The core problem with Tropes vs Women in Video Games

[Six Ways]

Does a female lead increase your fun/enjoyment? FIne. does socially conscious narrative increase fun/enjoyment? Fine... so if you take fun == enjoyment to be interchangeable .. and why not? because I for one cannot think of an enjoyable activity that isn't also fun and vice-versa, you see my point still stands.

The important and only criteria for evaluating games is 'Fun'.

I've been taking 'fun' to overlap with 'enjoyment' the whole time. And I'm still saying it's valid to judge games on any other terms one likes. I do not have to enjoy something to think it's good, or at least worthwhile or valuable. And, conversely, I can enjoy something and still think it's bad.

I'll re-state a question I posed in the previous post. If a game, while 'fun', was made entirely using slave labour - is it 'good'?

I've never been against game diversity, but then again I've never seen a lack of diversity in my games.

Again - perfectly fine. But others do see such a lack, so... yeah.

Then others need to open their eyes and look around. I mean I have a butt-tonne of games which you have a playable female protagonist, somewhere your gender is ambiguous or non-existent . These games have been accumulated over the past 20 years so these aren't new games. They've been out there for sometime.. But as the say is. If you want to see Misogyny/Misandry you will find it..if you're looking for games with strong competent female lead characters.. you will find them.

That's missing the point. No-one's saying those games don't exist - just that there aren't enough of them. That the balance is very skewed. That in itself is a lack of diversity; if you don't have 'choice' (i.e. enough examples of the thing you're looking for, whatever it might be, to actually be able to choose within that subset) then I wouldn't call that a diverse market. Assuming, of course, that what you're looking for is not ridiculously niche - but I don't think well-rounded female characters (not just a 'playable female protagonist' - such a character can still easily be a flat stereotype, designed for male sexual fantasy, etc) should be ridiculously niche. But they are, in my experience and that of others, vastly in the minority nonetheless.

I'd also point out that I don't think it's really for you (or me) to determine whether the market offers what a given group wants. If women tell me they feel underrepresented in games, I'm inclined to listen to them until I have good reason to think I know better than them.

 

[Melaphont]

I'd also point out that I don't think it's really for you (or me) to determine whether the market offers what a given group wants. If women tell me they feel underrepresented in games, I'm inclined to listen to them until I have good reason to think I know better than them.

So do all women think the same? >.>

So if a woman tells you that between their MMO's and some other games tehy play(like Pokemon or something) that they are fine, that they are wrong?

Look, I'm not saying ANYONE is wrong for asking for a product, that is cool, and should be encouraged. However, to say that there isnt enough is...well relative to the consumer. Also, the fact that you narrow your willingness to be satisfied("playable female protags don't count"), I'd say that maybe you are pigeon holing games to fit a narrative. I mean, how many games are there actually with female protags the "changeable" versions or not? Do we even know, before making the claim there are enough or too few? I mean, what is the magic number?

 

[Six Ways]

I'd also point out that I don't think it's really for you (or me) to determine whether the market offers what a given group wants. If women tell me they feel underrepresented in games, I'm inclined to listen to them until I have good reason to think I know better than them.

So do all women think the same? >.>

You misinterpret what I meant. I mean 'if [some] women', not 'if [women as a whole]'. I'm merely saying that if someone, anyone, says to me that they don't think the market is catering to them, then I'd better be very sure I know better than them about their own tastes if I'm going to claim otherwise.

Also, the fact that you narrow your willingness to be satisfied("playable female protags don't count"), I'd say that maybe you are pigeon holing games to fit a narrative.

I was saying that just having a playable female protagonist does not, by itself, make a game non-sexist, or 'diverse', or whatever. I explicitly did not say 'playable female protagonists don't count'.

Diversity is not a checklist to be ticked off. It's a qualitative thing. It's the exact opposite of pigeonholing. A playable female protagonist might be well-rounded, or a flat stereotype, or anything in between.

 

[Melaphont]

I'd also point out that I don't think it's really for you (or me) to determine whether the market offers what a given group wants. If women tell me they feel underrepresented in games, I'm inclined to listen to them until I have good reason to think I know better than them.

So do all women think the same? >.>

You misinterpret what I meant. I mean 'if [some] women', not 'if [women as a whole]'. I'm merely saying that if someone, anyone, says to me that they don't think the market is catering to them, then I'd better be very sure I know better than them about their own tastes if I'm going to claim otherwise.

Also, the fact that you narrow your willingness to be satisfied("playable female protags don't count"), I'd say that maybe you are pigeon holing games to fit a narrative.

