE! I'm sure the woman involved knew that going in. Third, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended.

Lol what? How old are you? Are you trying to troll or something?

I'm 20 years old, and have been a part of the Fighting Game Community since I was 12. We've ALWAYS talked shit to each other. Yes, sometimes is goes too far, but we shut each other up in combat, and didn't let people White Knight for us (which is exactly what's happening here). It's comments like yours that show just how little anyone who's commenting on this actually knows.

Just a reminder, I agree with Bob and Aris is a piece of shit.

You can stop saying "Aris is a piece of shit," I kinda get the message.

The way you talk about it, it sounded like you're defending the use of slurs. I get there's a difference between trash talk and slurs, but come on. I'm sure she did know there was trash talking going in, but I'm sure she also didn't expect the trash talking to single her out as a female and thus inferior. Is it also alright to call black people the N-word? Is it alright to call hispanics spics? Last I checked Bob, wasn't saying all trash talk is bad. He said sexual harassment and going completely out of your way to single out someone and make someone feel uncomfortable, inferior, or like a total piece of shit was bad.

 

[Akio91]

I think some folks in this thread aren't fully aware of what Aris did. This went beyond trash talking, it went beyond friendly competition. He held a camera on a girl and sexually harassed her, and when she told him to stop, he said she had to put up with it because he was her coach and it was in the rules that she had to do anything he told her to.

Trash talking your buddies is great, it's part of the fun, and nobody is suggesting it should go away. But making someone feel worthless and afraid, because you find it fun? There's no defending that.

That's the point I've been trying to make, and that's why I felt Bob went a little too far with this video.

Perfect example: I play fighters will almost exclusively African-American (like all fighters, mirite? xD), so we throw around the "dreaded N-word" pretty casually. Occasionally some white kids game with us, and we don't get mad when they use the word, since we're in a relaxed environment where all kinds of trash talk is accepted. That, and, that word doesn't bother us at all.

Once again, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended in the slightest.

 

[Akio91]

A few things. First off, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended. Second off, TRASH TALK IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF NOT ONLY THE FIGHTING GAME COMMUNITY, BUT OF COMPETITIVE GAMING AS A WHOLE! I'm sure the woman involved knew that going in. Third, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended.

Lol what? How old are you? Are you trying to troll or something?

I'm 20 years old, and have been a part of the Fighting Game Community since I was 12. We've ALWAYS talked shit to each other. Yes, sometimes is goes too far, but we shut each other up in combat, and didn't let people White Knight for us (which is exactly what's happening here). It's comments like yours that show just how little anyone who's commenting on this actually knows.

Just a reminder, I agree with Bob and Aris is a piece of shit.

You can stop saying "Aris is a piece of shit," I kinda get the message.

The way you talk about it, it sounded like you're defending the use of slurs. I get there's a difference between trash talk and slurs, but come on. I'm sure she did know there was trash talking going in, but I'm sure she also didn't expect the trash talking to single her out as a female and thus inferior. Is it also alright to call black people the N-word? Is it alright to call hispanics spics? Last I checked Bob, wasn't saying all trash talk is bad. He said sexual harassment and going completely out of your way to single out someone and make someone feel uncomfortable, inferior, or like a total piece of shit was bad.

I'm mad that we posted this at the same time. xD

And yes, I do defend the use of slurs depending on the environment. Just look at my last post.

 

[PhiMed]

"verbal violence"

...

smh

...

God, we are such a weak, pathetic people. When we are overrun and our civilization collapses, we will deserve it.

 

[similar.squirrel]

Disinfection via sunlight is indeed the only way to cleanse these weird, sweaty Fauxspergers creeps. I wonder how long before the medium becomes free of this particular taint..

 

[Dastardly]

Not Okay

Bob takes on nerd sexism.

Watch Video

Welcome to the Age of Distraction. We no longer have to confront issues, because there are plenty of other things we can do.

Time was, if there was a problem like this, it was a showstopper. Everyone was surrounded by the issue and bombarded with the issue until it was dealt with. It was a boulder in the path that demanded removal. Now? Hell, it's the internet. There's not just one or two tubes to clog with your stupid boulder, it's a whole series of them.

