The core problem with Tropes vs Women in Video Games

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
11,231
5,883
118
Country
United Kingdom
BinDipper said:
Then we factor in the larger context that she is a political figure who actively declares her intent to change the industry, and suddenly the idea that she might want to encourage censorship of some form isn't very farfetched. I suppose you could call this part extrapolation/interpretation.
But that's politics, be clear and consistent in your message or different people will interpret it in different ways. Anita is not clear and consistent in her message so different people have interpreted it in different ways.
It's pretty absurd to blame her for interpretations that you have drawn.

She did not say something. You inferred it, and then assumed it was in her message.

BinDipper said:
My conclusion was that the interpretation that Anita advocates for censorship is completely legitimate and I've shown that's 100% correct.
And I disagree, people do wish, they just don't have the means to act on their wishes. And the ones that do, will.
It is based entirely-- entirely-- on your own assumption. You cannot lay that on her, unless you equally assume that everybody who criticises art wants it censored.

In fact, I would have as much basis to assume that you want to have Anita Sarkeesian censored.

BinDipper said:
In any case encouraging people to self-censor on the grounds that it'll be less offensive to your political beliefs is still advocating censorship. It could easily be said that Anita has taken action against freedom of thought.
Lucky for you I wasn't talking about that directly.
It could indeed easily be said. Many things could easily be said, regardless of the evidence in their favour.
 

Guerilla

New member
Sep 7, 2014
253
0
0
Ben Lyons said:
The thing is you don't get to decide whats not sexist. White People don't get to decide whats not racist. The fact you "don't see a problem does not mean its not there. Clearly if you have never seen anything in a game you consider to be sexist, you shouldn't get to decide either.
Wow, that statement is both racist and sexist. So not only we don't have the right to offer an opinion but your post pretty much implies that there can be no racism or sexism against white people and males. Which means you must be pretty outraged by this story because racism against white people doesn't exist and even if it does they have no right to offer an opinion on it:

He was called ?poor white trash? and ?white *****,? tormented until he was eventually fired and stripped of his teaching credentials.

That?s what former Prince George?s County, Md., teacher Jon Everhart claimed in his racial-discrimination lawsuit against the county school board, alleging that the black principal at Largo High School forced him out of his job, according to the Washington Post. He was ultimately awarded $350,000 in the case.

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/08/white_md_teacher_called_white_trash_wins_350_000_discrimination_lawsuit.html
 

Six Ways

New member
Apr 16, 2013
80
0
0
BigTuk said:
Six Ways said:
Much like racism., there is a lot of grey area and those so inclined to see things as sexist, or non sexist will parse the grey as either black or white. I can say I've ever seen a game that I would consider sexist. Racist yes, anti-semetic, yes, Ppolitical propaganda.. oh hell yes, but sexist. Nope. Can't say I have.
Well, given it's subjective, that's entirely your affair. But hopefully you're aware that many (maybe even most) would consider that a very extreme view. I think very, very few people would claim that they haven't found anything in any game ever to be sexist.

Granted I don't consider a female character having a D-cup and wearing a frazetta bikini to be sexist. That gets categorized as 'fun' and 'entertaining' in my books. DOubly so if she's over 6ft tall in game scale.
Just as a female playable character is not automatically non-sexist, what you describe there is conversely not automatically sexist. There's nothing inherently sexist about D-cups, bikinis or 6ft tall women. 6ft, large-breasted, bikini-wearing women can be portrayed in any manner of fair, sexist or full-on hateful ways.

WHich is why I prefer my stance... 'Not caring'. Do you find it sexist... good for you. now go away i'm trying pull off a 38-hit air-juggle combo to super combo finisher for the achievement.
I have to disagree there. The fact that you personally may not care, doesn't mean it's correct to ignore those who do. For example - the existence of slavery in the world does not affect me personally, but I still take the stance that it's wrong and should be fought.

I have too many of my own worries, stresses and problems to take on the stresses aorries and problems of other people.
Likewise, I have many worries of my own. One must always pick ones battles with social issues etc, and one person's priorities differ from others'. Again though - that doesn't mean I don't care.
 

Wan Shi Tong

New member
Sep 2, 2014
26
0
0
Bolo The Great said:
I would encourage those uneasy about the bullshit inheriet to these types of critiques of gaming to look up what happened when Science was invaded with similar people. Go read up on "The Science Wars".