I was saying that just having a playable female protagonist does not, by itself, make a game non-sexist, or 'diverse', or whatever. I explicitly did not say 'playable female protagonists don't count'.

Diversity is not a checklist to be ticked off. It's a qualitative thing. It's the exact opposite of pigeonholing. A playable female protagonist might be well-rounded, or a flat stereotype, or anything in between.

Well ya, if people say they don't have a product that they want, then sure. There is nothing to disagree with there, still though a market doesn't exist in a vacuum, there needs to be some real demand there. Just because you want a market to be viable doesn't automatically mean it is.

Well ya, it is all nebulous, that was kinda my point. Finding the perfect balance in a market is hard, and there still seems to be room for growth in the market. Hopefully any new games that come in light of a supposed demand don't fail, and that real demand is there.

 

[Six Ways]

I've been taking 'fun' to overlap with 'enjoyment' the whole time. And I'm still saying it's valid to judge games on any other terms one likes. I do not have to enjoy something to think it's good, or at least worthwhile or valuable. And, conversely, I can enjoy something and still think it's bad.

Huh? That's a bit of mentalgymnastics.

While it's not mental gymnastics (one can enjoy shit pop music but still think it's crap, or find it difficult to watch a particularly harrowing film but appreciate its artistic importance), 'good' and 'bad' are not the central point.

Criticism is a very broad concept, and doesn't necessarily result in saying something is 'good' or 'bad'. One can analyse a game based on its social, political, historical, etc etc aspects, and ignore entirely whether it is 'fun'. Same for films, music, books, anything.

SO let me pose a question. If you found out a component in your PC was produced using child labour in unsafe conditions... would you stop using your computer?

Well... while there may be no point getting rid of the component I've already bought, I certainly wouldn't buy from that manufacturer again. And I wouldn't need to look at reviews or specs to make that decision. I simply wouldn't support such manufacturing. Are you saying you'd keep buying from them?

Well rounded is a very subjective term and as I've said before.

And it's therefore up to each person to say whether or not they feel a character is such. As with all of that. So again, I give others the benefit of the doubt if they say they do not feel catered to.

You'll find them, plenty of them. Trouble is, most only look at what others handpick to show them.

Again - if well-rounded is by your own admission a subjective term, then you can't promise that. And the second sentence is pure conjecture.

 

[Jesterscup]

Yes her arguments are flawed, but her points are valid.
Yes she's clearly biased, but her points are valid.
Yes it hurts if you're a guy and someone points out sexist stuff in a product you like, but you don't get to choose if its Misogynistic.
No, if you're a guy you don't get to choose if something is Misogynistic.


Simply put the problem is not that these 'tropes' exist in games, but that they are tropes. They are used over and over and over, reinforcing damaging cultural stereotypes.
A rape scene in a game can be a valid point in a story, the problem comes when a significant percentage of games use these as plot points ( or background dressing to make the environment real and gritty) how many games can you name with male rape? and no it's not as rare as you might think in real life.

The fact that not all games use these tropes does not have any real effect on the argument. For every exception you find there are many many examples of the trope. and often other tropes are used, as an example you give MB2 as having a playable character, when this is just a case of another trope the "smurfette" trope in fact in MB2 ( a game notable for having an early transgender character ) it can be argued the Peach is the only female character in the game.


Sadly there are many interesting points that people ignore in relation to this, the fact that we're trying to get past 4,000+ years of misogyny, when we reference almost all of our myth/legend/fokelore we're likely being misogynistic, we've got a long journey ahead. Or given the old "violence in games" arguments why should "sexism in games" be any different.

 

[carnex]

-snip-

You are making a positive claim that so many other are making. Positive claim that can and should have serious consequences to 200 billion dollars industry. But what are you basing your claim on. I ask this same question every single time and i have yet to receive any valid source that would prove that claim to a reasonable level. Will you be the one to enlighten me?

 

[Jesterscup]

-snip-

You are making a positive claim that so many other are making. Positive claim that can and should have serious consequences to 200 billion dollars industry. But what are you basing your claim on. I ask this same question every single time and i have yet to receive any valid source that would prove that claim to a reasonable level. Will you be the one to enlighten me?

Sorry, But what claim am i making, and how specifically would this effect the games industry?
Given that 40% of gamers are women reducing the amount of sexism may actually improve the market conditions for these companies which are still primarily making+marketing games for teenage heterosexual males.

Because if you are asking what I think you're asking, it can easily be translated to " is it ok to be sexist and have rape&violence against women in games because that makes money" .

