The Big Picture: Wunderpants - Wonder Woman's New Clothes

[Tim Chuma]

They had her in some sort of jogging suit in an earlier pilot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHvtlWmlMFU

Lynda Carter had a blue full body swimsuit for Wonderwoman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7_oEd5ZUoY

Electra Woman and Dyna Girl are the best!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqB36FsglEE

The Spider Lady is a rip off of Spiderman in Electra Woman and Dyna Girl?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxXWNVP09dc

Electra-WOW!
http://home.comcast.net/~electrawomananddynagirl/dynagirl.html

 

[PunkRex]

No jacket and war-shirt is the best look in my opinion. Wonder Women is meant to be a ancient Greek warrior that means wrestling, long distance running, hand to hand combat and the like, the jacket would just get in the way.

 

[LenticularHomicide]

If anything, if Zack Snyder attempted to be anti-sexist with Sucker Punch, by using sexual eroticism to make some sort of statement, if he failed to do so with the vast majority of viewers, then a poorly communicated message like that is sexist in its own right (even with the best of intentions) since he believed that that was the best avenue and direction to tell that type of story. It really wasn't.

I can agree that MovieBob might have been giving Zack Snyder too much credit for Sucker Punch (disclaimer: I have not seen Sucker Punch, so my opinion of it, insofar as I have one, doesn't hold much weight).

That said, I cannot agree that a poorly-communicated anti-sexist message would be sexist in its own right. It would be blaming the creator of a piece entirely for the misinterpretations of their message by their audience.

To give an example, the movie Fight Club has been seen to be an endorsement of mindless cathartic violence, when in fact its message was against mindless conformism, where both the stultifying sameness of everyday life and the unquestioning slogan-chanting fanaticism of the 'Space Monkeys' are both painted as equally dehumanizing and undesirable -- a message that may be lost in the visual spectacle of graphic depictions of bare-knuckle fighting seen in the movie. Given this, should we brand the makers of the movie violence-loving meatheads based on a superficial reading of the work? I think that would be unfair.

It would be much fairer to all involved to say that since the moral and aesthetic attitudes of a creator necessarily colors all their work[footnote]At this point, every college freshman that took Media Studies 101 goes "Duh"[/footnote], the creator's various artistic choices affects the audience's eventual reading of the work's core message, for better or worse[footnote]Marshall McLuhan's statement "The Medium is the Message" comes to mind, but it would be terribly oversimplifying matters to say that the message is entirely dictated by the medium[/footnote]. If Sucker Punch's anti-sexist message (if it actually did have an anti-sexist message) was compromised by the artistic choices made by Snyder, does that completely invalidate the original message?

 

[PirateRose]

Well we already know how Wonder Woman will be in this movie. Did the screenwriter not just trash talk She-Hulk? That's all the evidence you need, pants or not, she's going to be just there to look sexy for the fan boys.

To me, she's already very clearly tacked on after the fan uproar and will probably at best have a role like Catwoman in The Dark Knight Rises. Just a forgettable side feature/girlfriend, that appears every now and then to just make a face, maybe kick a guy in the balls cause yeah women's lib! Then disappear while the men take care of the important plot stuff.

 

[lord.jeff]

So, let me get this straight...

This is a movie directed by the guy who made Sucker Punch, written by the guy who thinks She-Hulk is just a giant green porn star for the Hulk to bang, with consultation by the guy responsible for "sperm bank" Wonder Woman and Sin City, starring a super-skinny supermodel with very limited acting experience best known for looking "sexy" for a few scenes of the last Fast & Furious movie.

... Good lord. All we need is some Mark Millar tossed in there and we'll hit the sexist bingo.

MovieBob has gone on record to say that he reads Sucker Punch as being anti-sexist at its core (see: His review [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/2962-Sucker-Punch], and "You Are Wrong About Sucker Punch", Parts 1 [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/6247-You-Are-Wrong-About-Sucker-Punch-Part-One] and 2 [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/6266-You-Are-Wrong-About-Sucker-Punch-Part-Two])

To get back on topic, the post-credits message on his Sucker Punch review states plainly that in his opinion, "long pants don't work" on Wonder Woman. And now we know why.

Bob has also defended Bayanetta and Other M as not being sexist so I wouldn't take Bob's opinion on what is and isn't sexist, I think he lets his bias blind him a bit.

 

[Trishbot]

If Sucker Punch's anti-sexist message (if it actually did have an anti-sexist message) was compromised by the artistic choices made by Snyder, does that completely invalidate the original message?

