The Ethics of "Project Harpoon"

Recommended Videos

Olas

Hello!
Dec 24, 2011
3,226
0
0
DizzyChuggernaut said:
1. So what you're saying is that people should stop using the internet for social networking?
Seems like a good idea to me.

Although if you insist on social networking, you could also just not upload actual pictures of yourself. Or you could upload actual pictures of yourself and just not give a fuck if some people digitally edit it and repost it somewhere else.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
2. It's not acceptable either way, but at least the original set of images used fictional characters.
Why isn't it "acceptable"?

DizzyChuggernaut said:
3. Why not? Can I take photos of people I find in the street, post them around for all to see? Is that okay?
Is it not? We're talking about a picture of someone in public... being made public... what's the issue? If the person didn't want to be seen, for whatever reason, they shouldn't have gone out in public. It seems like all you're doing is pointing an arrow at something everyone can already see.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
Why do release forms exist? When you redistribute private photos with the intention of mockery, inviting the scrutiny of thousands of viewers, how is that not harassment?
The "intention" isn't something we can know, and nothing about the photo's seemed offensive to me. Simply taking something already put out in public and placing it on a pedestal isn't really making any sort of definitive statement, so if it's harassment at all, it seems like one of the weakest forms of harassment I've ever heard of.

Is a yearbook photo harassment? Is someone being caught on video in the background of a news broadcast harassment? The only thing that makes these different is the presence of an alternate, thinner version as well. Which seems possibly flattering, possibly creepy in a stalkery kind of way, but not really offensive. At least I don't see how it could be interpreted as offensive.
 
Sep 13, 2009
1,589
0
0
VanQ said:
No, they shouldn't be free. Block, report them and move on. Don't post news articles and make threads everywhere giving them the attention and glory they desire. Jesus christ, this isn't hard.
As far as I can tell there's one thread here, and it was started by someone who personally knew someone who got their picture broadcast. People post about shitty things that happen to them and their friends all the time. The fact that a lot of people are doing it makes it more of a relevant story.

Plus, this whole business was born out of disdain for the fat acceptance movement. They've inadvertently helped justify it. If anyone's anyone's hurt by talking about this, it's the people who had enough of an issue with overweight models to act like shitheads over it.
 

someguy1231

New member
Apr 3, 2015
256
0
0
DizzyChuggernaut said:
1. You're literally saying that people should put a handicap on their online experiences because of the slim chance that some asshole will do something like this to them. I'm pretty sure people can do without that sort of paranoia. The people who had the audacity to post photos of themselves are not in the wrong here and I am astounded by how people are turning this whole thing around on them.

2. Yeah but the inspiration for this movement involved video game characters. Maybe they should've used a better example.

3. Please tell me that you can see the difference between feminist crybabies complaining about a shirt a guy chose to wear which they can choose not to look at, and people having their photos taken without permission and subsequently directly ridiculed to fuel an internet trolling campaign.
1. I'm not saying they should. I'm saying they should be aware of the risks and possibilities that inevitably come with posting pictures of yourself on the internet.

2. Frankly I'm surprised something like this hadn't been done earlier by 4chan. Like I said, the video game characters were hardly the first to have this done to them. It's also been done to real-life celebrities and comic book characters. Maybe the video game one was just "the last straw", so to speak, especially because that one got much more online attention than those other ones. (Oh, and as someone who visited most of those sites that gave it attention, almost all of the comments people had were negative, even on sites that are usually sympathetic to feminism/social justice.)

3. I'm not talking about photos taken without permission here. Those are never acceptable, regardless of who they are or what's done with them. I'm talking only about people who intentionally put photos of themselves online in a publicly available place. Stop trying to conflate the two. There's a world of difference between them. If you really can't handle the possibility of someone doing something you don't like with your photograph, then don't post them where anyone with an internet connection can see them. Simple as that.
 

Olas

Hello!
Dec 24, 2011
3,226
0
0
Kathinka said:
The Almighty Aardvark said:
Ah, is ee. Thanks.

I wouldn't describe this as impossible though. I've seen people lose a silly amount of weight, and the results were absolute changes in looks. I think you underestimate how much of a person is really chub and how little is bones.

I think it depends on the person. The picture you posted shows one example of how someone with a small bone structure can be obese, but that doesn't mean all obese people have a small bone structure.