 

[F4TK]

The first Tropes Vs Women video uses a whole bunch of cherry picked and heavily edited, out of context video clips to make the point that "the damsel in distress trope is overused and the use of it is harmful to women".

As such, she claims all uses of the damsel in the distress is sexist. Even parodies or subversions of it such as Spelunky.

Also that not all examples of the trope are sexist.

So to confirm again unless you missed that. Her point is... all uses of the trope are sexist, but not all uses of the trope are sexist.

It's clear why she added that last part. It's another weasel word style escape clause in case anyone points out a non sexist example to debunk her earlier claim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

In doing that she's actually refuted her own point. However, the gaming press was crawling over each other to much to praise the work and scream out that it was BRILLIANT that they hadn't even noticed that she hadn't even made an actual argument.

Frankly, the entire series is junk that if judged on its own merits would have probably be resigned to some dark forgotten corner of the internet with all the other poorly researched, cherry picked, biased videos made with other people's footage by someone that doesn't know anything about the subject they are talking about.

At least, it would have been if all those trollbait articles about the martyr of internet gaming whose shining example we must all submit to and follow weren't made.

 

[Guerilla]

-snip-

You are making a positive claim that so many other are making. Positive claim that can and should have serious consequences to 200 billion dollars industry. But what are you basing your claim on. I ask this same question every single time and i have yet to receive any valid source that would prove that claim to a reasonable level. Will you be the one to enlighten me?

Sorry, But what claim am i making, and how specifically would this effect the games industry?
Given that 40% of gamers are women reducing the amount of sexism may actually improve the market conditions for these companies which are still primarily making+marketing games for teenage heterosexual males.

He's asking you to substantiate your claims about Sarkeesian's point being right. Instead of doing that you're just spamming feminist buzzwords all over your posts and use Sarkeesian's propaganda as a fact. I mean..

Because if you are asking what I think you're asking, it can easily be translated to " is it ok to be sexist and have rape&violence against women in games because that makes money" .

WTF dude... You've taken the strawman to a whole new level and you still haven't made a salient point on why Sarkeesian is right.

 

[gargantual]

Yes her arguments are flawed, but her points are valid.
Yes she's clearly biased, but her points are valid.
Yes it hurts if you're a guy and someone points out sexist stuff in a product you like, but you don't get to choose if its Misogynistic.
No, if you're a guy you don't get to choose if something is Misogynistic.


Simply put the problem is not that these 'tropes' exist in games, but that they are tropes. They are used over and over and over, reinforcing damaging cultural stereotypes.
A rape scene in a game can be a valid point in a story, the problem comes when a significant percentage of games use these as plot points ( or background dressing to make the environment real and gritty) how many games can you name with male rape? and no it's not as rare as you might think in real life.

The fact that not all games use these tropes does not have any real effect on the argument. For every exception you find there are many many examples of the trope. and often other tropes are used, as an example you give MB2 as having a playable character, when this is just a case of another trope the "smurfette" trope in fact in MB2 ( a game notable for having an early transgender character ) it can be argued the Peach is the only female character in the game.


Sadly there are many interesting points that people ignore in relation to this, the fact that we're trying to get past 4,000+ years of misogyny, when we reference almost all of our myth/legend/fokelore we're likely being misogynistic, we've got a long journey ahead. Or given the old "violence in games" arguments why should "sexism in games" be any different.

Its only what you put into man. Not every player is a victim. Do devs overuse exploitation? Sure.

Is it because they are trying to get a reaction out of player or prompt them to do something.

Or is it because they are trying to make a movie.

I'd posit its the former. It takes time to display the type of depth of villany you see in film and literature. But when you hafta to go ham in a scene to get back to the gameplay. It just comes with the territory.

I think devs do it, not JUST because this shlock is heavily influenced and focus grouped by AAA publisher interests, but because all tools should be on the table. People are judged initially by their works as angels or demons of the media so its important for a piece of media game/film/album etc to establish how low it wants to go. Otherwise folks will think its "unbecoming of you" as an artist. When you stop crossing the line, moral guardians expect you'll never do it again. So the proper response is to keep on crossing the line as long as you have a fanbase that understands till they get used to it. Some media arent for male sensibilities or female sensibilities, sometimes there's overlap, but to be able to tolerate and understand each other at our most contentious and provocative in media expression is where progress in communication happens. Theres gonna be some fights but I think the solution is to just get different voices behind the popular games of the future.

in television sitcoms guys are largely stereotyped as dumb hapless homer simpsons but no one writes letters to the network, because we understand people should be allowed to perpetuate any human caricatures or stereotypes they want if they have the platform to create media for an audience. The contract is they make what they want, we decide if we want to subscribe to it or not.

the audience you're talking about, I don't think is necessarily internalizing these stereotypes in what we paint as dubebro action to the extent critics think they are. Its simply pulp with the visual veneer of authenticity. But most gamers of varying ages are intelligent to disassociate the pulp from how they regard the individuals around them.

