The Counterpoint

[Andy Shandy]

Grey and Cory are baiting the forums again?

Anyone have popcorn?

I have plenty.

Now let us enjoy.

But to have something to say vaguely related, instead of both sides complaining at each other, why not work together and complain about both things at once?

 

[mdqp]

Honestly you wouldn't need to do too much work to the character to swap genders aside from some story elements like backstory. I mean there's already an archetype for these kinds of female characters:

Spoiler

Should I take that as a "no" to my question? If so, then the question remains, what would be considered a good character? I mean, if it's so easy to point out the flaws, it shouldn't be that hard to at least have some ideas on this or that character to fix her.

I have a few ideas of my own, but I am more interested in listening to other's people opinions, rather than sharing mine.

That picture is wonderful, by the way. Where does it come from?

 

[franksands]

There is a difference between being portrayed unrealistically, and being portrayed demeaningly my fellow Y chromosome owners.

Exactly what I wanted to say. Actually, Movie Bob from "The Big Picture" says it a lot better:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/5950-Tropes-vs-MovieBob

If any of you still thinks that "men are also exploited" is a valid counter argument, please watch the video.

 

[The Lunatic]

I'd argue that there is divide, the female sex drive is vastly different in terms of what it wants and what its looking for. That said, there is common ground, like David Tennant, or John Barrowman.

Seems more one of personal tastes, to be honest.

Personally, I find people like Kratos to be rather ugly. And yeah, Tennant is cute.

I have a female friend that holds the opposite opinion.

I don't think genders themselves affect one's ability to hold opinions and tastes.

 

[Fappy]

Honestly you wouldn't need to do too much work to the character to swap genders aside from some story elements like backstory. I mean there's already an archetype for these kinds of female characters:

Spoiler

Should I take that as a "no" to my question? If so, then the question remains, what would be considered a good character? I mean, if it's so easy to point out the flaws, it shouldn't be that hard to at least have some ideas on this or that character to fix her.

I have a few ideas of my own, but I am more interested in listening to other's people opinions, rather than sharing mine.

That picture is wonderful, by the way. Where does it come from?

It's a character from Conan the Destroyer. She's interesting because she's probably the only female character in those movies that's not really sexualized in anyway. I suppose it is a "no" considering most men would not find the above picture "attractive", but that doesn't mean some men/women wouldn't and it doesn't necessarily mean fem-Kratos wouldn't work as a character. However, any sexual themes in her character/story would have to be handled carefully... I'd imagine it would be very easy to fall into the trap of "male character in a female body".

 

[Rainboq]

I'd argue that there is divide, the female sex drive is vastly different in terms of what it wants and what its looking for. That said, there is common ground, like David Tennant, or John Barrowman.

Seems more one of personal tastes, to be honest.

Personally, I find people like Kratos to be rather ugly. And yeah, Tennant is cute.

I have a female friend that holds the opposite opinion.

I don't think genders themselves affect one's ability to hold opinions and tastes.

I'm not referring to gender, but to a person's sex, there's a massive difference. That said, personal taste does factor into it, but you can't forget authorial intent. Kratos was meant as a fantasy persona for men, as evidenced by how he's characterized (and the sex minigame).

 

[franksands]

I think this debate has been raised a lot of times, but maybe I missed a similar question and the answers to it, so I am going to put this one here:

What would be considered a good heroine? Let's say we put a woman in Kratos's situation, what should she do to be considered a good character (for the look, I think anything would be fine, let's say something not needlessly skimpy, and probably a fit body, but nothing too oversexualized)? If she did exactly the same things as Kratos, would that make everyone happy?

Any female character from Atomic Robo. I'd specially point out The Sparrow.

 

[The Lunatic]

I'm not referring to gender, but to a person's sex, there's a massive difference. That said, personal taste does factor into it, but you can't forget authorial intent. Kratos was meant as a fantasy persona for men, as evidenced by how he's characterized (and the sex minigame).

Same thing in common conversation.

Nor is it hard to work out if you hold loftier definitions.

I don't think authorial intent is all that big of a factor to be honest. It may nudge, but, it doesn't render interpretation completely moot.

Added to that, people have different perceptions of authorial intent.

For some Kratos is a character to ogle and assuming one is of a submissive personality, the sex game is almost like a fan fiction with a female character they could insert themselves into the role of.

I suppose it's an unconventional thing however.

Women tend to be held to standards in which such a thing is unacceptable. That's where the issue is, I suppose.

 

[OfficialJab]

-his life isn't exactly a happy one-
-look like a living boulder-

What would be considered a good heroine?

The point isn't that anyone would want his exact life or shape, but that the average mind (male or not) is enticed by the topic of revenge (see:every God of War game) and physical might. The story and body for this argument are symbols of what people desire - not what they actually desire.

A good heroine would be Samus, if she didn't take her suit off all the time. That's not saying you shouldn't see your hero's body, but again, she'd be a symbol that how they look is 100% irrelevant to their capabilities. I like Lightning from FF13 a lot, but whenever there was a shot of her miniskirt/legs, I was disappointed slightly by the male audience pandering.

 

[mdqp]

Any female character from Atomic Robo. I'd specially point out The Sparrow.

Isn't that a comic character? I meant videogame characters, sorry if I wasn't clear (I might take a look at that, though, because it sounds interesting).

 

[Irridium]

See, I'm puzzled. People (usually men) always say men are just as objectified and it's just as bad, yet men are almost always the big damn heroes who save the day while being awesome while women are almost always side characters who exist primarily for eye-candy (if they even appear on screen at all).

These don't seem like equal problems.

When women buy games in the same numbers as men do, then things will change. The issue will not be addressed until there is money in it for the industry to do so. Its about catering to the audience that spends more, right now, that's men. Sorry ladies.