I think if you can feel your ribs, but not see them, you're in the healthy body range regardless of objective size. Though don't quote me on that.
 

Dizchu

...brutal
Sep 23, 2014
1,277
0
0
Olas said:
DizzyChuggernaut said:
2. It's not acceptable either way, but at least the original set of images used fictional characters.
Why isn't it "acceptable"?
I'm unsure of the legality but I think in both instances the use of underhanded tactics to promote an agenda is something that should be widely criticised. And funnily enough, the use of fattened video game characters to promote an agenda was criticised. But here? I see a lot of people blaming the victim. At least Lara Croft and Tifa Lockhart are fictional and can't be victimised.

Is it not? We're talking about a picture of someone in public... being made public... what's the issue? If the person didn't want to be seen, for whatever reason, they shouldn't have gone out in public. It seems like all you're doing is pointing an arrow at something everyone can already see.
So why do film crews ask for permission to film members of the public? Why do peoples' faces get blurred out if they've refused permission? Why do people blur out profile pictures and names from user comments? I'm not saying it's illegal to parade people around without permission, but if anything the blame is not on the people who dared show themselves in public. I know asking for this level of common human decency from the edgy 12 year olds that currently occupy 4chan is pretty laughable, but why should everyone else throw away their standards just because they do?

The "intention" isn't something we can know, and nothing about the photo's seemed offensive to me. Simply taking something already put out in public and placing it on a pedestal isn't really making any sort of definitive statement, so if it's harassment at all, it seems like one of the weakest forms of harassment I've ever heard of.
They're called "Project Harpoon". The intention is pretty obvious. The definition of harassment encompasses a variety of behaviours that typically involve the repeated intimidation, degradation and humiliation of an individual. Distributing private photos for the purpose of mockery is intimidation, as it pressures the individual to cease using public spaces. The degradation comes from being called a "whale" (duh) and being told that they don't fit a certain "standard" by complete strangers. The humiliation comes from being put in a spotlight for no good reason, just for others to poke fun at them. The repeated nature comes from the repeated redistributions, not just by Project Harpoon but by news organisations reporting on them.

If that doesn't qualify as harassment, I'd like to know what does.

Is a yearbook photo harassment? Is someone being caught on video in the background of a news broadcast harassment? The only thing that makes these different is the presence of an alternate, thinner version as well. Which seems possibly flattering, possibly creepy in a stalkery kind of way, but not really offensive. At least I don't see how it could be interpreted as offensive.
It's offensive because it is explicitly telling them that they are severely flawed, when they asked for no such judgement. It's offensive in the same way someone on the street telling you you're "a fat piece of shit" is offensive. Am I saying that fat people shouldn't be made aware that being obese is unhealthy? Of course not, I've had my own criticisms of fat-acceptance myself. But that's what doctors, friends and family are for. It's none of my business. It's none of Project Harpoon's business either. The fact that they desperately want to make it their business shows an extreme insecurity.
 

DementedSheep

New member
Jan 8, 2010
2,654
0
0
For everyone pulling "shouldn't have taken a picture" shit (it not like they are taking nudes, it's normal pictures) I hope someone finds a photo of you on your personal facebooks, post it on page dedicated to mocking people who are f-ing ugly and it becomes a meme.
 

Bat Vader

Elite Member
Mar 11, 2009
4,997
2
41
I feel this theory applies here.


This is why I don't post pictures of myself online.
 

JustAnotherAardvark

New member
Feb 19, 2015
126
0
0
Bat Vader said:
I feel this theory applies here.
I think there's a little more to it in than that, personally; it's not just the user's anonymity, it's the anonymity of the audience. I've said some horrid things about directors/actors/whathaveyou, for instance, because they're far enough removed that they aren't really 'people', if you follow. And because I thought the movie was really, really bad.

