The Democratic Primary is Upon Us! - Biden is the Presumptive Nominee

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Gethsemani said:
The problem here is that the Republican party during Obama's administration showed that stonewalling and refusing compromise actually works. The right in most of the Western world has since adopted the Republican tactic of not budging and refusing flexibility because it works. Being the other party and being so flexible that you essentially give up your own goals for the sake of some virtue in compromise is not smart, in common parlance that's 'being a doormat'.
Whataboutism and slippery slope deployment noted.

I'll just tell you what I tell Hillary dead-enders and Biden voters: you keep right on with those decades-old, proven-loser, strategies and refusing to even entertain the notion a change of tact might be necessary and proper to resolve what you argue are existential policy issues. We'll just see where your insistence on pride over policy takes you. You'll be doing it without me and others like me who regard you as complicit by way of hubris, and when your brilliant strategy of doing the same thing over and expecting different results inevitably fails, I'll be blaming you.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Eacaraxe said:
Whataboutism and slippery slope deployment noted.
Not when your argument hinges on talking to the opposition in different ways to get them on board. If the opposition is dead set on considering anything you say wrong, there's nothing you can say to make them think you're right. And changing policy to get closer to them is what has been tried with the alt right and far right in Europe. Turns out that the ones who benefited from centrists embracing some of their policies wasn't the centrist, but the parties they tried to stop by doing so.

So your brilliant strategy is dead in the water because it has already been proven not to work. Obama tried and failed. A lot of European centrist parties have tried and are now worse off because all they did was provide legitimacy to those they wanted to stop.
 

Seanchaidh

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The central question of this primary turns out to be whether the Democrats are smart enough not to nominate a senile rapist in order to try to defeat Donald Trump. Can they do it despite the media's utter failure to report on Joe Biden's cognitive decline and various problems with sexual harassment and assault? Personally, I'd be a never on Biden even without that stuff. But with? This is a no-brainer. Pick a better candidate, holy shit. Just because the Democratic Party often performs like the Washington Generals doesn't mean they have to try to lose.
 

Silvanus

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Eacaraxe said:
I don't when that "disagreement" is about the absolute intractability of one side to even budge on minor points of contention to achieve policy solutions, on an issue which may well determine the fate of human civilization, no.
Right. Well, let's look at what policy shifts have been accomplished, and how, with regards to environmental issues; the various species reintroduced, the partial mending of the ozone layer, the various mass-planting initiatives, the reductions in carbon emissions in some sectors, the Paris Accords. These things tend to come about as a result of greater awareness of damage and possible solutions, and public pressure as a result-- they have not come about from a concern about "petrodollars" or other financial arguments. The only actual movement we've made is a result of actual awareness of the genuine dangers.

To be frank, your average voter doesn't give a solitary shit about "petrodollars", left or right. The British Labour Party has been pointing out for ages that British financial support for Saudi Arabia puts us in danger. The argument never makes a dent.


Eacaraxe said:
What I'm arguing, is perhaps you might have paid attention to the sentence in my post you either failed to read, or conveniently ignored, yet simultaneously quoted:

me said:
"Both sides" are right, but for all the wrong reasons: global inequity, uneven distribution of wealth and resources, and cultural imperialism are a primary driver for bushmeat consumption and wet markets, and to a certain extent one state or culture ought not interfere in good faith, humane, and safe practices of others, but playing white savior to protect unsafe and inhumane practices does no good and neither does scapegoating.
This doesn't really address the question. I asked for instances of the "left" dismissing any concern about wet markets as racism, as you indicated; the links you gave in response referred to various actual instances of racism, abuse and harassment towards Asian people, as if pointing out any instances of racism in the wake of the outbreak is the same thing.
 

Seanchaidh

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/28/joe-biden-sexual-assault-allegations-why-has-media-ignored-claims

As of right now, a google search for "CNN Biden rape" returns articles from Huffpost, National Review, Reason, dailydot, and someone's medium blog post and nothing else relevant.

edit: Oh, sorry, that wasn't quite correct. At the bottom of the first page under a bunch of irrelevant CNN shit, there's this: https://www.ibtimes.com/sexual-assault-allegations-against-biden-explained-2948104
 

crimson5pheonix

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Seanchaidh said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/28/joe-biden-sexual-assault-allegations-why-has-media-ignored-claims

As of right now, a google search for "CNN Biden rape" returns articles from Huffpost, National Review, Reason, dailydot, and someone's medium blog post and nothing else relevant.

edit: Oh, sorry, that wasn't quite correct. At the bottom of the first page under a bunch of irrelevant CNN shit, there's this: https://www.ibtimes.com/sexual-assault-allegations-against-biden-explained-2948104
Well because there's a very specific outlook pervading Biden supporters right now about it (if they know about it).


