The Big Picture: Wunderpants - Wonder Woman's New Clothes
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I liked the Jacket as well, I can understand why a jacket seems silly with a full on Amazonian outfit but at the same time if she wears it when not fighting then it makes her stick out. Superman and Batman have such distinct identities that it would look crazy if Bats or Supes wore a jacket over their outfits because that is their uniform, it would look strange but Wonder Woman is basically just that Wonder Woman so when she is not fighting she does not have to change into something else because that is what she normally wears. Throwing on a jacket is just what she does when she is not fighting and wants to stand out less. Supes and Bats just dress as civilians when they don't want to stand out.
This may be the unpopular opinion, but I'm completely ok with the pants. I've always thought (even as a child) that fighting in a swimsuit is stupid (though admittedly I've never been bothered by Street Fighter's costuming except for Makoto's ribbon around her neck... It's around her neck! I mean $#!7 - it's around her @#!$ing neck! But I digress). I've always hated her official costuming. I've also always hated Superman's (along with most other mainstream unitard/cape combos). So yah - pants are fine by me.
Though, if Thor can work, I really REALLY wish WB would take a damn risk and go full Roman soldier with her: helmet, sandals, guantles, manica, greaves, pteruges, and all.
Though, if Thor can work, I really REALLY wish WB would take a damn risk and go full Roman soldier with her: helmet, sandals, guantles, manica, greaves, pteruges, and all.
No worries - nit successfully picked! Yah, I had forgotten the term for the protective waist and thigh covering, and looked up "Roman armor" - thus neglecting that her mythological Amazonion origins are indeed Greek. Thanks for pointing that out!Pogilrup said:
I'm actually really intrigued by your thoughts here, Bob. Because most times, when Wonder Woman is given pants, I usually see and hear alot of people automaticly hating the character because of it, not the other way around, before the first issue hits. In Wonder Woman #600, and in the original New52 design, had pants, and people flipped out. However most of the reasons I was given for said flipping out was a simple "She doesn't look like her original look", despite that her most famous outfit (the hotpants) wasn't her "original look" either. My side is usually that they are "just pants", not some kind of character antilife equation that people treat it to be.
That said, I 100% agree with you.
But I'll even go further to say that pants are not just the problem, but any changes the media makes Wonder Woman in hopes of making her more "relatable", "less strange" or "modern" (and I use the term modern extremely loosely). Giving her sleeves I think is similar to your ideas on giving her pants. Then there's taking away her stranger elements like the invible jet, her original origin of being made from clay, and taking away her amazonian upbringing. Heck, even her new look, which took away the color gold from her outfit, makes her look even more like the American flag, and as a result, more like any other superhero with the same colors. Like Superman and Captain America.
That said, I 100% agree with you.
But I'll even go further to say that pants are not just the problem, but any changes the media makes Wonder Woman in hopes of making her more "relatable", "less strange" or "modern" (and I use the term modern extremely loosely). Giving her sleeves I think is similar to your ideas on giving her pants. Then there's taking away her stranger elements like the invible jet, her original origin of being made from clay, and taking away her amazonian upbringing. Heck, even her new look, which took away the color gold from her outfit, makes her look even more like the American flag, and as a result, more like any other superhero with the same colors. Like Superman and Captain America.
So we went from
Super man sequel -> Super Man sequel with the new batman crossover -> Justice League Prequel
Are we done changing what this movie is going to be?
Super man sequel -> Super Man sequel with the new batman crossover -> Justice League Prequel
Are we done changing what this movie is going to be?
I really don't get the obsession with giving Wonder Woman pants. Pants are the last thing she needs. What she needs are straps. She has a big metal plate attached to the top of her strapless leotard. She probably flashes people on the regular because her top keeps falling down. Even without the metal, strapless outfits are not good for high activity. Considering her background she'd probably feel more comfortable fighting naked than in clothing that she would constantly have to adjust.
Others have posted pictures and I have to agree. Just put her in some hoplite armor and call it a day.
But if pants are really going to be an option I do like this look.
Others have posted pictures and I have to agree. Just put her in some hoplite armor and call it a day.
But if pants are really going to be an option I do like this look.