Bat Vader said:
This is why I don't post pictures of myself online.
They will get there anyway; my brief foray into FB showed me how many pictures there were out there of me that I neither took nor posted. :p
 

Olas

Hello!
Dec 24, 2011
3,226
0
0
DizzyChuggernaut said:
Olas said:
DizzyChuggernaut said:
2. It's not acceptable either way, but at least the original set of images used fictional characters.
Why isn't it "acceptable"?
I'm unsure of the legality but I think in both instances the use of underhanded tactics to promote an agenda is something that should be widely criticised. And funnily enough, the use of fattened video game characters to promote an agenda was criticised.
To me they both seem trivial. Though when people where criticizing the fattened video game characters, I think it was more along the lines of being stupid and pointless than outright offensive or harmful. If you want me to say that project harpoon was stupid and pointless then you win. But I don't think it was ever INTENDED to be anything more than a troll attempt.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
But here? I see a lot of people blaming the victim. At least Lara Croft and Tifa Lockhart are fictional and can't be victimised.
I really don't care about blame. To me blame is irrelevant. What matters is how we can stop bad things from happening to people. Look both ways before you cross the street, don't use the same password for every account, and don't post full body pics online if you can't handle people doing stuff with them. You can "blame" people all you want, but it isn't going to stop it from happening.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
Is it not? We're talking about a picture of someone in public... being made public... what's the issue? If the person didn't want to be seen, for whatever reason, they shouldn't have gone out in public. It seems like all you're doing is pointing an arrow at something everyone can already see.
So why do film crews ask for permission to film members of the public?
I assume because they're creating a commercial product that they'll be profiting off of.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
Why do peoples' faces get blurred out if they've refused permission?
Well it depends on the situation. If you're talking about interviews on TV it's probably the only way they'll agree to be interviewed. There are tons of reasons someone giving testimony might not want to be identified.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
I know asking for this level of common human decency from the edgy 12 year olds that currently occupy 4chan is pretty laughable, but why should everyone else throw away their standards just because they do?
I'm not sure what you mean by "throw away their standards". What did any of us do? Are you angry that we aren't super passionate about this the way you are? Just because I wouldn't do something myself, that doesn't mean I'm going to go on a crusade every time someone else does it. If anything it's counterproductive to react to it at all. The edgy 12 year olds at 4chan only spend their time doing this type of stuff to get a reaction, if everyone shrugged their shoulders and moved on the fire would run out of oxygen.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
The "intention" isn't something we can know, and nothing about the photo's seemed offensive to me. Simply taking something already put out in public and placing it on a pedestal isn't really making any sort of definitive statement, so if it's harassment at all, it seems like one of the weakest forms of harassment I've ever heard of.
They're called "Project Harpoon". The intention is pretty obvious.
Okay, the name is offensive. Funny, but offensive. Still, I saw worse stuff in second grade. Heck, I DID worse stuff in second grade. This isn't harassment, it's juvenile name calling. It might be bordering on bullying if it was a bit more direct and personal.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
The definition of harassment encompasses a variety of behaviours that typically involve the repeated intimidation, degradation and humiliation of an individual. Distributing private photos for the purpose of mockery is intimidation, as it pressures the individual to cease using public spaces. The degradation comes from being called a "whale" (duh) and being told that they don't fit a certain "standard" by complete strangers. The humiliation comes from being put in a spotlight for no good reason, just for others to poke fun at them. The repeated nature comes from the repeated redistributions, not just by Project Harpoon but by news organisations reporting on them.

If that doesn't qualify as harassment, I'd like to know what does.
You're being semantic. Like I said, if this is harassment, it's just about the mildest harassment I can recall.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
Is a yearbook photo harassment? Is someone being caught on video in the background of a news broadcast harassment? The only thing that makes these different is the presence of an alternate, thinner version as well. Which seems possibly flattering, possibly creepy in a stalkery kind of way, but not really offensive. At least I don't see how it could be interpreted as offensive.
It's offensive because it is explicitly telling them that they are severely flawed, when they asked for no such judgement. It's offensive in the same way someone on the street telling you you're "a fat piece of shit" is offensive. Am I saying that fat people shouldn't be made aware that being obese is unhealthy? Of course not, I've had my own criticisms of fat-acceptance myself. But that's what doctors, friends and family are for. It's none of my business. It's none of Project Harpoon's business either. The fact that they desperately want to make it their business shows an extreme insecurity.
It's rude to call someone a "piece of shit". Adding the word "fat" to the beginning only adds offense if you consider being fat a point of shame. Somehow I don't see a member of the FAT ACCEPTANCE movement feeling that way. As a fat person, who fully supports the fat acceptance movement, I don't see why this is so bad. In fact I don't even see why the whale analogy is so offensive. Whales are awesome, they're huge, intelligent, powerful, and often beautiful creatures. Some species of whale can even kill sharks. There are worse animals a fat person could be compared to is what I'm saying.

