This wasn't as funny as the earlier Extra Punctuation articles, but I think it was completely spot-on. Great article, Yahtzee.
The Conduit
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
But Gamecube games looked pretty good. Or at least to me they did.matsugawa said:
OT: great points Yahtzee, as usual. There is one thing I'd like to point out though. There will always be one douche in the gaming industry who thinks graphics means everything and behind him there will be millions if not billions of people who think the same thing.
I know what he means, I'd much rather gander at the cell shaded graphics of a Valkyria Chronicles than the realistic (as they could get) graphics of Fallout 3.
As realistic as they want their games to look, Bethesda only ever gets the characters to look as realistic as a Disneyland Automatron.
As realistic as they want their games to look, Bethesda only ever gets the characters to look as realistic as a Disneyland Automatron.
The problem arises when companies shoe horn 3D into genres that dont need it. Platform games and fighting games, especially scrolling beat em ups were effectivly killed by 3D graphics and I think the medium is worse off for it. I cant think of 1 platform game (Mario 64 included) that didnt suffer from being in 3D or comes anywhere close to the likes of Super Mario World, the Megadrive Sonic games or the Turrican franchise. Nor can I think of a fighter that touches the playability of the 2D street fighter and King of fighters series (including Street fighter 3d which used pretty much the same fighting engine and was still awful). Also try comparing the fun and intuitive combat of Legend of Zelda on the Snes to the awful system all the 3D zeldas have. 3D just doesnt lend itself to certain genres.
Companies need to re-embrace the good old 2D graphics, it can be done, go look at the high-res 2D HAND DRAWN graphics that the new King of Fighters game has if you don't believe me.
Then maybe, just maybe, we'll get a decent new Streets of Rage game lol
Companies need to re-embrace the good old 2D graphics, it can be done, go look at the high-res 2D HAND DRAWN graphics that the new King of Fighters game has if you don't believe me.
Then maybe, just maybe, we'll get a decent new Streets of Rage game lol
Some people have mentioned it already, but I want to put my own two cents in about it.
I, for one, loved the 2D Odin Sphere.
Muramasa looks like it'll be ten times more beautiful compared to Odin Sphere, and since the story is spread across only two characters, the repetition should be much less than it's predecessor. The gameplay has clearly improved, as well, what with it being much more fast-paced, each character using two different styles of fighting, plus teh ability to use super-moves. All of this was absent from Odin Sphere.
As for my opinion on 2D in general, I like it much better than 3D. I play games like Disgaea and Phantom Brave because, frankly, you can do a lot more things using "just" sprites in a game. As long as you have just as much imagination as you do work ethic, you can pull off some amazing things that would look unbearably awkward in 3D. So Yahtzee was right on the money. Once he suggested two 3D characters kissing, I cringed at the thought.
I, for one, loved the 2D Odin Sphere.
Muramasa looks like it'll be ten times more beautiful compared to Odin Sphere, and since the story is spread across only two characters, the repetition should be much less than it's predecessor. The gameplay has clearly improved, as well, what with it being much more fast-paced, each character using two different styles of fighting, plus teh ability to use super-moves. All of this was absent from Odin Sphere.
As for my opinion on 2D in general, I like it much better than 3D. I play games like Disgaea and Phantom Brave because, frankly, you can do a lot more things using "just" sprites in a game. As long as you have just as much imagination as you do work ethic, you can pull off some amazing things that would look unbearably awkward in 3D. So Yahtzee was right on the money. Once he suggested two 3D characters kissing, I cringed at the thought.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you completely, especially on the Gamecube (the Metroid Prime series is a gorgeous series). What I mean by looking only as good as an original XBox or GCN title is that developers like the Conduit team were trying to go up against the 360 and the PS3, which are graphically/technically superior to the Gamecube (albeit Metroid Prime is still more fun).Goldbling said:
Put simply, they're trying to win Le Mans by putting jet fuel in a golf cart.
There are games where I really think that the graphics aged well. I mean look at Sands of Time and Half-Life 2.
Anyway, great article, Yahtzee
Anyway, great article, Yahtzee
Deus Ex is one of two games in total I will play again and again no matter how old it gets. It is unmatched and no game has come close to its level. It invented a proper moral choice system and is the only game to offer one to date. Anything and everything effects what happens next. I swear 1 part where you meat a random drug addict chick there is around 8 different variations to what happens with here alone. You can save her, kill her, kill the drug dealer, tell the hotel owner, do nothing and watch the drug dealer kill the hotel owner, save the hotel owner, kill them both, kill all 3, kill them both and spare the drug dealer, etc and each and every one of them effects the story in a different way. Nothing compares to Deus Ex, NOTHING.Mezzamine said:
If anyone is curious about my "second" game its the Disgaea Series. Though honourable mentions go to Zone Of the Enders 2 and Devil May Cry 1.
As far as 3D goes for me it comes down to whether of not the developers were able to acheive their vision with the technology available at the time in combination with all the other elements that make a great game.
In other words did they give a shit about making a great game despite any grapical drawbacks.
Grapics are important as this is a visual medium,but not as important as the overal cohesion of the title.
In other words did they give a shit about making a great game despite any grapical drawbacks.