 

Specter Von Baren

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I think part of the problem is that the Left can't wholeheartedly pursue climate change as an issue because they'd have to give up issues like race and wealth, which loses them constituents, and the things they'd have to implement would hurt working class people more and more immediately than it does the rich.

Seanchaidh said:
The central question of this primary turns out to be whether the Democrats are smart enough not to nominate a senile rapist in order to try to defeat Donald Trump. Can they do it despite the media's utter failure to report on Joe Biden's cognitive decline and various problems with sexual harassment and assault? Personally, I'd be a never on Biden even without that stuff. But with? This is a no-brainer. Pick a better candidate, holy shit. Just because the Democratic Party often performs like the Washington Generals doesn't mean they have to try to lose.
Unfortunately there's no good candidates still running to switch to.
 

Seanchaidh

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Specter Von Baren said:
I think part of the problem is that the Left can't wholeheartedly pursue climate change as an issue because they'd have to give up issues like race and wealth, which loses them constituents, and the things they'd have to implement would hurt working class people more and more immediately than it does the rich.
This is true only of the corporate types, like Nancy Pelosi.

Specter Von Baren said:
Seanchaidh said:
The central question of this primary turns out to be whether the Democrats are smart enough not to nominate a senile rapist in order to try to defeat Donald Trump. Can they do it despite the media's utter failure to report on Joe Biden's cognitive decline and various problems with sexual harassment and assault? Personally, I'd be a never on Biden even without that stuff. But with? This is a no-brainer. Pick a better candidate, holy shit. Just because the Democratic Party often performs like the Washington Generals doesn't mean they have to try to lose.
Unfortunately there's no good candidates still running to switch to.
Bernie Sanders is a good candidate and still running.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Silvanus said:
Right. Well, let's look at what policy shifts have been accomplished, and how, with regards to environmental issues; the various species reintroduced, the partial mending of the ozone layer, the various mass-planting initiatives, the reductions in carbon emissions in some sectors, the Paris Accords...
I'd have pointed to the prohibition of leaded gasoline and DDT, but hey, your argument, your rules. Ironic you didn't immediately jump to these two as what would be the definitive case examples of your own point, while going straight to the ozone layer. You might do well for yourself to ask what geopolitical event (and raw resource shortage) began in the early '70s, ended in the late '80s, coinciding nicely with that crisis. Bring a few textbooks on organic chemistry, and keep in mind what you use to make plastic.

To be frank, your average voter doesn't give a solitary shit about "petrodollars", left or right. The British Labour Party has been pointing out for ages that British financial support for Saudi Arabia puts us in danger. The argument never makes a dent.
They damned sure used to, and they damned well ought to again. It's rather telling you want to talk about the environmental crisis, but not petrodollars. You'd do well to ask yourself why they don't, in any level of analysis deeper than surface-level, political talking point nonsense.

This doesn't really address the question. I asked for instances of the "left" dismissing any concern about wet markets as racism, as you indicated; the links you gave in response referred to various actual instances of racism, abuse and harassment towards Asian people, as if pointing out any instances of racism in the wake of the outbreak is the same thing.
Ironic, you don't seem terribly interested in recognizing in those articles, criticism of wet markets was specifically cited as one among many "instances of racism in the wake of the outbreak".
 

Avnger

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Seanchaidh said:
Specter Von Baren said:
I think part of the problem is that the Left can't wholeheartedly pursue climate change as an issue because they'd have to give up issues like race and wealth, which loses them constituents, and the things they'd have to implement would hurt working class people more and more immediately than it does the rich.
This is true only of the corporate types, like Nancy Pelosi.
Yes, yes "Pelosi bad." Do you have any reasoning beyond your dislike of her for saying this?
 

Trunkage

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Specter Von Baren said:
I think part of the problem is that the Left can't wholeheartedly pursue climate change as an issue because they'd have to give up issues like race and wealth, which loses them constituents, and the things they'd have to implement would hurt working class people more and more immediately than it does the rich.
I?d remind people that Bill Clinton attacked a lot of climate change activists during his reign, claiming what they did was terrorism. It?s why Al Gore climate change activism rings hollow. No wonder there is so much vitriol against climate change in the US.