Internalizing is more like how angry fundamentalists interpret religious books, or hate rhetoric entirely as solid fact and ready to take innocent lives based on them. False perceptions of entitlement to women are perpetuated more so I think by abusive institutions in the real world. Wheras we're more uncertain and prone to respect people who respect themselves in the real world.

Oh? The shit talkers in Call of Duty multiplayer. Theres a fix for that. Put them in counter-strike and see how long those camping tweens last. Kids have been mean and mischevious for decades, any foulness they're spewing is learned just as much from their peers and family than the media surrounding them. But a culture of harder games, with less margin for error, less social ranking and more ambiguous victories in a competitive environment lowers egos and humbles people.

 

[Jesterscup]

He's asking you to substantiate your claims about Sarkeesian's point being right. Instead of doing that you're just spamming feminist buzzwords all over your posts and use Sarkeesian's propaganda as a fact. I mean..

See here's the thing, I'm not. Hence the "her arguments are flawed" statement at the beginning. Thermodynamics states you can't fix a broken argument

When I first watched her tropes vs. ( and not just the games ones ) I was simply raging, it's badly done on so many levels, and I'll happily list them all ( or at least all the ones I know). But the fact she fails to make the argument in a well formed manner does not mean there is not an argument to be made. While we rage as gamers we make ourselves look bad to those who are not gamers who may take an interest in this discussion. Sexism in videogames is a thing, how is that right or defensible?
note: when you write your reply, change sexism for racism and see if it's still ok would you?

Because if you are asking what I think you're asking, it can easily be translated to " is it ok to be sexist and have rape&violence against women in games because that makes money" .

WTF dude... You've taken the strawman to a whole new level and you still haven't made a salient point on why Sarkeesian is right.

Yeah, you're damn right I am, but it was a fair point in context was it not. Not a defence of Sarkeesian though. I was asked to defend a point when it affects a "200 billion dollar industry"

I'm not a feminist apologist either ( I don't get to be, due to the sexual organs I was born with, or so I'm told ), but one of my careers is being a drag-queen performance artist ( yeah really), so I get a small taste of what women deal with on a daily basis, so yeah your damn right that I'll stand up and "thats not right"

I can't possibly argue that games encourage people to behave in a certain way. The problem is that too many people already behave that way and we need to try as a society to say "thats not right". Because when we say "it's ok" or when we say nothing, we validate those who behave like that.

 

[Six Ways]

Actually I can, since no matter what you consider well rounded and given the thousands and thousands of games out there. There is a high chance that within one of of them is a female character that someone will consider well rounded.

You said 'plenty of them'. That, you cannot promise. Enough to be able to make a meaningful choice, you cannot promise. The existence of a few 'good' games in this sense (and don't get me wrong, they absolutely exist) does not negate the argument. That being, that decent representation of women in media is not a niche interest, yet can be found in only a disproportionately small fraction of said media.

Never mind the many games in which the player actually defines that actions and attitudes of the character themselves. In which case, the protagonist is what the player chooses them to be. Male? Female?, SHort? Tall? Fat? Skinny? Gay? Straight? Bi? Pacifist, Aggressive, etc.

Again - that doesn't mean a game is not sexist. I'm already aware of everything you're saying. People arguing that sexism in gaming is a problem are aware of everything you're saying. They still come to the conclusion that sexism in gaming is a problem.

As for your second point? COnjecture? No. Scientifically Proven? Yes. It's been seen time and time again, that the greater the awareness of something the more likely to be purchased. If that weren't the case, advertising wouldn't exist. People almost never consider all the options available to them, merely a short list which is usually presented to them either explicitly or subconsciously. You would be very surprised to know that there is nothing random about how the goods in a supermarket are laid out, it's all geared towards manipulating human behaviour and impulses.

Check out game sales figures and their advertising budgets. You may notice something of a link. Games with veyr small advertising budgets rarely sell large volumes.

