The Democratic Primary is Upon Us! - Biden is the Presumptive Nominee

Tireseas_v1legacy

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At 49.8% of Nevada reporting, OP has been updated to reflect the current CCD percentages. I'll update later once the reporting puts it at or near 100% later this week.

tstorm823 said:
tf2godz said:
Wow, that is quite an asshole move, especially from a politician. "You see I don't care your vote doesn't matter." That is basically what he's saying by skipping Nevada.
It's not quite like that. Bloomberg announced his candidacy so late, the other candidates had spent the better part of a year in the first 4 states to vote ahead of him, so he conceded them as a lost cause. It wasn't "your votes don't matter", it was "there's not enough time for me to campaign here."
In more than a few cases, he formally announced after the filing deadlines, so he wasn't eligable to run in the first place.
 

Silvanus

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Agema said:
Bloomberg and Biden appear to be fighting over the same voters, as Bloomberg's rise is clearly responsible for Biden's vote collapse.
How does that square with Biden failing badly in states where Bloomberg didn't run?

It seems likelier to me that Biden's strength came from a largely unchallenged perception that he was a safe pair of hands-- moderate-to-centre, electable, experienced... and that the exposure of the Primary campaign exposed that perception to be off-target and unrealistic.
 

Schadrach

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Marik2 said:
I really hope Bernie gets the nomination.
There's one specific possibility that worries me. And that's if after the primaries Sanders has a plurality (but not majority) of delegates.

If there's no majority then come the convention there's a second vote and that 15% unpledged delegates get involved, as well as the other delegates being "brokered" around. Which would effectively mean the DNC gets to pick whoever the DNC feels like. If that's not the frontrunner, it will depress the Dem vote and likely get us a second round of Trump.
 

Seanchaidh

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Schadrach said:
Marik2 said:
I really hope Bernie gets the nomination.
There's one specific possibility that worries me. And that's if after the primaries Sanders has a plurality (but not majority) of delegates.

If there's no majority then come the convention there's a second vote and that 15% unpledged delegates get involved, as well as the other delegates being "brokered" around. Which would effectively mean the DNC gets to pick whoever the DNC feels like. If that's not the frontrunner, it will depress the Dem vote and likely get us a second round of Trump.
Such a scenario would make 1968 look like 2004. And it could totally happen.
 

tstorm823

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Schadrach said:
If that's not the frontrunner, it will depress the Dem vote and likely get us a second round of Trump.
To be fair, the Democrats could do everything right and still end up losing to a second round of Trump. The man does have a net positive approval rating at the moment, and incumbency is an advantage.
 

Agema

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Silvanus said:
How does that square with Biden failing badly in states where Bloomberg didn't run?

It seems likelier to me that Biden's strength came from a largely unchallenged perception that he was a safe pair of hands-- moderate-to-centre, electable, experienced... and that the exposure of the Primary campaign exposed that perception to be off-target and unrealistic.
We certainly could take the notion that Biden's support drifted away to other candidates roughly proportionally, and that Bloomberg then took away from the other candidates also proportionally, so that Biden experienced a net loss, Bloomberg a similar net gain, and everyone else was mostly evens. I'd bet some of that sort of vote shifting happened to at least some extent, but ultimately I'd suggest Biden just lost a huge chunk of votes direct to Bloomberg.

Biden's collapse (at a national level) really appears at the start of February, losing half his support in about two weeks. However, this is not necessarily mirrored by state results. Given preceding polls, according to national trends we'd have expected Biden's results to be about 10%, 7-8% and 12% respectively for Iowa, New Hampshire and Nevada. His actual results were ~16%, 8% and 20% (with Buttigieg seeming to have been the largest beneficiary). Thus I would suggest Biden's disappointing state results so far are better than nationwide polls would indicate he should have done, and I would further suggest that Bloomberg not being on the ballot is a significant factor why.

I'm not sure anything about perception of Biden has changed much. He's mostly... "dull", occasionally a doofus, and his rude explosion at some audience member recently is nothing he hasn't done several times before. I'm not sure there's anything obvious that happened in February to change perceptions of him: no major screw up or embarrassment. The worst might be that something about his son in Ukraine could come back to bite, but that was hardly new in Feb 2020.