MovieBob has gone on record to say that he reads Sucker Punch as being anti-sexist at its core (see: His review [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/2962-Sucker-Punch], and "You Are Wrong About Sucker Punch", Parts 1 [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/6247-You-Are-Wrong-About-Sucker-Punch-Part-One] and 2 [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/6266-You-Are-Wrong-About-Sucker-Punch-Part-Two])Trishbot said:
To get back on topic, the post-credits message on his Sucker Punch review states plainly that in his opinion, "long pants don't work" on Wonder Woman. And now we know why.
I love both traditional and the #600 costumes! I think it looks awesome, the jacket gives her more presence while the skintight shirt and pants compliment her curves, but it's just me. I wish I have that jacket, serious!
I cannot stand new52 outfit, on the other hand, gold works better on Wonder Woman, plus that collar is just overdone.
I cannot stand new52 outfit, on the other hand, gold works better on Wonder Woman, plus that collar is just overdone.
I think what's important is intent here. It's like the Power Girl Boob Window - you can spend fifty issues on making up a sensible origin story for it or try to explain how it distracts enemies, but in the end, heroines are wearing it to appeal to male readers. There might be secondary, in-story justifications, but those aren't really important. I think I would be much less bothered by such things if I hadn't seen so many people trying to extensively and uselessly argue their way around this in whole essays of text. "No, she has no pants on because the friction caused by the fabric would actually reduce her etc. etc." What the frickety-frack ever. That's not the reason she has no pants and we all know it. The traditional comic demographic just likes looking at naked women. I understand that, I like looking at naked men. I just don't like it when certain (and this is really just certain fans, not all) treat you like a horrible manhater who wants to ruin all their fun ever and doesn't understand comics if you point out that these costumes are often there to provide fanservice.
That said, I do agree that in the end, the characterisation is what's going to make or break it. The pants debate is really more of a symptom of the disease, not the cure.
Personally, I like Wonder Woman's pants-on look more, not necessarily for feminist reasons, but... I mean, come on, look at the real life version of Wonder Woman. To make those things stay in place, she has to wear these giant granny panty/diaper hybrid things. They look awful in most shots. Witout constantly mooning the audience or a loooot of tape in uncomfortable places, though, there really is no way around that.
That said, I do agree that in the end, the characterisation is what's going to make or break it. The pants debate is really more of a symptom of the disease, not the cure.
Personally, I like Wonder Woman's pants-on look more, not necessarily for feminist reasons, but... I mean, come on, look at the real life version of Wonder Woman. To make those things stay in place, she has to wear these giant granny panty/diaper hybrid things. They look awful in most shots. Witout constantly mooning the audience or a loooot of tape in uncomfortable places, though, there really is no way around that.
It's not about sexualization to me. Maybe she's durable enough and resistant to the climate that she doesn't need pants, but fighting crime in your underwear just looks silly. The armored skirt look works too.
Also, I like the jacket with the pants.
Also, I just don't think about the movie title enough to care how generic the subtitle sounds. To me it's about that stupid 'v', anyway.
Also, I like the jacket with the pants.
Also, I just don't think about the movie title enough to care how generic the subtitle sounds. To me it's about that stupid 'v', anyway.
Just want to say that Wonder Woman probably isn't the "best known female superhero who isn't the girl of a team or the distaff counterpart of a male hero". I would point that one more towards Jean Grey. Granted she is on a team (at least sometimes), but she isn't THE girl (there are multiple), and with the recent set of X-Men movies she is probably better known outside of the people who read or follow comic books. She MIGHT get more name recognition, but there are far far fewer people who know anything about her character.
And I think a lot of people, myself included, don't give Zack Snyder that much credit. Three out of four of the movies I've seen him do involved women being sexually assaulted, and the last one was Superman (so I doubt Warner Bros would have stood for that). He's the guy, after all, that decided to ADD a rape scene to a Frank Miller adaptation.LenticularHomicide said:
If anything, if Zack Snyder attempted to be anti-sexist with Sucker Punch, by using sexual eroticism to make some sort of statement, if he failed to do so with the vast majority of viewers, then a poorly communicated message like that is sexist in its own right (even with the best of intentions) since he believed that that was the best avenue and direction to tell that type of story. It really wasn't.