Here is Richard Dawkins quite nicely explaining some of the abusrdity of these psudo-scientific, intellectually masturbatory ideas:


the language sound familiar? "Privilege, masculine, rape" etc. Don't let these ideas seep to far into gaming. They are NONSENSE.
You present this video as if Dawkins is responding to legitimate criticism, and pointing out how funny it is (because it's stupid).

Yet, as I watch this, it just seems like someone was taking the piss and posting fake arguments for a laugh and he took it too seriously.

I can't decide which interpretation is more believable.
 

Wan Shi Tong

New member
Sep 2, 2014
26
0
0
I actually started reading on it already, read the whole wiki and started looking at some old papers for reference. They called scientists "science warriors".

I'm having so much fun learning about this, I can't stop reading, you made my day.
 

ForumSafari

New member
Sep 25, 2012
572
0
0
FutureExile said:
I've been watching Anita Sarkeesian's Tropes vs Women in Video Games. While it's far from terrible, the more I watch the more I believe the series isn't all that insightful or offers very much in the way that will have have permanent relevance to the overall culture of video games.
Well that's one problem with it. The other is that it's not fit for purpose; too inaccurate, opinionated and badly researched to be used as an educational resource (the stated aim) and way too dry to be casual entertainment.
 

C.S.Strowbridge

New member
Jul 22, 2010
330
0
0
Wan Shi Tong said:
You present this video as if Dawkins is responding to legitimate criticism, and pointing out how funny it is (because it's stupid).

Yet, as I watch this, it just seems like someone was taking the piss and posting fake arguments for a laugh and he took it too seriously.

I can't decide which interpretation is more believable.
Read his response to Elevatorgate and keep in mind that there are 13 countries in this world where it is a capital offense to be an atheist. According to the logic he used when talking about Elevatorgate, no atheist should complain about creationism being taught in school, yet he does all of the time.

I think Dawkins just has issues with women and feminism and I just don't trust his opinions on these subjects.
 

Rayce Archer

New member
Jun 26, 2014
384
0
0
You don't need to like video games to criticize them. Think about high school English. Were you an avid fan of every work by every author you read? No. But you did your homework anyway. Was that disingenuous of you? Of course not, you don't need to love something to pick it apart academically. The oft-raised complaint that "Anita doesn't even LIKE games" doesn't hold water because she doesn't NEED to.

I also don't think the Cherry Picking argument is fair, because you don't need to call out positive examples when you criticize something. The idea that you do is a facet of weak, bleeding heart media consumerism, the same kind of limp-wristed approach to fact delivery that sees the the film press describe Roman Polansky as a child-drugging pedophile who nonetheless made some really good movies, as though that makes him better than a hack who rapes kids. The fact that You play as a woman who isn't nude and who treats another female principle respectfully in Mirror's Edge DOESN'T NEED TO ENTER INTO a discussion of whether the God of War games objectify women, because whether Mirror's Edge existed or not, God of War could still objectify women (which it often does, gleefully).

NOW ON THE FLIP SIDE.

I don't like how she announces that an argument is unassailable just because. This is rhetorically poor. Her insistence that narrative can't excuse tropes is also kind of shallow, for instance that the presence of prostitutes in both LA Noire and GTA is equally offensive. In GTA hookers are basically Mario Question Blocks with vaginas, there to give you health and dispense money when hit, while prostitutes in LA Noire are characters, and reasonable ones to meet since you ARE a policeman. In fact I would argue that narrative excuses a lot of what she doesn't like, which brings me to...

She doesn't seem to bother much with plot beyond what Wikipedia tells her. This is important since often a story will add wrinkles that very much change how we see characterization. For instance, in Bioshock, Dr. Tannenbaum superficially looks like a hodgepodge of offensive female stereotypes- an untrustworthy scheming old maid who has a heart of gold for little orphans. But the plot puts a VERY plausible origin together for her that makes that more than the sum of its parts.

I also don't care much for her presentation style. Like Moviebob (sorry, Bob) she has a penchant for derisively laughing at stuff that deserves it, and like Bob it comes across as forced and arrogant. She also works a very pundit-ey "this guy gets me, wink wink nod" speaking method that I find offputting and I can imagine does her no favors with people who DON'T agree with her. And if I wanted to be catty, I'd point out the irony of a lady ripping up the male idealized image of women in media while equipped with eyebrows so laser-sharp in their shaping that you could slice cobalt on them. IF I wanted to be catty.

