The Divide

[Owyn_Merrilin]

snip

No, what's cute is that you're attempt at being condescending by referring to my actions as "cute". What's not so cute is the baseless accusation that someone made the word to intentionally sound smart when you really don't know that, maybe this person legitimately believed it was the best way to get the meaning across. It's not like you would know otherwise.

At any rate, your implication seems to be that people can't make up words...Even though people do it all the damn time. It's how languages are built and formed.

"Implosion"? Fuck that, clearly that asshole scientist just wanted to sound smart, let's go with "inward explosion" instead!

Except there's a massive difference between a scientist and a games as art hipster. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the whole kerfuffle over games as art is nothing but a bunch of insecure nerds trying to look mature and failing harder than it should be possible to fail. As C.S. Lewis would say, true maturity comes when you don't care whether people think you look immature or not. Too many gamers are still in that "wanting to appear very grown up" stage.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

snip

No, what's cute is that you're attempt at being condescending by referring to my actions as "cute". What's not so cute is the baseless accusation that someone made the word to intentionally sound smart when you really don't know that, maybe this person legitimately believed it was the best way to get the meaning across. It's not like you would know otherwise.

At any rate, your implication seems to be that people can't make up words...Even though people do it all the damn time. It's how languages are built and formed.

"Implosion"? Fuck that, clearly that asshole scientist just wanted to sound smart, let's go with "inward explosion" instead!

Except there's a massive difference between a scientist and a games as art hipster. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the whole kerfuffle over games as art is nothing but a bunch of insecure nerds trying to look mature and failing harder than it should be possible to fail. As C.S. Lewis would say, true maturity comes when you don't care whether people think you look immature or not. Too many gamers are still in that "wanting to appear very grown up" stage.

So a scientist creates a word to mean something and that's fine

A "Games are art hipster" (As you so eloquently put it) makes a word to mean something and suddenly it's just him trying to look smart? Again, how do you know this? It sounds like you're just making up reasons to ***** and complain about a group of people at this point.

Or maybe I've just been active in the community for a while and know the sort of person who goes crazy over the term? Pray tell how my assessment of the "games as art" debate is inaccurate. There's a certain class of gamer who has a persecution complex about their hobby. That class is the one that is most gung ho about games being art. Why is that?

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

snip

No, what's cute is that you're attempt at being condescending by referring to my actions as "cute". What's not so cute is the baseless accusation that someone made the word to intentionally sound smart when you really don't know that, maybe this person legitimately believed it was the best way to get the meaning across. It's not like you would know otherwise.

At any rate, your implication seems to be that people can't make up words...Even though people do it all the damn time. It's how languages are built and formed.

"Implosion"? Fuck that, clearly that asshole scientist just wanted to sound smart, let's go with "inward explosion" instead!

Except there's a massive difference between a scientist and a games as art hipster. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the whole kerfuffle over games as art is nothing but a bunch of insecure nerds trying to look mature and failing harder than it should be possible to fail. As C.S. Lewis would say, true maturity comes when you don't care whether people think you look immature or not. Too many gamers are still in that "wanting to appear very grown up" stage.

So a scientist creates a word to mean something and that's fine

A "Games are art hipster" (As you so eloquently put it) makes a word to mean something and suddenly it's just him trying to look smart? Again, how do you know this? It sounds like you're just making up reasons to ***** and complain about a group of people at this point.

Or maybe I've just been active in the community for a while and know the sort of person who goes crazy over the term? Pray tell how my assessment of the "games as art" debate is inaccurate. There's a certain class of gamer who has a persecution complex about their hobby. That class is the one that is most gung ho about games being art. Why is that?

Okay first off I want you to back up and read your last two posts again. Do you not see them for the broad generalizations that they are?

Secondly, how exactly does this tie in to "Ludonarrative Dissonance" Not being a good word to use? It contains the same number of syllables as "Story and Game play dissonance" and does not carry the chance of people confusing it with "Story and game play segregation"

Thirdly, so what if some people feel smarter for saying it? Some people also feel smarter because they read Atlas Shrugged. Does that mean Objectivitism is just a hokey political philosophy for people who want to look smarter than they are?

No, Objectivism is a hokey political "philosophy" for selfish assholes, but that's another story entirely.