Once more, I'm already aware of the things you're saying. I'm well aware of the planned layouts of supermarkets, Ikea, the music being played, the type of music changing depending on time of day, etc etc. I'm not discounting any of that. What I'm saying is conjecture, is that the people making these arguments are ill-informed of the market. Sure, no-one knows about every single game out there. But I'm again saying that people, like myself, with knowledge of essentially all the same information as you, still come to the conclusion that sexism and lack of diversity in gaming is an issue.

As a final note - a large part of your posts is this consistent assumption that people who disagree with you only do so because they are lacking in knowledge. This is absolutely not the case, and I'd ask you to change gears on that.

 

[Jesterscup]

Granted I don't consider a female character having a D-cup and wearing a frazetta bikini to be sexist. That gets categorized as 'fun' and 'entertaining' in my books. DOubly so if she's over 6ft tall in game scale.

The thing is you don't get to decide whats not sexist. White People don't get to decide whats not racist. The fact you "don't see a problem does not mean its not there. Clearly if you have never seen anything in a game you consider to be sexist, you shouldn't get to decide either.

and the definition is pretty clear too ( same in regards to pron btw, there is a clear legal definition) it is such:

1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women. 2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender

So it boils down to one side saying. This is sexist, the other side saying. 'I don't see it' you must be mistaken. And so the mature discourse grows from there. WHich is why I prefer my stance... 'Not caring'. Is do you find it sexist... good for you. now go away i'm trying pull off a 38 8 hit air juggle combo to super combo finisher for the achievement.

You're not simply "not caring " though are you? you are actively taking a stance which, if I may paraphrase

"please don't take away my scantily clad overly-proportioned sex objects!"

For the record, a 'D' cup on a 6ft tall woman is unlikely to be considered "huge", a 4 foot 6 woman who's a size 8 ( uk size, I think thats a US 0? ) then it's a bit bigger ( "big perhaps" ), but as cup-size is actually a comparison between the measurement over the nipples compared with below the breasts, then perhaps you'd be looking at "GG" or "FF". If you plan on talking about breast sizes in a non-sexist way, try to understand a little about them.

 

[remnant_phoenix]

If you were trying to be an activist for your agenda, you might annoy some people, but that doesn't deprive you of the right to be an activist; being an activist of any kind means riling of feathers and annoying and/or making enemies of some people. That's just the way it works.

And I have to say that for you to say that you know what her REAL agenda is and that she's just being passive-aggressive about it is quite presumptuous.

She does think that there should be more female protagonists and mentions it in other videos, but she doesn't mention this the "Women as background decoration" video that we are discussing (unless you actually believe your presumptuous nonsense about knowing her real angle and claiming that she's just being passive-aggressive about it).

And how exactly does expressing the opinion "there should be more fleshed-out female characters in video game narrative" translate into "try to force developers to create more main female characters?" That's like saying that if I express the opinion "Chocolate is the superior flavor of ice cream" then I'm trying to force people to change their minds about ice cream flavors. People put their opinions out there; other people are free to agree/disagree/dismiss. If developers are swayed by her opinions, that's up to them and there's nothing you can do about it, unless you want to restrict her free speech by censoring her.

So there are only two possibilities. Either she's completely ignorant about videogames (still...) or extremely intellectually dishonest trying to push an agenda. How else can you explain whining about female characters not being fleshed-out when in 90+% of videogames not even the main character is fleshed out?

I am an activist, but still I don't try to force my ideology on other people when I'm talking about a hobby or act like a self-righteous asshole all the time trying to moderate everything that comes out of people mouths. Because unlike armchair activists I get off my ass and do something about it when there's a problem instead of whining on the internet and making every discussion about my self-righteousness. I've helped in the organization of a self-managed factory, tear gassed by cops repeatedly and still have never tried to passive-aggressively control everything about how the industry of my favorite hobby runs by spamming people on the internet. And it's even worse if you remember that this isn't her hobby, she just found a way to make money and force her message on a community.

And please stop using the assumption argument. I'm not making assumptions I'm reaching conclusions based on her intellectually dishonest behavior and her own statements about her goals.

I don't know how else to say it without repeating myself, but this will be my final word as we seem to be simply talking past each other and misunderstanding one other.

Her complaints aren't focused the specific examples that she features in video clips. Her complaints are about the overall trend of how females are portrayed across video game narrative as a whole. As general rules (i.e. "trope," the subject of the series) females in video game narrative a far more often robbed of agency and treated as sexual objects, and, in her view, this is a social problem worthy of being discussed and hopefully changed. Though I don't agree with every things she says in her videos, I agree with this principle.

If you disagree her goal, or the way she goes about her goal, that's fine. Let's just agree to disagree and stop arguing circles around each other.