I don't think anything about the primary campaign has made Biden seem worse. He's been solid and uninspiring in debates, not made any more gaffes than normal, etc. Normally, when well ahead, being boringly safe is often a winning tactic, like football teams playing for time when they're 2-0 up. I don't think there is anything to explain his collapse except an entrant to the race who steps on his territory: Sanders and Warren have always been appealing to a different bloc within the party, and all the other guys are (relatively) little league nobodies and chancers. But Bloomberg is a big name with a major political record who would carry an aura of competence from his billions and his time as NY mayor, and offers something to Democrats who want a safe, major brand to head the ship later in the year.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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I don't buy that Biden "collapsed", the guy has been running for president for 30 years and this has been his best performance in all of his attempted runs, he never made it higher than fourth place before. People just were hyping him up because he's the establishment but we tried that with Hilldog last time and it didn't go so well lol.
 

Avnger

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tstorm823 said:
The man does have a net positive approval rating at the moment
If you're going to lie, at least make it something harder to disprove.

538 average: 43.3% Approval; 52.1% Disapproval

RCP average: 47.5% Approval; 51.2% Disapproval
 

Agema

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Dreiko said:
I don't buy that Biden "collapsed", the guy has been running for president for 30 years and this has been his best performance in all of his attempted runs, he never made it higher than fourth place before. People just were hyping him up because he's the establishment but we tried that with Hilldog last time and it didn't go so well lol.
Biden consistently polled approaching 30% vote share for a year and then dropped to just over 15% in the space of 10 days. What else do you call that if not a collapse?

However, I think you're right that he was coasting on being the safe, establishment candidate. When an alternative centreist brand showed up, it revealed how thin enthusiasm for him really was.
 

Agema

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tstorm823 said:
To be fair, the Democrats could do everything right and still end up losing to a second round of Trump. The man does have a net positive approval rating at the moment...
He really doesn't.

Trump has scored positive approval ratings in at least some polls since early 2018 at a rate of a few a month (often by Rasmussen). Unfortunately, the other 95% show him negative, and usually heavily negative. Using poll averages, he's still in the area of -10. Granted, that's slightly up on the -12 he's been lodged at for most of the last two years.

He will do better in terms of votes, however, because whilst plenty of Republicans may disapprove of him, they'll still take a shit Republican president over any Democratic president.
 

Seanchaidh

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Agema said:
I don't think anything about the primary campaign has made Biden seem worse.
His collapse became precipitous right around the time he had a dust-up with Bernie Sanders over the remarkable differences in their records and public comments concerning social security, just before the Iowa caucuses. While I think much Biden support is going to Bloomberg simply because most of his support is shallow and uncommitted, people getting to know Biden better is also a big driver of his collapse. Shallow is a natural constituency for a candidate whose main strength is having billions of dollars to burn running misleading advertisements, but it also tends to shrink over the course of a campaign as people start to pay more attention. It's no accident that Bernie overtook Biden just in time for the primaries to start actually having results.

[tweet t="https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/1232102333267562496"]
 

Gergar12_v1legacy

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Bloomberg, the racist, sexist, fascist authoritarian with more sexual harassment lawsuits than Trump, a crappier criminal justice record than Biden, and is a bootlicker for billionaires more than Steyer.

If he or anyone else including Warren wins the nomination via an undemocratic contested convention, you would have to drag me to the voting booth to get me to vote for those establishments go to candidate.
 

Kwak

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Avnger said:
tstorm823 said:
The man does have a net positive approval rating at the moment
If you're going to lie, at least make it something harder to disprove.

538 average: 43.3% Approval; 52.1% Disapproval

RCP average: 47.5% Approval; 51.2% Disapproval
Perhaps the keyword 'net' has some magical power to change that data.
 

Agema

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Seanchaidh said:
His collapse became precipitous right around the time he had a dust-up with Bernie Sanders over the remarkable differences in their records and public comments concerning social security, just before the Iowa caucuses.
Maybe. The clash seems to have been mid-January, but Biden held up in the polls robustly for a week or two after (even accounting for polls to be published a few days up to a week after data collection). Although I accept that could reflect time for information and argument to sink in.

His fall starts pretty much right on the Iowa caucuses. A little part of me wonders whether his poor performance, behind Buttigieg, seriously damaged the confidence of a lot of weak supporters who are simply looking for a "not Sanders" candidate, so they jumped ship to the perceived next most credible. I wouldn't be surprised if, should Bloomberg wilt under scrutiny, they'll return to Biden.
 