Of course one can argue that its because of this misrepresentation that women don't buy games in the same numbers as men, and that the cycle is a vicious circular reference.

According to what I can dig up, women make up almost half of the general gaming audience. About 47%, and one of the fastest growing markets. If the ESA is to be believed, at least.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp

They're buying, and playing, games just almost as much as men (I wouldn't be surprised if it was pretty much equal by the end of the year). The audience, and money, is there.

 

[Grahav]

Sure men may be objectified, but they're objectified for men. The main objection that feminists have isn't about objectification itself, but that it caters primarily to men.

After following the links (thanks Grey) I think that the objetification and stereotypes that are done by men for men do damage as well, but in a different way. Since it "desirable" to be an expendable, blank "300" or "Call of Duty" soldier is a male fantasy why fight against it?

 

[mdqp]

The point isn't that anyone want his exact life or shape, but the average mind (male or not) is enticed by the topic of revenge (see:every God of War game) and physical might. The story and body for this argument are symbols of what people desire - not what they actually desire.

A good heroine would be Samus, if she didn't take her suit off all the time. That's not saying you shouldn't see your hero's body, but again, she'd be a symbol that how they look is 100% irrelevant to their capabilities. I like Lightning from FF13 a lot, but whenever there was a shot of her miniskirt/legs, I was disappointed slightly by the male audience pandering.

I am not particularly attracted to physical might and revenge (this last one I could almost find offensive for being considered a "male" thing... Also, I have seen my fair share of vengeful women in my life), so I guess this boils down to what the majority is like, and I can't say I have any numbers with me pro or against it, so I am going to go with you on this one, but I am not entirely convinced.

Samus isn't a bit like Gordon Freeman? A little too much of an empty vessel to be considered a character (also, this would raise again my previous question: would it be enough to switch gender to solve all problems? I don't see Samus doing anything too different from, let's say, Alucard, just to name the other half of the "metroidvania" world).

Edit: I can't believe I wrote "Morgan" instead of "Gordon"... It's just that he is too awesome, so he is always in my mind, I guess...

 

[Lvl 64 Klutz]

On a lighter note (no pun intended), the woman in panel 2 looks like she's being attacked by a fire piranha, and now I want to see a SyFy monster movie featuring fire piranhas.

 

[OfficialJab]

According to what I can dig up, women make up almost half of the general gaming audience. About 47%, and one of the fastest growing markets. If the ESA is to be believed, at least.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp

They're buying, and playing, games just almost as much as men (I wouldn't be surprised if it was pretty much equal by the end of the year). The audience, and money, is there.

Different markets, I'd imagine. For the purposes of surveys, something like FarmVille will count as well. But even further from that, you'd need to break down genres. How high a percentage of the AAA-action genre is male/female? I'd wager significantly different from 60/40. To some extent, females may feel isolated from those games just because the heroes are men, but how many?

However, the 'fastest growing market' point is hugely valid, and more female representation in general will probably start to appear. I'm banking on CoD to allow female characters online, if that isn't already implemented (I don't think it is, but I don't really play).

I am not particularly attracted to physical might and revenge (this last one I could almost find offensive for being considered a "male" thing...

Samus isn't a bit like Morgan Freeman? A little too much of an empty vessel to be considered a character.

I said male or not, not being female. Whether you're a woman or man, the physical strength to overcome someone who wrongs you is just a human desire. Not for 100% of the crowd maybe, but even for them it stimulates something.

Their personalities aren't really being discussed here, because it's a case-by-case whether their gender is incorporated into the story enough for it to matter. I'd say GF is a good example as well, because gender isn't exploited in any way. I don't think dialogue too often enforces the stereotyping. Maybe that's not true, but I can't think of any examples.

 

[Rainboq]

I'm not referring to gender, but to a person's sex, there's a massive difference. That said, personal taste does factor into it, but you can't forget authorial intent. Kratos was meant as a fantasy persona for men, as evidenced by how he's characterized (and the sex minigame).

Same thing in common conversation.

Nor is it hard to work out if you hold loftier definitions.

I don't think authorial intent is all that big of a factor to be honest. It may nudge, but, it doesn't render interpretation completely moot.

Added to that, people have different perceptions of authorial intent.

For some Kratos is a character to ogle and assuming one is of a submissive personality, the sex game is almost like a fan fiction with a female character they could insert themselves into the role of.

I suppose it's an unconventional thing however.

Women tend to be held to standards in which such a thing is unacceptable. That's where the issue is, I suppose.

That's not really the case, as the player is controlling Kratos, and the mini game pretty much panders to men.

Also, gender is your identity, sex is what you are, they are massively different and conflating the two is a huge mistake.

And as a counterpoint to that argument, look at Bayonetta.

 

[Moth_Monk]

You'd think that the users here would take the hint from the comic: The reason why fire is the metaphor used is because this comic is flame bait...

 

[Rainboq]

Sure men may be objectified, but they're objectified for men. The main objection that feminists have isn't about objectification itself, but that it caters primarily to men.

After following the links (thanks Grey) I think that the objetification and stereotypes that are done by men for men do damage as well, but in a different way. Since it "desirable" to be an expendable, blank "300" or "Call of Duty" soldier is a male fantasy why fight against it?

I agree that it does damage, but look at the figures provided, the ideal 'manly man' in the USA is generally perceived as a muscled stoic figure.

 

[Something Amyss]

Actually, it's an excellent counterpoint. The entire implied premise of the original assertion (Women are depicted badly in media) is that a gender disparity exists.

And a disparity does exist. Most, if not all of the counterclaims are false equivalence.

 

[Rainboq]

You'd think that the users here would take the hint from the comic: The reason why fire is the metaphor used is because this comic is flame bait...

Doesn't mean that a few reasonable conversations can't take place.