As for how "ludonarrative dissonance" ties into the games as art debate, it's kind of central to it. It's a name for a concept which is important to the idea of dissecting games the way one would film or literature, but it's a newer and more obtuse term than the old "gameplay and story segregation" term, which as I've said many times, conveys the same idea in a simpler manner. The people who picked up on it, by and large, are huge on the idea of games as art. And sure, what I said is a generalization. It's just one that holds true pretty much without exception. Can you honestly say that it's not a term that wouldn't appeal to the kind of people I described?

Ultimately, the debate boils down to whether we should use a simple word that does the job perfectly, or a fancier word that does the same job, but in a harder to understand manner, which some people might take as sounding smarter. It's Hemingway vs. Faulkner, and I've always been on Hemingway's side in that debate.

 

[Requia]

Does anyone else miss this comic focusing on Erin being crazy?

No, but I miss when it had a focus on ludonarrative dissonance.

Who is this journalist that's getting all the praise?

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

As for how "ludonarrative dissonance" ties into the games as art debate, it's kind of central to it. It's a name for a concept which is important to the idea of dissecting games the way one would film or literature, but it's a newer and more obtuse term than the old "gameplay and story segregation" term, which as I've said many times, conveys the same idea in a simpler manner.

And it has already been explained to you why they do not convey the same idea.

Story and game play segregation is when the story is kept separate from the game play, usually manifesting in only being told through cut scenes (to get an idea of this, go play any of the Ratchet and Clank games.)

Ludonarrative dissonance is when the themes of the narrative and the way the game is played directly contradict one another. Basically MLP fighting games. The theme is "Friendship is magic" The game play is "Clobber everyone who isn't you".

Except that's not how the term is actually used. In actual use, it's identical to Ludonarrative Dissonance. Besides, I'd be fine if people were arguing we should call it "gameplay and story dissonance." It's the "ludonarrative" part that I take issue with. Does the phrase "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" mean anything to you?

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Except that's not how the term is actually used.

people misusing it has nothing to do with it's intended purpose. If you see someone use it this way, calmly explain it to them that they are misusing it, and what it actually means.

It's the "ludonarrative" part that I take issue with. Does the phrase "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" mean anything to you?

It does now, thanks to the magic of Google, you know that thing that lets people learn more about ideas, words, or concepts that they aren't familiar with?

Edit: Also if you can use "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" in your argument and still get your intended meaning across, then why not "Ludonarrative"?

Because Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness is intentionally wordy to get the point across that people who exhibit the trait are being overly wordy. And no, what I described is not a misuse of the term "gameplay and story segregation." It is the intended use. The classic example is how you can't use a Phoenix Down to save Aeris. You'll note that that's also the classic example of ludonarrative dissonance, because they're the same concept.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Well it looks like Journalists get the Star power while the cartoonist...

*puts on sunglasses*

...works for Peanuts

Heh...much better than the comic, sadly.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Except that's not how the term is actually used.

people misusing it has nothing to do with it's intended purpose. If you see someone use it this way, calmly explain it to them that they are misusing it, and what it actually means.

It's the "ludonarrative" part that I take issue with. Does the phrase "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" mean anything to you?

It does now, thanks to the magic of Google, you know that thing that lets people learn more about ideas, words, or concepts that they aren't familiar with?

Edit: Also if you can use "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" in your argument and still get your intended meaning across, then why not "Ludonarrative"?

Because Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness is intentionally wordy to get the point across that people who exhibit the trait are being overly wordy. And no, what I described is not a misuse of the term "gameplay and story segregation." It is the intended use. The classic example is how you can't use a Phoenix Down to save Aeris. You'll note that that's also the classic example of ludonarrative dissonance, because they're the same concept.

Actually not using the phoenix down is closer to a contrivance than it is gameplay/story segregation, and certainly doesn't quality as ludonarrative dissonance.

Are you messing with me, or what? That's the textbook example. In the gameplay, a phoenix down will revive anyone after death. But because the story demands it, it doesn't work when a certain character dies in a cutscene. Hence, ludonarrative dissonance: the ludonarrative and the regular narrative clash.

 

[maxben]

Okay so this came up on Address the Sess and now here, does someone want to explain to me what this Luddonarrative Dissonance bullshit is?

It's a term people throw around when sounding edified is more important to them than actually getting their meaning across.

I don't think so. Jargon has its uses, it concisely gets the point across to the people who have studied or understand it. I think often times people forget about the fact that people outside the bubble are going to be confused. So instead of one word/phrase, you need to use a couple of sentences to get the same point across, which is sometimes hard to remember.