They should have gone with something like Project Pig Roast or something like that. I'll admit I'm not too creative.
 

Karadalis

New member
Apr 26, 2011
1,065
0
0
Heres the ethical conflict:

They took pictures they had no rights to and changed them, from private persons no less.

This is a huge nono. They can do that with people of public interest who have their pictures all over the news and media.. but not to someone who posts a selfie an facebook.

Also this is 4chan... since when do the words 4chan and ethics belong in the same sentence other to say "it doesnt have them" ?

As for the concept behind it... i can dig it. Even thought some of the photoshops borderlined or went over to the other unhealthy extreme i think the concept of showing an overly obese person what they could look like if they stopped their unhealthy livestyle could be inspirational.

However if people dont want to... you should leave them the fuck alone.
 

Bat Vader

Elite Member
Mar 11, 2009
4,997
2
41
JustAnotherAardvark said:
Bat Vader said:
I feel this theory applies here.
I think there's a little more to it in than that, personally; it's not just the user's anonymity, it's the anonymity of the audience. I've said some horrid things about directors/actors/whathaveyou, for instance, because they're far enough removed that they aren't really 'people', if you follow. And because I thought the movie was really, really bad.

Bat Vader said:
This is why I don't post pictures of myself online.
They will get there anyway; my brief foray into FB showed me how many pictures there were out there of me that I neither took nor posted. :p
If they took pictures of models and altered them that would be one thing but taking the pictures of random people and altering them is just a huge dick move to me. I don't see it as harassment but I do consider it a shitty thing to do. I criticize the director and actor's performances all the time. There's nothing wrong with that.
 

Petromir

New member
Apr 10, 2010
592
0
0
SecondPrize said:
CrystalShadow said:
The Lunatic said:
Stuff like this technically falls under the "Parody" clause of "Fair Use".

As such, when you upload your images to websites such as Facebook or whatever, you enter into a contract with these organizations which outlines what your images may or may not be used for. These rights have to abide by copy right laws, and one of those laws is the right to "Fair Use".

Now, it could be argued that it is not "Fair use" is not being followed if the photos are used maliciously, but, instead it seems they're being used to mock a movement or organization rather than individuals.

So, to surmise, photos you upload to Facebook aren't owned by you, regardless of how personal you feel about them, and people technically have a right to use them for stuff. Be careful what you upload. However, by all accounts, no site is required to host the content, so, it being removed isn't really censorship, though it is a little bit of a double standard.
Oh, no no, no, no!

People might act like that's true, but it's blatantly false.

To begin with, copyright is innate. So anything a person makes is copyrighted by default.
Secondly, the Terms of Service for Facebook (and pretty much any similar site) don't negate your ownership. That is complete and utter paranoid and or delusional nonsense.

What these sites do, is effectively to give them a non-exclusive perpetual right to use your work any way they see fit.

Note it gives facebook that right (in this example) not every random stranger and person that happens to see your stuff.

So, Facebook can legally use your stuff in any way they like. (advertising, promotion, whatever). But they don't own anything.
But other people cannot. That's copyright violation, even if it isn't practical to enforce.

You do. That's reality. By definition of how the laws work, I own this forum post I'm making as well.
You can almost guarantee that Defy media has it in their TOS that by agreeing to use these forums, I give them the right to do whatever they like with what I post here.
That doesn't mean they own it.
Just means I can't complain if they do whatever they like to it.
Your right to mess with it (quote bits of it, and so on) aren't because I no longer own it, but because it falls within the rights I've granted Defy Media by posting it here.

That's the legal reality.
Can I enforce that in any meaningful sense? No. Of course not. (nor do I see any point in doing so)
But it's still true.

Fair use is an entirely different matter, and shouldn't be confused with anything else.

Fair use says you may be allowed to use my copyrighted stuff even though I haven't given you permission of any kind to do so.(remember that me posting on facebook or here is me giving implicit permission for Facebook or the Escapist permission to use my stuff. Doesn't give them ownership of it, just permission to use it.)

What is considered fair use varies. (and it's not a universally accepted concept; Not all countries have such a provision, and given that the internet spans the entire planet, something that's 'fair use' in one place can still be violating copyright in another).