The cause for this phenomenon? We've extended middle school into the adult world. We have so many ways to dodge responsibility that we never learn it. Let me share something from my middle school band classes:

- Student plays a passage badly, because they didn't practice.
- Student blames the instrument or the music for the mistake, and not lack of effort.
- Next time, student plays it softer (or just fakes it) to hide the mistake.
- Mistake gets worse due to timid playing, and gets harder to fix due to repetition.
- Student tries even harder to hide the mistake.
- Mistake gets worse due to... etc.

Now, from a middle schooler? Hey, that's normal. At this age, they're discovering that you, as an adult, are imperfect. They're focusing on your mistakes to distract themselves from their own. And failing to confront the mistake makes it worse, but that's where we come in and teach them...

...except, as a culture, we don't. And this same behavior shows up in the Man-Children of grown-up gaming (and elsewhere).

If the dog shits on the carpet, you don't just cover it with a paper towel and declare, "Mission accomplished!" You confront the problem, correct the problem, and then work to prevent the problem in the future. And you recognize that the dog will not do this himself, either.

 

[Lilani]

I'm mad that we posted this at the same time. xD

And yes, I do defend the use of slurs depending on the environment. Just look at my last post.

If that's the kind of behavior you will stand up for, then please, don't try to act like you're above Aris or have better standards than he does. Because you don't. Embrace what you do for what it is--bullying. Bullies dehumanize and explicitly try to hurt people for fun, and that's what slurs are. And if that's what you want the fighting community to consist of, then don't insult the rest of us by sugar coating it or acting like it's not as bad as we think. Because it is as bad as we think, and you will deserve every bit of criticism you get.

 

[370999]

I thought this was a rather poor episode.

When I first saw the title it seemed like Bob was going to talk about what form sexism took in nerd culture, what it looked like and why, etc.

Instead he told us that sexism was wrong. That is both so condescending and lazy to produce a video on that I can't imagine how he could justify it. Bob does this for his living and this is what he came up with?

Look it is a laudable sentiment which most of us would agree but it seems pointless to say sexism is bad because the vast majority of individuals on this forum would (hopefully) already know it and if they don't Bob has said nothing to make people change their minds at all.

Honestly this seems like well meaning fourteen year old stuff. It would be like having an episode telling me that "Blacks are people too!" in that it doesn't really do any real deep thinking on the issue.

 

[Panorama]

Can i start with BOOM!!

Thank you bob, it might just draw you some more traffic, probably less then pc gaming is dead but still probably quite hefty. I feel i agree with pretty much everything and have nothing to add.

I think the PC gaming is dead stuff was mostly people mis interpreting the title and heading straight to the comments. While Bob says some pretty stupid and discriminatory stuff he has the moral high ground here and he is completely correct. When he is right he is a damn good man to get behind.

oh yeah is correct, i wasn't agruing that, it was just i remember the pc gaming being dead was very popular (not always in positive way), yeah it was interesting and i wasn't aware of this happening till he pointed it out. Plus woot 333 posts half the devil, and my locker number at work.

 

[Lilani]

But where I get nervous is where Bob seems to be saying that there is no private place for attitudes or ideas that the general public finds offensive, only the public sphere where it comes right out of the gate to get immediately pelted with fruit for its intrinsic wrongness.

I don't remember Bob saying anything like that. I remember him saying something like this, but I believe the reason he took umbrage with it was because the claim behind it was that the Internet and the gaming community are these "last private places," which is total bullshit. They aren't private. They are public, and there are women there. You want to make a man cave and talk with your man friends about how you want the girl at the corner store to show her tits? Fine. Whatever. Be pigs amongst yourselves. But when you start treating real women like that, then it's gone too far.

 

[Akio91]

I'm mad that we posted this at the same time. xD

And yes, I do defend the use of slurs depending on the environment. Just look at my last post.

If that's the kind of behavior you will stand up for, then please, don't try to act like you're above Aris or have better standards than he does. Because you don't. Embrace what you do for what it is--bullying. Bullies dehumanize and explicitly try to hurt people for fun, and that's what slurs are. And if that's what you want the fighting community to consist of, then don't insult the rest of us by sugar coating it or acting like it's not as bad as we think. Because it is as bad as we think, and you will deserve every bit of criticism you get.

I'm gonna assume you didn't read my post like I said. *shrug* Your loss. Stay mad.