I?d also like to remind people that the analogy of ship planks being gradually removed and replaced is in effect here, and it?s still on going. For me, the Dems have never ALWAYS been about the working people. That wasn?t their roots and many of the planks haven?t been changed Tammany Hall is still rather prevalent in the DNC today. And it?s certainly infected the GOP. It?s why Trump?s working class lies worked so well. No one ever speaks for them, and they are desperate to glob onto something. I mean, Nixon had his own Medicare for All. It just shows how far they?ve come during the Reagan era.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Seanchaidh said:
Specter Von Baren said:
I think part of the problem is that the Left can't wholeheartedly pursue climate change as an issue because they'd have to give up issues like race and wealth, which loses them constituents, and the things they'd have to implement would hurt working class people more and more immediately than it does the rich.
This is true only of the corporate types, like Nancy Pelosi.

Specter Von Baren said:
Seanchaidh said:
The central question of this primary turns out to be whether the Democrats are smart enough not to nominate a senile rapist in order to try to defeat Donald Trump. Can they do it despite the media's utter failure to report on Joe Biden's cognitive decline and various problems with sexual harassment and assault? Personally, I'd be a never on Biden even without that stuff. But with? This is a no-brainer. Pick a better candidate, holy shit. Just because the Democratic Party often performs like the Washington Generals doesn't mean they have to try to lose.
Unfortunately there's no good candidates still running to switch to.
Bernie Sanders is a good candidate and still running.
I really don't think Bernie could win and I wouldn't want him to win in an election anyway.
 

Seanchaidh

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It would be mysterious why people consider Joe to be a good candidate if people generally knew things like this:

[tweet t="https://twitter.com/DavidAgStone/status/1244855947467485185"]

But people generally don't, so it's not that mysterious.

Avnger said:
Seanchaidh said:
Specter Von Baren said:
I think part of the problem is that the Left can't wholeheartedly pursue climate change as an issue because they'd have to give up issues like race and wealth, which loses them constituents, and the things they'd have to implement would hurt working class people more and more immediately than it does the rich.
This is true only of the corporate types, like Nancy Pelosi.
Yes, yes "Pelosi bad." Do you have any reasoning beyond your dislike of her for saying this?
Her house just passed the GOP corporate bailout. She's funded by various wealthy interests. She opposes single-payer healthcare and is a proud member of the entirely unnecessary austerity death cult (which is why instituting 'paygo' is always a priority for her). She serves the wealthy. And while in Congress she has massively increased her net worth by many millions of dollars.

[tweet t="https://twitter.com/axcomrade/status/1203749505021071360"]

If she is principled, her principles defy explanation. Since these very good reasons to dislike her are also reasons I dislike her, I guess you could say the answer is both yes and no.

[tweet t="https://twitter.com/CitationsPod/status/1240298296528318465"]

Fortunately, San Francisco has a chance to change their representative to someone better: https://shahidforchange.us/

edit: bonus Pelosi

[tweet t="https://twitter.com/elivalley/status/1246944683890278401"]
 

Seanchaidh

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Fieldy409 said:
So like, you guys still having that election this year?
Probably. Somehow we still haven't finished counting Colorado, though.
 

Silvanus

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Eacaraxe said:
I'd have pointed to the prohibition of leaded gasoline and DDT, but hey, your argument, your rules. Ironic you didn't immediately jump to these two as what would be the definitive case examples of your own point, while going straight to the ozone layer. You might do well for yourself to ask what geopolitical event (and raw resource shortage) began in the early '70s, ended in the late '80s, coinciding nicely with that crisis. Bring a few textbooks on organic chemistry, and keep in mind what you use to make plastic.
I went "straight" to the ozone layer... among several other examples which you've handily ignored. But, fine, let's focus on the specific one you think you can counter.

To be clear: you're contesting that the energy crisis (and accompanying scarcity of oil & petroleum) resulted in the degradation of the ozone layer, & that by extension we'd have been better suited to making financial arguments to fix that issue?

...Of course, the point of my argument was about effective lines of argument in solution (rather than causal factors), and the Montreal Protocol and other (highly successful) efforts to combat the depletion of ozone came about as a result of fears over the genuine dangers, not financial arguments about oil.

Eacaraxe said:
They damned sure used to, and they damned well ought to again. It's rather telling you want to talk about the environmental crisis, but not petrodollars. You'd do well to ask yourself why they don't, in any level of analysis deeper than surface-level, political talking point nonsense.
I thought your approach was to tailor your argument towards what convinces other people? Not to try to change the terms of the debate.

Eacaraxe said:
Ironic, you don't seem terribly interested in recognizing in those articles, criticism of wet markets was specifically cited as one among many "instances of racism in the wake of the outbreak".
"Ironic".

Let's have a look at what you provided, then, link-by-link.

The Queens Journal [https://www.queensjournal.ca/story/2020-03-12/opinions/racism-over-coronavirus-outbreak-is-senseless/] actually specifically criticises wet markets as dangerous and "breeding grounds for viruses".