But regardless of if fair use applies, or if what you're doing is indirectly covered by some prior agreement a person makes with an organisation like facebook, what is definitely not the case, is that a person loses ownership of their work simply by putting it on a site such as facebook (or youtube. Or here. Or whatever).

Sure, you can't practically expect that to be respected on the internet, but it is really, really annoying that people are so used to it they don't even realise the original creator still owns the copyright regardless.

Granting someone rights to use something is not the same as granting them ownership.

People get used to weird stuff and think that's the way the rules work. But it isn't.

Maybe it should be, but then, why is it acceptable for a big company to sue you for putting their TV show on youtube, but if someone copies your picture off facebook without permission you should just 'get over it, you don't own it anymore! If you didn't want people copying it, don't put it online!'

Because, that is clearly stupid. Either copyright means something, or it doesn't, and we desperately need to decide which. Because when it's something that only has meaning if you're some big company with lots of lawyers, then it becomes a great way for said corporations to be incredibly abusive.

But that's a side issue to what's happening here.
Which is that some people apparently believe things which simply aren't true.

Does it happen online? Yes.
Does it happen a lot, in fact? Yes.

But that doesn't automatically make it OK.
Copyright gains much of its meaning where money is being made. If I take a broadcast and stream it somewhere where I get sub money or ad revenue, i'm in the wrong. If I take a photo and put it somewhere where I can't earn anything form it, I'm okay. Same with someone's image. I can take your photo all I want from a public place and use it for a portfolio or display it in a show. If I want to sell it to a stock agency or use it for an advertisement, however, I will need your consent.
Money has something to do with what you can do, but mostly in what the penalties will actually be, and how much effort is put into enforcement. Presenting a photo gained from anywhere in a show or portfolio without attribution is defiantly a breach of copyright, (though both would usually also be connected to being used to earn money), and given portfolios tend to be used to gain work by showing off previous edging towards false advertising or even fraud.

ThreeName said:
CrystalShadow said:
To begin with, copyright is innate. So anything a person makes is copyrighted by default.
Secondly, the Terms of Service for Facebook (and pretty much any similar site) don't negate your ownership. That is complete and utter paranoid and or delusional nonsense.
This is incorrect. A number of years ago my friends were involved in a "scandal" (to use the term loosely), and the national media used photos taken from their Facebook and put them on the front page. They were unable to legally act upon this despite A) Having taken the photos themselves and B) Being the subjects of the photos.

Photos publicly put on Facebook are public property.
Nope, you are confusing the right to use a photo for certain purposes (in this case news so a fair use/public interest) with ownership of said photo. There are plenty of limits on what you can do with someone else's photos taken off facebook, and they are defiantly not public property, though there are ways to use them without permission such as fair use or public interest. The only relevance facebook has is in the legalities is showing that those claiming fair use/public interest/etc had a legal way to obtain them.
 

Dizchu

...brutal
Sep 23, 2014
1,277
0
0
It disturbs me that one of the defenses for Project Harpoon is that they're "doing these women a favour" by photoshopping them. Anyone who uses this argument obviously doesn't know what a favour is.

Imagine you woke up one morning and someone had performed rhinoplasty on you. And you know what? It actually doesn't look bad. But you didn't want it, and you certainly didn't give anyone permission to operate on you while you were asleep. Was the rhinoplasty a "favour"?

What if you were distracted in a library for a few minutes, leaving your laptop turned on, unattended? If I used it, performed a malware scan and a defrag, cleaned up your folders a bit, would that have been a favour or an extremely fucking creepy thing to do?

You know, it would have been great if these guys offered to photoshop these women. But they didn't.
 

K12

New member
Dec 28, 2012
943
0
0
Seriously, would anybody actually defend this as an ok thing to do (apart from the reactionary "it's my right to act like a complete c*nt because free speech" thing that a baffling number of people think is worth saying)

The reason that fat-shaming is bad isn't just because it's mean and smug, it's because it doesn't work (in terms of forcing fat people to lose weight) it only succeeds in making fat people miserable. I get that this is probably trolling by the way.

