OfficialJab said:
I agree that there are a lot of different kinds, but you're admittedly saying that one isn't really worth talking about, even though it's the dominating discussion. A lot of the issues that women bring up about representation in gaming is that they're mostly balloon-chested and skinny, and that's worth addressing.
It's not just in the 'porn games' like DoA Volleyball, but something like Bayonetta or Ninja Gaiden illustrates the same problem - their leads are strong and independent, there are complex stories, but they're still guilty of oversexualizing. However, the porn games don't have to do it either, let alone have to exist in the first place. The fact that their business model is built around it shouldn't exempt them from blame, or discussion.
Not that what we say here will change anything, anyways.
But if we're only discussing the other one, I'm not denying the existence of character-based stereotyping, but saying that they're both pretty equal. I actually mentioned somewhere in here that a franchise like CoD (by-and-large is just fine) can reduce their footprint in this mess by introducing female characters for the online component - just making them 100% the same, other than using a female voice actor. That would ring true for just about every major series.
I was with a lot of people who were a little disappointed that GTAV doesn't star a female, actually. We had no reason to expect it, other than they're sorely overdue for it, and they're ironically pretty good at avoiding this whole thing. I'd say Fallout is close to being a gold standard for equality - gender and otherwise.
TLDR-
There is character stereotyping with no visual stereotyping.
There is visual stereotyping with no character stereotyping.
They both get out of hand from time to time.
I think we actually agree, we're just focused on different things.
Now that we are talking about games like Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden, I might be more inclined to agree with you. I mean, it's the games that don't exactly sell themselves as "a feast for the eyes" so to speak, that are really the issue here. Who cares how man and women are represented in porn? That would be silly, they are there to cater to the sexual fantasies (the keyword is "fantasy" here) of the audience. I think they are harmless, they don't really have a hidden message, or something that could misinterpreted: everything is upfront, and cleary false, too (the pizza guy usually isn't a sex machine, and those who order a pizza aren't just women whose "husband isn't home right now" or whatever the current "plot" is). They are specifically built to please someone, and demand anything from them means that you clearly aren't their target to begin with, and nothing should be done about it (it's a relatively free world, with people relatively free to film what they want).
Do I believe that developers should start to open their minds a little on the way they deal with their characters? Sure. Some would point out as the inevitable consequences of an almost completely male industry might be responsible for this, and in vicious circle, the current status of the industry discourages women from finding a job in it, preventing them from bringing their point of view on the matter in a more direct manner. It sounds like an excuse, but probably accounts for part of the problem.
I was mainly speaking about character, because I feel that's where the problem really lies: Some women do have huge, ahem, "assets", so I can get over it, somehow (I hate all that bikini chainmail bullshit, though), but when they turn women into either nymphomaniac or completely incompetent just to appeal to certain parts of the audience, I surely feel the issue, too. Actions are what define characters, for the most part, and that's the real problem in most games. It's a matter of scale, with far too women not being legitimate characters since their actions condemn them at marginal or secondary roles (or they simply feel wrong, in the rare chance when they get the main role).
RPGs generally shine in this department (I love the Fallout series, although I have a few issues with Fallout 3... I haven't tried New Vegas, yet), with most of them doing a good job at leaving the main character relatively alone and leaving you to shape him/her yourself. But since in an RPG you directly and indirectly have far more control over the protagonist compared to other genres, they don't provide a good benchmark for the whole spectrum of games.
Of course, there are all kind of ways to make a character wrong, I just feel that the pandering isn't really worth being mentioned, it's like the infamous booth babes, eyecandy for the sake of itself, and easily avoided. Is the more subtle (and sometimes less subtle) appearance of characters without substance around other genres, that cause the problems.
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