So in summary, she has a right to do what she does and I don't think her own values make her work invalid, but she really should try harder and play it a bit more straight, IMO.
 

Jesterscup

New member
Sep 9, 2014
267
0
0
Guerilla said:
Ben Lyons said:
The thing is you don't get to decide whats not sexist. White People don't get to decide whats not racist. The fact you "don't see a problem does not mean its not there. Clearly if you have never seen anything in a game you consider to be sexist, you shouldn't get to decide either.
Wow, that statement is both racist and sexist. So not only we don't have the right to offer an opinion but your post pretty much implies that there can be no racism or sexism against white people and males. Which means you must be pretty outraged by this story because racism against white people doesn't exist and even if it does they have no right to offer an opinion on it:


He was called ?poor white trash? and ?white *****,? tormented until he was eventually fired and stripped of his teaching credentials.

That?s what former Prince George?s County, Md., teacher Jon Everhart claimed in his racial-discrimination lawsuit against the county school board, alleging that the black principal at Largo High School forced him out of his job, according to the Washington Post. He was ultimately awarded $350,000 in the case.

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/08/white_md_teacher_called_white_trash_wins_350_000_discrimination_lawsuit.html
That was not my intention, and I apologise as such. Had I been clearer and inserted "against group" I would hope that you would not take such issue with it. For instance a white human saying that a comment is not racist to a non-white human ( or vice versa ), a male saying a comment is not sexist to a female ( or vice sersa ) etc etc....
Seriously we've had this conversation in our society goodness knows how many times

So let me rephrase to this perhaps:
"It is inappropriate for members of an external social group, to arbitrarily decide that something is or is not a form of discrimination to those of another social group"

Yes I accept that I fell into a common trap that I myself dislike. At no point was it my intention to carry across the implication that discriminatory issues do not affect any one group. In fact as I mentioned previously these are issues I deal with regularly and on a personal level.

on another note, and because it's in context
As for legal definition..yeah that changes from state to state and from country to country. I mean would you believe how many countries have it on their books that a Man cannot be raped by a woman... it's quite shocking.
Here in the UK for one.

We are dealing with some serious and complex issues, and that often means that no group is entirely right or wrong. I was forced to leave twitter due to abuse from feminists and feminist groups for standing up and making this point, the classic "story" is that sexual offenders are male, and that victims are female. Now this fits with the feminist agenda, to the point where I received a lots of abuse (I, at several points was called a 'rape apologist' for this) for pointing out that not all survivors are female and that it's estimated that 15% of men are also survivors of abuse. By portraying the survivors of abuse as women, by making it a woman's issue those 15% are discriminated against when they need help and support that simply doesn't exist because support is geared primarily towards women.

When I perform I dress in a highly stylised way, Personally I wouldn't say in a provocative manner, yet during every performance there is at least one attempted to molest me (seriously every single time), and I receive abuse if I don't "put out", and the majority of this is by women (say 65-35 split). This is me doing something that I enjoy, its me doing my job. Yet I'm bombasted by certain feminists because I'm a guy, because I don't get that abuse everyday. It's not acceptable for me to suffer that, it's not acceptable for anyone to suffer that. So yes I'm very clearly and painfully aware that men can suffer from this to.
 

Guerilla

New member
Sep 7, 2014
253
0
0
Ben Lyons said:
That was not my intention, and I apologise as such. Had I been clearer and inserted "against group" I would hope that you would not take such issue with it. For instance a white human saying that a comment is not racist to a non-white human ( or vice versa ), a male saying a comment is not sexist to a female ( or vice sersa ) etc etc....
Seriously we've had this conversation in our society goodness knows how many times

So let me rephrase to this perhaps:
"It is inappropriate for members of an external social group, to arbitrarily decide that something is or is not a form of discrimination to those of another social group"

Yes I accept that I fell into a common trap that I myself dislike. At no point was it my intention to carry across the implication that discriminatory issues do not affect any one group. In fact as I mentioned previously these are issues I deal with regularly and on a personal level.
But even this way of thinking is very wrong. Based on it, in the story I posted the judge should have banned any black jurors from deciding on the case. People should also have ignored the articles from any black journalists because their opinion doesn't count. Don't you understand that this kind of mentality segregates and assumes that people are biased based on their color?
 