 

[Lilani]

I'm mad that we posted this at the same time. xD

And yes, I do defend the use of slurs depending on the environment. Just look at my last post.

If that's the kind of behavior you will stand up for, then please, don't try to act like you're above Aris or have better standards than he does. Because you don't. Embrace what you do for what it is--bullying. Bullies dehumanize and explicitly try to hurt people for fun, and that's what slurs are. And if that's what you want the fighting community to consist of, then don't insult the rest of us by sugar coating it or acting like it's not as bad as we think. Because it is as bad as we think, and you will deserve every bit of criticism you get.

I'm gonna assume you didn't read my post like I said. *shrug* Your loss. Stay mad.

Then tell me what parts I missed. I got "Aris is a piece of shit" and that you agree with Bob, but somehow that leaves room for defending slurs which doesn't make sense in my book.

 

[maninahat]

What the spluttering fuck was that coach on about?
"Asking for fighting games to be without sexual harrassment is like asking for basketball to lack a basket ball."
Yeah, sure. I agree, it is utterly impossible to operate a gamepad without first honking a woman's tits. Next they'll be expecting people to play chess without the banjo solos. It can't be done!

 

[CrazyGirl17]

Well-said, Bob. The sooner we loose these anti-_________ feelings in the game community, the better...

 

[Dastardly]

Disclaimer: The first sentence or the post that follows it is not meant to be baiting. I am a professor of philosophy and this is a sincere statement of my feelings.

Credentialing also does not turn statements into objective truths. Now, if your experience as a philosophy professor somehow came into the realm of this topic, I wouldn't consider this to be "credentialing," but in this case... it just seems to be something meant to add illusory weight to what you've said.

However, for reasons that are entirely mysterious to me, most people believe that, if they wish it REALLY hard, their subjective opinions will MAGICALLY BECOME OBJECTIVE TRUTHS! Aalakazam!

I'm not seeing this. I'm seeing a belief that you're apparently expressing as though it were an objective truth... but it's not, is it? That's not how you mean it, though, and I understand that.

You're expressing your belief in definite terms, because we (as intelligent beings) can already work out the idea that it's "your opinion." So you don't feel compelled to put fifteen "IMHO" or "YMMV" disclaimers in each sentence. "That's your opinion" is such a useless statement that pollutes far too many discussions (In my humble opinion; your mileage may vary!).

As for your list:

The first two are pretty basic and general. They apply to everyone, but you haven't demonstrated their specific bearing to the task at hand. Introducing unrelated premises and proving them right in order to prove the original, unrelated premise? Surely you, as a philosophy scholar, are familiar with ideas like "non sequitur" and "strawman argument." This kind of rides the line between them...

3. The fact that you find the opposing opinion offensive does not make you right, it makes you small-minded (or else every racist, homophobe or fanatic of any kind would be a moral authority by virtue of insanity).

The stance is that doing things deliberately to be offensive is "not okay." There is no "objective" measure for "okay," so arguing that it's not an objective truth is a fruitless line of discussion. Are you saying that it's okay for someone to be deliberately offensive, but it's not okay for the offended to then retaliate?

4. Equating the act of expressing an opinion that you disagree with or using an expression that you dislike (but which in itself is not meant as an actual threat against the life or well-being of another person) with an act of aggression does not make you extra sensitive; it makes you insane. (this seems to be stupidity du jour these days. As a method of reality check, I invite all of you 'words can hurt just as bad' people to go to find a rape victim and say to him/her: "What happened to you is terrible. It is just as bad as using 'rape' as a casual synonym for defeat.")

(EXAMPLE) "You are a retarded shitwit with thin, greasy hair, and you should be raped into a coma," would not be an example of "an expression you dislike." It's an example of something I could say to someone to offend and hurt them. That moves it beyond the bounds of simple "free speech," and into the more complicated realm of other people's freedoms.

But you decide to go into the problem of degrees. Words don't hurt as much as rape, therefore no one can say words hurt? Fine. Rape doesn't hurt as much as being skinned alive, so no one can say rape hurts, right? The general idea is that words can hurt a lot more than people think they can, not that words "hurt as much as rape." Strawman again.

(Also, I doubt the objective truth of your seemingly-overstated qualifications. As with any discussion, if you're not willing to provide evidence to back up a claim, it's really not admissible as any kind of support.)