The idea that putting a picture of yourself online means you deserve anything that gets done to that image is ridiculous. Why not extend that to going out in public? Or opening your curtains?
 

runic knight

New member
Mar 26, 2011
1,118
0
0
Ethically, was this an acceptable thing to do? Well, not sure what sort of ethical codes 4chan of all places actually adhere to, but pretty sure this is acceptable there. Does seem to be using activists though, so I guess covered for parody. Legally, covered by fair use. Morally, sort of a dick move. Purpose, likely harms more than helps.

Overall, a pointless thing, sort of a dick move, but not really unethical from a site like 4chan itself.
 

Lightknight

Mugwamp Supreme
Nov 26, 2008
4,860
0
0
DizzyChuggernaut said:
The project's Facebook and Instagram pages were taken down after numerous reports, and as usual they've cried censorship. While the original set of images, as well as similar fat-advocacy campaigns are tasteless and insulting, I believe "Project Harpoon" have fought fire with napalm here. I don't even believe that fat-shaming is the issue, but rather an invasion of people's privacy. As much as "Project Harpoon" claim to want to advocate "healthiness", they were clearly seeking to provoke.

When an anti-SJW page I followed posted about it, I expressed my thoughts about the invasion of privacy. The responses I got were... troubling. I was called an SJW and a shill of course, but what bothered me was how privacy wasn't an issue with anyone. In fact, I was told that "if you don't want your photos edited, don't post your photos on the internet". Actually, the responses to many news articles about the page expressed a complete lack of concern for privacy.
Except there is no invasion of privacy. Posting a fatted up picture of someone isn't invading their privacy. Photoshopping someone isn't an invasion of privacy. How are you defining privacy here? Do you believe that people have a right not to be known? Seems like these people already made public comments so that's not a concern. Was their personal property invaded somehow or did someone just edit publicly available photos? In which case those photos were already public and these are merely alternate versions of them. This is a really far reach on your part and others' parts unless something major was left out that would constitute a real "invasion of privacy".

It's no more an "invasion" than calling someone a meanie pants is. It was wrong to have them censored. People have a right to make political statements even if they're offensive and we're being a censorious society when we abuse the rules to silence opponents. I don't care which side abuses the system in this way, the individuals who do this are bullies. Likely people who think they're fighting for a good cause and some are, but bullies are bullies by their actions, not their intentions.

What's hilarious is that these people are also calling their actions offensive here. They are literally doing the opposite of what they originally set out to do. Had the individuals just laughed it off and called these people morons because it isn't offensive to be fat then they'd have accomplished their goals. Instead they exposed a double standard. They find it gross while demanding others to be OK with it. Sad, really. They're playing into the stereotype of individuals just out to champion social causes online that they don't really believe in themselves.

Olas said:
Kathinka said:
The Almighty Aardvark said:
Ah, is ee. Thanks.

I wouldn't describe this as impossible though. I've seen people lose a silly amount of weight, and the results were absolute changes in looks. I think you underestimate how much of a person is really chub and how little is bones.

I think it depends on the person. The picture you posted shows one example of how someone with a small bone structure can be obese, but that doesn't mean all obese people have a small bone structure.

I think if you can feel your ribs, but not see them, you're in the healthy body range regardless of objective size. Though don't quote me on that.
A 400 lb person can still feel their ribs. I think you've pulled this metric out of literally nowhere.
 

Areloch

It's that one guy
Dec 10, 2012
623
0
0
DizzyChuggernaut said:
Areloch said:
So could someone clarify for me: were the images put on private pages, and someone took them and used them? Or were they posted up on a public page, and taken and used?
While their focus was on photoshopping professional plus-sized models, they also stalked people's Tumblr and Facebook accounts for images to manipulate.

Out of curiosity, would it be okay to digitally manipulate and redistribute someone's artwork without their permission? People seem to be more than willing to throw the rights of photographers out the window but does it apply to drawn art too?

If so, what's the point of public domain photos? Why search for stock photos when you can use pretty much anything anyone has taken a picture of? Why not use images found on Google and claim them as your own? I don't get why personal photos suddenly become fair game?
What definition of 'stalking' are you using? I'm 100% certain that going through someone's online album for a picture to use does NOT constitute as stalking if they're not doing it SPECIFICALLY for that person.

Dick move, possibly, but not stalking.

But that does answer my original question - it sounds like all the pictures used were posted to the public internet, and none of them were stolen or procured from private accounts.