In short, and respectfully, I would say "yes".

Any message, regardless of intent, is invalidated if the recipient fails to receive it. Regarding Fight Club, there is a large portion of people that misread the message, yes, but also a large number of people that did "get it", and a careful observation of the movie (and the book) highly backs up the original intent. Having seen Sucker Punch several times (partially due to Bob's video asking for a re-examination of the material), I only walked away with the opinion that if it was supposedly "anti-sexist" and "pro-feminist", it was created by a man with absolutely no understanding or comprehension of what those terms actually meant.

And that's not new or uncommon, really. I recall a "save Africa" campaign down by ignorant celebrities that dressed up in stereotypical African paint and tribal clothing for a series of pictures to try and bring awareness to problems in the area, not really realizing that Gwenyth Paltrow wearing tribal African paint and clothing while claiming "I am Africa" might be a tad offensive to the people she was trying to raise money for. Or I recall how Neil Diamond wore blackface for a modern remake of The Jazz Singer, claiming he was trying to be faithful to the original film despite culture and societal standards having greatly shift and changed since wearing blackface was deemed acceptable, regardless of intent.

Bad execution can totally invalidate a good message if practically nobody gets what you intended and, instead, the majority walk away believing your intent was the total OPPOSITE of your intent. After all, the very definition of invalidate is that it weakens or destroys the cogency of something, and the execution absolutely weakened, if not destroyed, Zack Snyder's intent (whether that WAS his intent in the first place...)

 

[LenticularHomicide]

If Sucker Punch's anti-sexist message (if it actually did have an anti-sexist message) was compromised by the artistic choices made by Snyder, does that completely invalidate the original message?

In short, and respectfully, I would say "yes".

Any message, regardless of intent, is invalidated if the recipient fails to receive it. [...] Having seen Sucker Punch several times (partially due to Bob's video asking for a re-examination of the material), I only walked away with the opinion that if it was supposedly "anti-sexist" and "pro-feminist", it was created by a man with absolutely no understanding or comprehension of what those terms actually meant.

[...]

Bad execution can totally invalidate a good message if practically nobody gets what you intended and, instead, the majority walk away believing your intent was the total OPPOSITE of your intent. After all, the very definition of invalidate is that it weakens or destroys the cogency of something, and the execution absolutely weakened, if not destroyed, Zack Snyder's intent (whether that WAS his intent in the first place...)

Ah, I think I see now where you're coming from.

Your position was not (as I initially surmised) that any poorly-communicated anti-sexist message is automatically sexist, it's that Zack Snyder's (debatable) attempt was so ham-handed and tone-deaf that it may as well have been earnestly sexist.

I can totally agree with that sentiment, that if a work appears to actively militate against its message, that the eventual mess can wind up void of meaning.

Bob has also defended Bayanetta and Other M as not being sexist so I wouldn't take Bob's opinion on what is and isn't sexist, I think he lets his bias blind him a bit.

Other M? Really? That's...disappointing.

 

[Hutzpah Chicken]

Warner Bros. is sticking with that title? Is it because of Copyright issues, as that seems like something that their Shakespearean Monkey experiment plopped out.

 

[Arawn]

With all those clips from of Wonder Woman from the cartoon, I have the sneaking suspicion that the movie won't come close. Not saying she won't be a good character, just that compared to action and story the cartoon WW has is much greater than they'll allow for the film. Fighting demons, gods, and betrayed by her fellow amazons. There's a build up to the character, there's a story she transverses. In the film she's undoubtedly going to be part of the sideshow. Batman and Superman will take the center ring, and WW is either pop in and pop out, or could ruin possible dynamic of Bats and Supes. Let's be frank; WW is Supes without the weakness to kryptonite. (odd that kryptonite is flagged by spell/auto correct. Suggested alternative; krypton)If there was some super power threat that Supes couldn't handle alone, WW is the smart choice for back up. She's got more battle training than the dark knight, and the muscle to break tanks. And no she's not some mindless warrior. As to her training she's a competent tactician. The Justice League trinity all have behave like generals leading troops into battle. I'm almost looking forward to the reason they keep her from doing anything. Maybe she is the threat the two heroes combine against? A la brainwashing perhaps? I don't know, but WW deserves more than just a foot note in this coming movie. Jacket or no jacket. But to be fair I'd suggest a jacket to make up for the skinny girl playing the role. Sorry, she doesn't look like a warrior maiden raised to battle. Some say she's bulking up and working out. Could prove me wrong. I would like that.