They had her in some sort of jogging suit in an earlier pilot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHvtlWmlMFU
Lynda Carter had a blue full body swimsuit for Wonderwoman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7_oEd5ZUoY
Electra Woman and Dyna Girl are the best!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqB36FsglEE
The Spider Lady is a rip off of Spiderman in Electra Woman and Dyna Girl?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxXWNVP09dc
Electra-WOW!
http://home.comcast.net/~electrawomananddynagirl/dynagirl.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHvtlWmlMFU
Lynda Carter had a blue full body swimsuit for Wonderwoman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7_oEd5ZUoY
Electra Woman and Dyna Girl are the best!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqB36FsglEE
The Spider Lady is a rip off of Spiderman in Electra Woman and Dyna Girl?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxXWNVP09dc
Electra-WOW!
http://home.comcast.net/~electrawomananddynagirl/dynagirl.html
I can agree that MovieBob might have been giving Zack Snyder too much credit for Sucker Punch (disclaimer: I have not seen Sucker Punch, so my opinion of it, insofar as I have one, doesn't hold much weight).Trishbot said:
That said, I cannot agree that a poorly-communicated anti-sexist message would be sexist in its own right. It would be blaming the creator of a piece entirely for the misinterpretations of their message by their audience.
To give an example, the movie Fight Club has been seen to be an endorsement of mindless cathartic violence, when in fact its message was against mindless conformism, where both the stultifying sameness of everyday life and the unquestioning slogan-chanting fanaticism of the 'Space Monkeys' are both painted as equally dehumanizing and undesirable -- a message that may be lost in the visual spectacle of graphic depictions of bare-knuckle fighting seen in the movie. Given this, should we brand the makers of the movie violence-loving meatheads based on a superficial reading of the work? I think that would be unfair.
It would be much fairer to all involved to say that since the moral and aesthetic attitudes of a creator necessarily colors all their work[footnote]At this point, every college freshman that took Media Studies 101 goes "Duh"[/footnote], the creator's various artistic choices affects the audience's eventual reading of the work's core message, for better or worse[footnote]Marshall McLuhan's statement "The Medium is the Message" comes to mind, but it would be terribly oversimplifying matters to say that the message is entirely dictated by the medium[/footnote]. If Sucker Punch's anti-sexist message (if it actually did have an anti-sexist message) was compromised by the artistic choices made by Snyder, does that completely invalidate the original message?
Well we already know how Wonder Woman will be in this movie. Did the screenwriter not just trash talk She-Hulk? That's all the evidence you need, pants or not, she's going to be just there to look sexy for the fan boys.
To me, she's already very clearly tacked on after the fan uproar and will probably at best have a role like Catwoman in The Dark Knight Rises. Just a forgettable side feature/girlfriend, that appears every now and then to just make a face, maybe kick a guy in the balls cause yeah women's lib! Then disappear while the men take care of the important plot stuff.
To me, she's already very clearly tacked on after the fan uproar and will probably at best have a role like Catwoman in The Dark Knight Rises. Just a forgettable side feature/girlfriend, that appears every now and then to just make a face, maybe kick a guy in the balls cause yeah women's lib! Then disappear while the men take care of the important plot stuff.
In short, and respectfully, I would say "yes".LenticularHomicide said:
Any message, regardless of intent, is invalidated if the recipient fails to receive it. Regarding Fight Club, there is a large portion of people that misread the message, yes, but also a large number of people that did "get it", and a careful observation of the movie (and the book) highly backs up the original intent. Having seen Sucker Punch several times (partially due to Bob's video asking for a re-examination of the material), I only walked away with the opinion that if it was supposedly "anti-sexist" and "pro-feminist", it was created by a man with absolutely no understanding or comprehension of what those terms actually meant.
And that's not new or uncommon, really. I recall a "save Africa" campaign down by ignorant celebrities that dressed up in stereotypical African paint and tribal clothing for a series of pictures to try and bring awareness to problems in the area, not really realizing that Gwenyth Paltrow wearing tribal African paint and clothing while claiming "I am Africa" might be a tad offensive to the people she was trying to raise money for. Or I recall how Neil Diamond wore blackface for a modern remake of The Jazz Singer, claiming he was trying to be faithful to the original film despite culture and societal standards having greatly shift and changed since wearing blackface was deemed acceptable, regardless of intent.
Bad execution can totally invalidate a good message if practically nobody gets what you intended and, instead, the majority walk away believing your intent was the total OPPOSITE of your intent. After all, the very definition of invalidate is that it weakens or destroys the cogency of something, and the execution absolutely weakened, if not destroyed, Zack Snyder's intent (whether that WAS his intent in the first place...)