Which means that, while a dick move, there is nothing inherently wrong or illegal about using their images for photoshops and parody/criticism works. No different from using a celebrity or politician's picture for the same.

As for your question: manipulating the work for the sake of parody or criticism would fall under fair use. Given that, ostensibly, they did this whole thing to mock the original photoshops of videogame and anime characters, this would fall under fair use as well as a parody and criticism.

The point of public domain photos and stock photos, is if you plan to utilize those images in commercial works. I doubt anyone involved in this was trying to make any money, but were mocking the aforementioned videogame and anime character photoshops, for free, non-commercially. If they had tried to charge money for the photoshopped images, then that would make it likely to flounder on any fair use claims, as that gets hazier.

In short, the whole thing is definitely a dick move, but it's not stalking, it's not harassment, and it's not illegal. I'd probably even question it being unethical, if only just.

Honestly, I see this entire thing as the equivalent of someone standing next to some overweight people in public and them shouting "Man, what a bunch of fatties! They should lose some weight, right guys?". It'd undeniably be humiliating, and it'd be a gigantic dick move, but if they didn't constantly pursue them and keep doing it, there's nothing illegal here. It's just someone acting childish.
 

Elementary - Dear Watson

RIP Eleuthera, I will miss you
Nov 9, 2010
2,977
0
0
LeathermanKick25 said:
Well the argument "don't post your photos online if you want privacy" is kinda a solid arguement. Once you're out there online it's not that easy to keep it entirely private for all. There's concern for privacy, then there's the reality of privacy on the internet.

Also fuck fat advocacy, if a bunch of lazy fucks want to take pride in their overweight joy then be my guest. But don't start hating and then warping images of people who put the effort in to take care of their bodies because you're a lazy ****.
This is one of my favourite posts ever... Spoke exactly what I was thinking.

Hell... it's not hard to put facebook security settings on your photos, and only accept friend requests from people you trust. If you put yourself at risk by paying lipservice to security measures, and expecting others to work hard to protect you when you can't be assed, then it is fair game for others to use you to make their point.

It strikes me as the same as people who moan at police response times when they are burgled (due to budget stretches and higher priority tasking) when they were the dipshit who went out leaving their lights on and windows open... People who expect the police/government/anyone really to do stuff that it is well within their ability and remit to do themselves.

Also... yeah. You wanna be larger, fine... but what is humilliating about someone taking your photo that is already open to the public and editing it to make you look healthier? Hell... if someone did it to me I would print it and take it with me to the Gym as a reminder of what I am working towards every time I go. A new personal goal so I can continue knowing that I am helping my body remain healthy and lowering my chances of having problems. You know, and not expecting doctors to do it for me.

Recently I read an article about a girl in the UK who is addicted to sunbeds, and uses them every day, multiple times a day. She is putting herself at huge risk due to the UV damage she is probably experiencing. Her attitude: 'Skin cancer is curable; so if I get it I will just be cured [by the NHS... which we taxpayers pay for] then carry on with the beds.' Everyone would agree this is a disgusting attitude, and she should ammend her behaviour.

So... now we have overweight people who knowingly are increasing their chance of illness and problems, but can't be bothered to fix it. They are also costing my tax money on being helped at various points, or are setting themselves up to need it in the future, but they don'tcare. They seek to blame everyone but themselves for the condition they put themselves in, then cry off when they are criticised. +1 if they are also claiming benefits because they can't work due to their size. As a tax payer I am literally paying for them to remain in their condition as they don't do what everyone else does to help themselves, and I am expected to feel bad for thinking they should have a reality check and change? What?

So did they have the right to help themselves to pics of fat people already posted in a public place? Yes.
Was it a valid response to the equally obtuse, badly thought through, lack of self-respect fat acceptance campaign? Yes.
 

Jux

Hmm
Sep 2, 2012
867
4
23
CrystalShadow said:
The Lunatic said:
Stuff like this technically falls under the "Parody" clause of "Fair Use".

As such, when you upload your images to websites such as Facebook or whatever, you enter into a contract with these organizations which outlines what your images may or may not be used for. These rights have to abide by copy right laws, and one of those laws is the right to "Fair Use".

Now, it could be argued that it is not "Fair use" is not being followed if the photos are used maliciously, but, instead it seems they're being used to mock a movement or organization rather than individuals.