 

[ccggenius12]

"Solomon Grundy want pants too."

 

[Stabby Joe]

I have next to no faith in the Justice League films. While previously discussed in regards to She-Hulk, David Goyer also dissed Martian Manhunter IE an original staple league member and insulted his fans at the same time.

Again: Justice league writer insults the source material and fans...

...the property is not in good hands.

 

[SNCommand]

Personally hoping for the hoplite inspired armor option

 

[skylog]

Y'know, the more times I hear "Dawn of Justice", the more it grows on me. Is it really bas as all that?

 

[Gezzer]

So, Bob sounds a little sick this week...? Or was that just me...?
Also, why the everloving hell does Escapist do those pop up windows to frame videos? I can't close them once they're open without reloading the page.

Actually he mentioned a cold about a month or two ago, and his voice has been coming and going ever since. It was worse today is all. I hope Bob's gone to the doctor to find out what's going on. It might just be allergies coinciding with the cold's departure, but if a cold lasts more than a few weeks it might be something else. Just saying....

As for the costume question, my big reaction is, heh. I don't really care either way. In fact I didn't lose my sht over the Green Lantern's new look, or Superman's in the last reboot. I also don't think making a woman a sexual being is all that bad, a sex object on the other hand, not so much. But that's the thing, we all are sexual beings to a point, and as Bob said, it's less about that, then it is about making a woman a stereotypical "blonde bimbo" type. So I almost could get behind a woman superhero wearing only pasties and a thong (Striper Girl anyone?). I say almost because it would be too much like a character out of an Ed Woods movie for me to take seriously.

 

[4173]

Just want to say that Wonder Woman probably isn't the "best known female superhero who isn't the girl of a team or the distaff counterpart of a male hero". I would point that one more towards Jean Grey. Granted she is on a team (at least sometimes), but she isn't THE girl (there are multiple), and with the recent set of X-Men movies she is probably better known outside of the people who read or follow comic books. She MIGHT get more name recognition, but there are far far fewer people who know anything about her character.

Jean Grey as Marvel Girl was the girl of the team.

 

[MorganL4]

Just based on how she fights.... Wouldn't the jacket get in the way? Wouldn't it cause problems with being able to do some of the moves she does to take down her opponents? I'm just saying..... Look at the comic clip Bob included in there, and then try to picture her doing all that while trying to wear a jacket.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

Yeah, that jacket was stupid.

Wonder Woman: Haha! I am invincible!

Minor Chill man: *Jumps through a window next to an open door* NOT TODAY, WONDER WOMAN! *Throws a breeze*

Wonder Woman: NO! Not a small draft! NO! My power is gone! If only I had a way to protect my shoulders from the cold!

Rob Liefeld: Don't worry! I can save you! *Throws a jacket at Wonder Woman*

Wonder Woman: Thanks Rob!

Rob: Now let me break your back and give you guns.

 

[VVThoughtBox]

Making Wonder Woman a feminist icon seems to be doing more harm than good. Feminism is an ideology not a personality. If you think about, it's very foolish to use one character to represent an entire movement made up of millions of people. I have a feeling that if Wonder Woman were to meet feminists in real life, it would be something similar to Superman vs. The Elite where the Superhero from the WWII era (Wonder Woman) calls out the current generation on being so reckless and impulsive when it comes to the issue of justice and civil rights.

 

[Boogie Knight]

I'm hoping that the film's rationale is that Wonder Woman was at a pants party and had to drop what she was doing to save the day. Yes, I'm hoping for a multimillion dollar movie to make an obscure MST3K reference. Makes as much sense as the casting of Lex Luthor.

Seriously, the pants are really the least of my worries. With all the characters and obvious set up for a Justice League movie, there are a whole lot of moving parts that can fly off and insert themselves into someone's eye.

As for the idea of more subdued clothes=good and little left to the imagination=evil, I really think it should be the opposite. The villainess conceals herself with clothes because she has much to hide, or burdensome clothing as visual cue for the weight of tyranny on the populace. Just a thought rattling around in my head, don't expect it to be the new standard but it would be interesting to see deliberate attempts to invert cliches.

 

[ace_of_something]

It always bugged me how Wonder Woman's traditional Amazon greek goddess imbued suit looked like a an American themed stripper's in Japan's starting outfit. Shouldn't it look like something you see in an ancient fresco.

If they REAAALLY want to make her look different they should give her Exoristos' costume from demon knights.