As someone in philosophy I have faced this situation many times even with relatively well known words such as "utilitarianism".

I just don't feel that people who trip up and forget to address their audience appropriately are doing it because thy are snobs.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Except that's not how the term is actually used.

people misusing it has nothing to do with it's intended purpose. If you see someone use it this way, calmly explain it to them that they are misusing it, and what it actually means.

It's the "ludonarrative" part that I take issue with. Does the phrase "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" mean anything to you?

It does now, thanks to the magic of Google, you know that thing that lets people learn more about ideas, words, or concepts that they aren't familiar with?

Edit: Also if you can use "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" in your argument and still get your intended meaning across, then why not "Ludonarrative"?

Because Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness is intentionally wordy to get the point across that people who exhibit the trait are being overly wordy. And no, what I described is not a misuse of the term "gameplay and story segregation." It is the intended use. The classic example is how you can't use a Phoenix Down to save Aeris. You'll note that that's also the classic example of ludonarrative dissonance, because they're the same concept.

Actually not using the phoenix down is closer to a contrivance than it is gameplay/story segregation, and certainly doesn't quality as ludonarrative dissonance.

Are you messing with me, or what? That's the textbook example. In the gameplay, a phoenix down will revive anyone after death. But because the story demands it, it doesn't work when a certain character dies in a cutscene. Hence, ludonarrative dissonance: the ludonarrative and the regular narrative clash.

Ludonarrative dissonance refers to a clash of theme and gameplay, not plot and gameplay. The theme is not the plot.

Citation? "ludonarrative" literally means "gamestory," not "gametheme." Something tells me that after all the time you spent defending the term, it's confusing enough that you don't fully understand it yourself.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Except that's not how the term is actually used.

people misusing it has nothing to do with it's intended purpose. If you see someone use it this way, calmly explain it to them that they are misusing it, and what it actually means.

It's the "ludonarrative" part that I take issue with. Does the phrase "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" mean anything to you?

It does now, thanks to the magic of Google, you know that thing that lets people learn more about ideas, words, or concepts that they aren't familiar with?

Edit: Also if you can use "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" in your argument and still get your intended meaning across, then why not "Ludonarrative"?

Because Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness is intentionally wordy to get the point across that people who exhibit the trait are being overly wordy. And no, what I described is not a misuse of the term "gameplay and story segregation." It is the intended use. The classic example is how you can't use a Phoenix Down to save Aeris. You'll note that that's also the classic example of ludonarrative dissonance, because they're the same concept.

Actually not using the phoenix down is closer to a contrivance than it is gameplay/story segregation, and certainly doesn't quality as ludonarrative dissonance.

Are you messing with me, or what? That's the textbook example. In the gameplay, a phoenix down will revive anyone after death. But because the story demands it, it doesn't work when a certain character dies in a cutscene. Hence, ludonarrative dissonance: the ludonarrative and the regular narrative clash.

Ludonarrative dissonance refers to a clash of theme and gameplay, not plot and gameplay. The theme is not the plot.

Citation? "ludonarrative" literally means "gamestory," not "gametheme." Something tells me that after all the time you spent defending the term, it's confusing enough that you don't fully understand it yourself.

Here you go

http://clicknothing.typepad.com/click_nothing/2007/10/ludonarrative-d.html

This is the guy who first came up with the term. I warn you, the post is quite long, you'll likely be spending some time reading, assuming you really care about being right at this point.

Dude, four paragraphs in:

To cut straight to the heart of it, Bioshock seems to suffer from a powerful dissonance between what it is about as a game, and what it is about as a story. By throwing the narrative and ludic elements of the work into opposition, the game seems to openly mock the player for having believed in the fiction of the game at all. The leveraging of the game?s narrative structure against its ludic structure all but destroys the player?s ability to feel connected to either, forcing the player to either abandon the game in protest (which I almost did) or simply accept that the game cannot be enjoyed as both a game and a story, and to then finish it for the mere sake of finishing it.

Note that he said story? Also note that "narrative" is closer to a synonym for "story" than it is "theme[footnote]It effectively does mean story, but with the connotation of one told in a linear manner.[/footnote]." If he had wanted to coin a term specifically about themes, he probably would have gone with something like "ludothematic dissonance," not "ludonarrative dissonance."