So, to surmise, photos you upload to Facebook aren't owned by you, regardless of how personal you feel about them, and people technically have a right to use them for stuff. Be careful what you upload. However, by all accounts, no site is required to host the content, so, it being removed isn't really censorship, though it is a little bit of a double standard.
Oh, no no, no, no!

People might act like that's true, but it's blatantly false.

To begin with, copyright is innate. So anything a person makes is copyrighted by default.
Secondly, the Terms of Service for Facebook (and pretty much any similar site) don't negate your ownership. That is complete and utter paranoid and or delusional nonsense.

What these sites do, is effectively to give them a non-exclusive perpetual right to use your work any way they see fit.

Note it gives facebook that right (in this example) not every random stranger and person that happens to see your stuff.

So, Facebook can legally use your stuff in any way they like. (advertising, promotion, whatever). But they don't own anything.
But other people cannot. That's copyright violation, even if it isn't practical to enforce.

You do. That's reality. By definition of how the laws work, I own this forum post I'm making as well.
You can almost guarantee that Defy media has it in their TOS that by agreeing to use these forums, I give them the right to do whatever they like with what I post here.
That doesn't mean they own it.
Just means I can't complain if they do whatever they like to it.
Your right to mess with it (quote bits of it, and so on) aren't because I no longer own it, but because it falls within the rights I've granted Defy Media by posting it here.

That's the legal reality.
Can I enforce that in any meaningful sense? No. Of course not. (nor do I see any point in doing so)
But it's still true.

Fair use is an entirely different matter, and shouldn't be confused with anything else.

Fair use says you may be allowed to use my copyrighted stuff even though I haven't given you permission of any kind to do so.(remember that me posting on facebook or here is me giving implicit permission for Facebook or the Escapist permission to use my stuff. Doesn't give them ownership of it, just permission to use it.)

What is considered fair use varies. (and it's not a universally accepted concept; Not all countries have such a provision, and given that the internet spans the entire planet, something that's 'fair use' in one place can still be violating copyright in another).

But regardless of if fair use applies, or if what you're doing is indirectly covered by some prior agreement a person makes with an organisation like facebook, what is definitely not the case, is that a person loses ownership of their work simply by putting it on a site such as facebook (or youtube. Or here. Or whatever).

Sure, you can't practically expect that to be respected on the internet, but it is really, really annoying that people are so used to it they don't even realise the original creator still owns the copyright regardless.

Granting someone rights to use something is not the same as granting them ownership.

People get used to weird stuff and think that's the way the rules work. But it isn't.

Maybe it should be, but then, why is it acceptable for a big company to sue you for putting their TV show on youtube, but if someone copies your picture off facebook without permission you should just 'get over it, you don't own it anymore! If you didn't want people copying it, don't put it online!'

Because, that is clearly stupid. Either copyright means something, or it doesn't, and we desperately need to decide which. Because when it's something that only has meaning if you're some big company with lots of lawyers, then it becomes a great way for said corporations to be incredibly abusive.

But that's a side issue to what's happening here.
Which is that some people apparently believe things which simply aren't true.

Does it happen online? Yes.
Does it happen a lot, in fact? Yes.

But that doesn't automatically make it OK.
In addition, they might be running afoul of publicity and privacy rights. http://www.publicdomainsherpa.com/rights-of-publicity-and-privacy.html

The gist of the privacy right is that you get to control information about you. At its heart is what Louis Brandeis (with coauthor Samuel Warren) summed up, way back in 1890 before he was a Supreme Court Justice, as "the right to be left alone." (I?m paraphrasing there.) The right to privacy is invaded by:

unreasonable intrusion upon the seclusion of another (for example, photographing someone through the window of their house, unbeknownst to them); or
appropriation of another?s name or likeness; or
unreasonable publicity given to another?s private life; or
publicity that unreasonably places another in a false light before the public.
Bold mine.
 

Jux

Hmm
Sep 2, 2012
867
4
23
Tsaba said:
to be put it in simpler terms, would you pose naked in your window? Not any window mind you, but, the second floor window on the side of your house. Is it private? Sure.... Can someone see you doing this and take pictures? Why yes they can.
That's also illegal btw in most places. Here's a general guideline for photography rules.

http://www.bypeople.com/photographers-rights-and-release-forms/