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Kwak said:
Avnger said:
tstorm823 said:
The man does have a net positive approval rating at the moment
If you're going to lie, at least make it something harder to disprove.

538 average: 43.3% Approval; 52.1% Disapproval

RCP average: 47.5% Approval; 51.2% Disapproval
Perhaps the keyword 'net' has some magical power to change that data.
I would point out that those who disapprove of Trump are unlikely to vote against him. Most would not just vote. Maybe that would make it a net positive approval rating
 

tstorm823

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Avnger said:
tstorm823 said:
The man does have a net positive approval rating at the moment
If you're going to lie, at least make it something harder to disprove.

538 average: 43.3% Approval; 52.1% Disapproval

RCP average: 47.5% Approval; 51.2% Disapproval
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/02/23/politics/donald-trump-2020-poll-of-the-week/index.html

Just mentioning the news. I dont lie on here.
 

TrulyBritish

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tstorm823 said:
Avnger said:
tstorm823 said:
The man does have a net positive approval rating at the moment
If you're going to lie, at least make it something harder to disprove.

538 average: 43.3% Approval; 52.1% Disapproval

RCP average: 47.5% Approval; 51.2% Disapproval
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/02/23/politics/donald-trump-2020-poll-of-the-week/index.html

Just mentioning the news. I dont lie on here.
I don't particularly want to get involved in this conversation, but I thought I'd add something to the discussion by noting a few points of interest with the sourced article.
1) The rise in approval in the article proper refers to two Gallup polls which now show net-positive. The article itself notes that in the aggregate Trump's approval is at 45% (to a net of -6, up from -12) which is consistent with what Avnger stated, making neither of you wrong per se.
2) The poll linked in the article is about Trumps Job approval, so for context I thought I'd link their graphs for people to discuss.

and broken down by affiliation:
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Seanchaidh said:
Such a scenario would make 1968 look like 2004. And it could totally happen.
It would almost certainly signal the end of the Democratic party for at least a generation. This election is looking more and more like 1876 by the day. If the DNC screws Bernie, I'd absolutely support him running third-party this year, I'm completely over Democratic right-wing bullshit.

Also, fuck this $3,000/ticket donkey show being offered up to the American public as a "debate". I've seen more authenticity on a Taco Bell menu, and I've certainly enjoyed mornings after a hell of a lot more. These MF's want to ring the neocon dinner bell over Cuba, and they want to talk health care, they can sack up and talk about Cuba's higher life expectancy and lower infant mortality, too.
 

tstorm823

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TrulyBritish said:
1) The rise in approval in the article proper refers to two Gallup polls which now show net-positive. The article itself notes that in the aggregate Trump's approval is at 45% (to a net of -6, up from -12) which is consistent with what Avnger stated, making neither of you wrong per se.
Pointing out that the current number being reported is a recent blip that may disappear and does little on its own to move the average for his whole term is perfectly valid. But I did in fact say "at the moment", and calling me a liar is a bit of a step beyond making that point.
 

Trunkage

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Eacaraxe said:
Seanchaidh said:
Such a scenario would make 1968 look like 2004. And it could totally happen.
It would almost certainly signal the end of the Democratic party for at least a generation. This election is looking more and more like 1876 by the day. If the DNC screws Bernie, I'd absolutely support him running third-party this year, I'm completely over Democratic right-wing bullshit.

Also, fuck this $3,000/ticket donkey show being offered up to the American public as a "debate". I've seen more authenticity on a Taco Bell menu, and I've certainly enjoyed mornings after a hell of a lot more. These MF's want to ring the neocon dinner bell over Cuba, and they want to talk health care, they can sack up and talk about Cuba's higher life expectancy and lower infant mortality, too.
But... Castro was only evil... he did nothing to help his people. It's why he stayed in power for so long...

/sarcasm

Make you wonder though. The Kims in North Korea... how much of it is just the normal smear campaign. If we aren't meant to trust the media, then they're probably lying about NK as well.

But then, I've been pointing out that Fake News was always been a thing. It's not new and it was definitely Fake before the 1980s. America right now is just pretending it was truthful back then