The BBC [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51456056] only mentions wet markets in explaining how that has fed into stereotypical jokes about other things. Elsewhere, in articles that aren't specifically about racism, [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51496830] the BBC specifically highlights the dangerous role wet markets play.

The USA today [https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/18/coronavirus-sen-john-cornyn-says-chinese-eating-bats-spread-virus/2869342001/] article is about one specific statement from a senator, who doesn't even use the term.

The Eater [https://www.eater.com/2020/1/31/21117076/coronavirus-incites-racism-against-chinese-people-and-their-diets-wuhan-market] article is garbage, sure, but even they include a section condemning the "lack of hygiene and regulations" in wet markets, "undertraining", "danger".

The Psychology Today [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/valley-girl-brain/202002/what-coronavirus-teaches-us-about-racism-xenophobia-spreads] article doesn't have anything in it that links criticism of wet markets to racism.

That leaves the New York Times video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5ccbJcqlUo]... which also doesn't mention wet markets at all.

Where was this "specific citation" exactly?
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Silvanus said:
To be clear: you're contesting that the energy crisis (and accompanying scarcity of oil & petroleum) resulted in the degradation of the ozone layer, & that by extension we'd have been better suited to making financial arguments to fix that issue?
Was my writing in any conceivable way ambiguous?

Comparative petroleum scarcity and cost during the energy crisis contributed to the continued proliferation and use of ozone-depleting chemicals less-reliant on petroleum-based precursors, and when that scarcity was alleviated by the end of the energy crisis the transition was to cheaper, safer, and easier to manufacture products. This would be why halocarbon replacements are hydrocarbons. Which is why the "sanctions" in the Montreal Protocol -- such as they were, pointless -- never "had" to be evoked.

The Montreal Protocol was smoke and mirrors, a nominally-binding resolution absent meaningful consequences for offending states, a lesson we should have taken to heart when it was discovered last year China was breaking the protocol on the down-low and nothing has been done, and the US has been fracking for over a decade with zero fucks given by anyone outside the environmental lobby. Hence why, despite headlines, ozone repletion is and remains stunted. It's a "feel good" letter designed to quiet discontent, not fix problems.

Which, thinking about it, I'd add "acid rain" to my list of "shit you should have thought about, but didn't". Really, it speaks volumes to the level of awareness and sincerity of the environmental lobby in general, so little attention is drawn to the acid rain program during carbon taxation debates of the past twenty years.

I thought your approach was to tailor your argument towards what convinces other people? Not to try to change the terms of the debate.
This is why you should actually be talking to conservatives, not banging your head against what your perception of conservatives is. Petrodollars is out of the popular lexicon; conservatives can and do still care about it, albeit through the post-9/11 filter of radical Islamist terror. Itself a popular topic of wokescolding and polarization by way of "Islamophobia" or just straight "racism", as a convenient well-poisoning strategy to prevent meaningful discussion on a topic.

For example, know how any and all criticism of Israeli policy and Israel's role in the Israel-Palestine conflict is quickly and mercilessly shouted down as antisemitism by the Zionist right and left? Know how annoying that is? Same shit; just because your side employs the strategy, whilst oil companies benefit (and they do), doesn't make it correct, necessary, proper, or really anything but useful idiocy to toxic interests.

Which is my point: the left's entire regime for climate change debate is a top-down state of controlled opposition and useful idiocy of, by, and for the fossil fuels industry. Head-banging against a firewall, using decades-old and well-countered talking points by rote, indoctrinated to the point of refusing to understand their designed-to-fail nature, nor the irony of continuing to play by a book dictated in no small part by the fossil fuels industry itself. What I'm saying, is stop being a goddamn useful idiot.

Where was this "specific citation" exactly?
Perhaps you might read again what you just wrote.
 

crimson5pheonix

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I swear, if, for some reason, Trump opens up Medicare for all while the Dems dither about ACA, they'll look the absolute dumbest.
 

Agema

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Seanchaidh said:
If she is principled, her principles defy explanation. Since these very good reasons to dislike her are also reasons I dislike her, I guess you could say the answer is both yes and no.
At least her true justification is hidden in that ramblingly ineffectual waffle: GWB had sky high approval ratings and massive public support, so there was no chance of impeaching him.
 

Seanchaidh

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Agema said:
Seanchaidh said:
If she is principled, her principles defy explanation. Since these very good reasons to dislike her are also reasons I dislike her, I guess you could say the answer is both yes and no.
At least her true justification is hidden in that ramblingly ineffectual waffle: GWB had sky high approval ratings and massive public support, so there was no chance of impeaching him.
He of course did not maintain that for his whole presidency, notably.