Jesterscup

New member
Sep 9, 2014
267
0
0
Guerilla said:
Ben Lyons said:
That was not my intention, and I apologise as such. Had I been clearer and inserted "against group" I would hope that you would not take such issue with it. For instance a white human saying that a comment is not racist to a non-white human ( or vice versa ), a male saying a comment is not sexist to a female ( or vice sersa ) etc etc....
Seriously we've had this conversation in our society goodness knows how many times

So let me rephrase to this perhaps:
"It is inappropriate for members of an external social group, to arbitrarily decide that something is or is not a form of discrimination to those of another social group"

Yes I accept that I fell into a common trap that I myself dislike. At no point was it my intention to carry across the implication that discriminatory issues do not affect any one group. In fact as I mentioned previously these are issues I deal with regularly and on a personal level.
But even this way of thinking is very wrong. Based on it, in the story I posted the judge should have banned any black jurors from deciding on the case. People should also have ignored the articles from any black journalists because their opinion doesn't count. Don't you understand that this kind of mentality segregates and assumes that people are biased based on their color?
Firstly I'd ask what you propose instead?

Secondly there are many many cases out there (I'd personally pick the whole trans V. feminist thing going on currently) where one group is being told that they cannot suffer from a form of discrimination from another external group.

I'm not saying that you can't say that something IS a form of discrimination towards another group/person. In fact as a society it's something we need to be doing, and something that leads to conversations like this. The opinions of others groups should/must be listened to. But the denial of abuse or discrimination is tantamount to discrimination itself.

Yes there is a VERY blurred line here, I don't want to segregate people, but we also need to acknowledge, even celebrate, our differences. Thats not an easy place to find, one wrong step in either direction leads to injustice. Part of finding this place is accepting when another says they are being wronged, rather than rejecting it.
 

Guerilla

New member
Sep 7, 2014
253
0
0
Ben Lyons said:
Firstly I'd ask what you propose instead?

Secondly there are many many cases out there (I'd personally pick the whole trans V. feminist thing going on currently) where one group is being told that they cannot suffer from a form of discrimination from another external group.

I'm not saying that you can't say that something IS a form of discrimination towards another group/person. In fact as a society it's something we need to be doing, and something that leads to conversations like this. The opinions of others groups should/must be listened to. But the denial of abuse or discrimination is tantamount to discrimination itself.

Yes there is a VERY blurred line here, I don't want to segregate people, but we also need to acknowledge, even celebrate, our differences. Thats not an easy place to find, one wrong step in either direction leads to injustice. Part of finding this place is accepting when another says they are being wronged, rather than rejecting it.
I propose not to judge people's opinions based on their race or gender. Never EVER do that.

Denying discrimination is just another opinion. It can be right and it can be wrong. When it's wrong then I agree, it's some form of discrimination itself. But when it's right, it's just right. Tumblr has created an army of professional victims that always feel oppressed and discriminated, you can't possibly ask society to take all these people seriously and never disagree with their claims of discrimination. That's not how the world works and it shouldn't, claiming discrimination doesn't give someone a carte blanche, you actually have to prove it just like with every other claim or accusation.
 

generals3

New member
Mar 25, 2009
1,198
0
0
Ben Lyons said:
The thing is you don't get to decide whats not sexist. White People don't get to decide whats not racist. The fact you "don't see a problem does not mean its not there. Clearly if you have never seen anything in a game you consider to be sexist, you shouldn't get to decide either.
Let me guess non men/whites get to decide what is sexist/racist? The irony would be too strong.

You're not simply "not caring " though are you? you are actively taking a stance which, if I may paraphrase

"please don't take away my scantily clad overly-proportioned sex objects!"

For the record, a 'D' cup on a 6ft tall woman is unlikely to be considered "huge", a 4 foot 6 woman who's a size 8 ( uk size, I think thats a US 0? ) then it's a bit bigger ( "big perhaps" ), but as cup-size is actually a comparison between the measurement over the nipples compared with below the breasts, then perhaps you'd be looking at "GG" or "FF". If you plan on talking about breast sizes in a non-sexist way, try to understand a little about them.
Wait a sec, is there a way to talk about breasts in sexist way? Enlighten me.
 