Grapics are important as this is a visual medium,but not as important as the overal cohesion of the title.
Kilo--interesting post; it seems to me that 3D ushered in "realism" as a goal for art design, even for games like Portal or Bioshock...I remember Bioshock devs talking quite a bit about how much effort they'd put into the *water* in Bioshock, presumably b/c having water behave in "realistic" ways worked as a way to make the environment immersive.
Are you aware of the Freespace SCP [http://www.hard-light.net/] (Source Code Project)? Ever since Volition released the source code the community has been hard at work improving and modernizing the game, while retaining the classic 'feel'. With all the new effects and models in place, the game will actually look as cool as you remember it being 10 years ago when it first came out, huzzah!KDR_11k said:
Once again Yahtzee you make a wonderful point. It's actually it's funny you should mention the contrast of 2D vs 3D 'cause I just picked up the GBA version of Super Mario Bros. 3 the other day and have been having a grand time replaying those old levels. The majesty of a good 2D platformer is apparently a lost art.
I'd argue that 2D games have aged just like everything else. While, yes, the 8-bit Mario games may still be a bit more "playable" than Mario 64, by Yahtzee's standards, it is impossible to ignore that the shift to HD has left some of the most beautiful 2D games of the past, like the Donkey Kong Country series, looking like utter shite.
What 3D games need to do to give themselves a timeless look is create unique design styles for themselves. That allows them to break away from the quickly depreciating realistic graphics, and also gives them little to be compared against. Now, doing the unique style right is another thing, because we have successes like Mirrors Edge which, though a terrible game, had a unique, sharp, contrasting artistic style that I immensely enjoyed. But then we have failures like MadWorld where the only time I'm not trying to figure out what it is I'm looking is when the massive splatters of red on the screen prevent me from doing so.
There are still a few realistic games I feel have withstood the test of time, such as Half Life 2. It's graphics still look excellent, and it's character models are still the most believable (Thanks to their facial expressions and physical interactions) I've seen.
And as for Wii, yeah, that was the whole idea. Create not a graphics machine, but create a gameplay machine. I bought into it for that reason. But sadly, they did neither. I've never found myself immersed in the Wii controls enough to say "Yes, this is totally worth the sacrifice of graphics and story and game length and any respectable multiplayer games." As soon as developers learned that they could create a simple set of minigames in 2 weeks and charge $50 for it, and a couple million clueless housewives to buy it, they stopped trying to be innovative. That was the downfall of the Wii, and since it's making more money now, they're never going to try to make quality games again.
There are still a few realistic games I feel have withstood the test of time, such as Half Life 2. It's graphics still look excellent, and it's character models are still the most believable (Thanks to their facial expressions and physical interactions) I've seen.
And as for Wii, yeah, that was the whole idea. Create not a graphics machine, but create a gameplay machine. I bought into it for that reason. But sadly, they did neither. I've never found myself immersed in the Wii controls enough to say "Yes, this is totally worth the sacrifice of graphics and story and game length and any respectable multiplayer games." As soon as developers learned that they could create a simple set of minigames in 2 weeks and charge $50 for it, and a couple million clueless housewives to buy it, they stopped trying to be innovative. That was the downfall of the Wii, and since it's making more money now, they're never going to try to make quality games again.
I was hoping to see you try to counter the arguments made in favor of The Conduit's control scheme. Instead, I get a thought-provoking, intelligent read about the futility of the graphics arms race and striving for ultra-realism. Bravo, Yahtzee. 2D will always be the way to go in my mind. Look at the Wiimagioning of "A Boy & His Blob", or look at Muramasa, or hell, even Warioland: Shake It! Gorgeous, hand-drawn 2D graphics. Just beautiful.
2D games were never saddled by the delusion of "realism" that has plagued the developers of many 3D games, and as a result, style comes before realism more so in 2D than in 3D.
But 2D games have aged too. An SNES could never display the resolution that makes games like Braid look so good. I played New Super Mario Bros. and then went back to Super Mario World and was surprised at how ugly the latter looked. 2D games are now taking advantage not only of better resolution, but of 3D backgrounds and models.
I think the big problem with 3D games now is not that the games look bad (Ocarina of Time, for instance, still looks pretty good; of course, the games that worked toward realistic visuals back then do not) but that they don't work at high resolutions. I remember Gran Turismo 4 looking amazing on my family's old 15-inch TV, but when we got a 40-inch HDTV it looked like utter crap. When you blow up a game to many times the resolution it was meant for, it makes a bigger difference than ten years of constantly advancing technology.
But 2D games have aged too. An SNES could never display the resolution that makes games like Braid look so good. I played New Super Mario Bros. and then went back to Super Mario World and was surprised at how ugly the latter looked. 2D games are now taking advantage not only of better resolution, but of 3D backgrounds and models.
I think the big problem with 3D games now is not that the games look bad (Ocarina of Time, for instance, still looks pretty good; of course, the games that worked toward realistic visuals back then do not) but that they don't work at high resolutions. I remember Gran Turismo 4 looking amazing on my family's old 15-inch TV, but when we got a 40-inch HDTV it looked like utter crap. When you blow up a game to many times the resolution it was meant for, it makes a bigger difference than ten years of constantly advancing technology.