Jesterscup

New member
Sep 9, 2014
267
0
0
Guerilla said:
I propose not to judge people's opinions based on their race or gender. Never EVER do that.
I agree. I could easily play devils advocate here but I'm not going to.
However this definition needs extending/elaborating.
In addition does the reverse apply? can you judge a group based on their opinions?

Denying discrimination is just another opinion. It can be right and it can be wrong. When it's wrong then I agree, it's some form of discrimination itself. But when it's right, it's just right. Tumblr has created an army of professional victims that always feel oppressed and discriminated, you can't possibly ask society to take all these people seriously and never disagree with their claims of discrimination. That's not how the world works and it shouldn't, claiming discrimination doesn't give someone a carte blanche, you actually have to prove it just like with every other claim or accusation.
But who then decides who is right and who is wrong?
But when it's right, it's just right.
Man Thats so dangerous... So dangerous.... and you know it is, don't make me explain this.

No I can't ask society to take all the people seriously and not disagree, but I can ask it to talk, to listen. Because we do still have discrimination.
 

Guerilla

New member
Sep 7, 2014
253
0
0
Ben Lyons said:
Guerilla said:
I propose not to judge people's opinions based on their race or gender. Never EVER do that.
I agree. I could easily play devils advocate here but I'm not going to.
However this definition needs extending/elaborating.
In addition does the reverse apply? can you judge a group based on their opinions?
If it's a racial group of course not, you don't choose how you're born and you shouldn't be judged for that, ever. If it's an ideological group though sure you can. When you choose to subscribe to a certain ideology it means you agree with it and its followers. You can choose to unsubscribe too if it loses its path so yes, people can judge that kind of group based on their opinion.


But who then decides who is right and who is wrong?

We decide just like every other opinion, by looking at the proof and discussing it to death. :)


Man Thats so dangerous... So dangerous.... and you know it is, don't make me explain this.

No I can't ask society to take all the people seriously and not disagree, but I can ask it to talk, to listen. Because we do still have discrimination.
But why is it dangerous, noone denies that discrimination in general exists (well, not the rational people) but in a case by case scenario we sure can. Why does the mere mention of discrimination makes some people think that we can't be skeptical about it? Murder is way more serious than discrimination and people don't have these kinds of demands, when you accuse someone of murder people immediately ask you for proof.
 

Jesterscup

New member
Sep 9, 2014
267
0
0
Guerilla said:
But why is it dangerous, noone denies that discrimination in general exists (well, not the rational people) but in a case by case scenario we sure can. Why does the mere mention of discrimination makes some people think that we can't be skeptical about it? Murder is way more serious than discrimination and people don't have these kinds of demands, when you accuse someone of murder people immediately ask you for proof.
Why is it (the "when its right its just right" statement ) dangerous? Because without being able to examine and explain why something is right or wrong end can easily get into ground that is both wrong and troubling.

Do you think the nazis though they were the bad guys? ( ok lets not go there, I couldn't resist for the point of the video below.)



But we have kinda got to the point, or a point at least. I don't think the writers etc of games are 'sexist' or 'lazy' , they are just unaware of some of the issues, partly due to cultural imbalance in the workplace. If there is no-one in the room to say "hang on thats not only a bit tired, but also demeaning, can we try this instead" , then the conversation is not happening where it should, for games development at least.
 

Six Ways

New member
Apr 16, 2013
80
0
0
Bolo The Great said:
Wan Shi Tong said:
Bolo The Great said:
I would encourage those uneasy about the bullshit inheriet to these types of critiques of gaming to look up what happened when Science was invaded with similar people. Go read up on "The Science Wars".

[snip]

the language sound familiar? "Privilege, masculine, rape" etc. Don't let these ideas seep to far into gaming. They are NONSENSE.
[snip]
[snip]
I don't think this is a valid comparison. Science is either right or wrong*. Sexism, racism etc are meaningless concepts when considering physical laws.

Games aren't like this at all - there is no right or wrong in games, and likewise no right or wrong when it comes to sexism in them. They're an art form (or entertainment medium, etc etc) and as such can be critiqued in any way one likes.

In short, those concept are indeed 'nonsense' in science**. They are not in games.

*Massive oversimplification, I know. But it's a close enough approximation for this point.

**Just as a note - scientists can be racist, sexist etc and attempt to corrupt the scientific method for an agenda.

***I've forgotten how to use footnote tags...