The Fallout Debate

[ZippyDSMlee]

First off, let's keep this thread civil. Anyone who flames will be promptly reported.

I haven't been on the forums much in the past few days, as in my free time I have been utterly addicted to Fallout 2.

Having just finished it, I began to think about the difference between the older Fallout games and their little brother from Bethesda, and came to a few conclusions.

Fallout 3 gets an awful lot of hate from fans of the older games. I can finally see why now.

It's not because it's a bad game. It's a great game. My favorite game.

It's just a very bad sequel.

Let me elaborate.

1. The first two games are closed in, claustrophobic (due in part to the isometric view) affairs, while Fallout 3 is a more accessible and easier game.

F1 and 2 keep the player constantly in fear of the next encounter above their level, constantly hitting save in case they suffer a sudden death.

F3's massive open world and enemy level scaling replace this with a more relaxed play-style, and far fewer deaths due to walking into the wrong area at too low a level.

To make a powerful character in the first two you must really work at it, picking one or two skills and grinding every quest and random encounter you can find. It is far more challenging and strategic than F3's VATS system and forgiving levelling.

2. Fallout 3's world is restricted by the rules of reality in a way that the early games are not.


The atmosphere and humour are far less surreal and random in F3. It is a much more serious game.

While the first two poke fun at pop culture, indulge in wacky humour like talking stone heads and whales falling from the sky, Fallout 3 dwells on the grim, dark side of human nature in a much bleaker way... radio transmissions from fathers trying to save their dying children, audio logs of peoples' last moments before the bombs fell, that kind of thing.

Therefore, in my opinion it does not wholly capture the vibe of the originals.

My conclusion is that it would have been better off named Fallout: Vault 101 or something other than Fallout 3, this way the old school fans would maybe not have had their expectations dashed so hard.

Which game is best is all down to opinion, personally I prefer f3 with it's more accessible combat and modern gaming values. I don't like to be frustrated by games, and I've had more fun in the Capital Wasteland than any other gaming experience in my life.

What do people think?

Am I right or wrong?

I would especially like to hear form fans of the old games who did enjoy 3 and hear what they have to say.

Your a bit late on the FO3 is a shooter bandwagon....ya ya ya its a nice simple shooter you can explore some and it have decent dailog,ect but tis a wonky shooter with cheap RPG elements....like Bioshok apparently. Sure these 2 games are ok at best... and ok at best is what modern gaming dose..I hate the simplified dumped down approach to game design these days.....

 

[Hallow'sEve]

Everyone keeps saying "it's just not a Fallout game", what exactly MAKES a "true" Fallout game? Asking since I've only played F3 (but I loved it)

here is the biggest rule of a fallout game, if you actually WANTED TO SEE the city not destroyed and feel sad because its all gone, its a bad fallout game. the entire message is "oh well it may be destroyed but fuck the past! we got hookers!". you should NEVER have a grim setting in a fallout game, its all wacky and over the top. there are other rules but i am too lazy to list them.

I thought the grimness was the point of Fallout, and the black humor was just it's way of comic relief. There has to be grimness in Fallout, even the "War, war never changes", THAT'S grim.
So should a Fallout game have/be grim but still have it's (black) humor to provide occasional relief?

 

[Echo136]

As I've said before, I cant understand why people say the first two games were so great. I played them recently and they seemed like crap to me. Fallout 3 was so much better.

 

[Spygon]

Its not a sequel but a new view of an old style game.I prefer f3 because of its dark and bleak moments as not many games make you feel that all that really matters is yourself your the small ball of energy trying to survive in a world that doesnt care anymore.I think this will be what survivors feel and have to deal with in a post apocalytic world.

 

[Henrik Persson]

Everyone keeps saying "it's just not a Fallout game", what exactly MAKES a "true" Fallout game? Asking since I've only played F3 (but I loved it)

here is the biggest rule of a fallout game, if you actually WANTED TO SEE the city not destroyed and feel sad because its all gone, its a bad fallout game. the entire message is "oh well it may be destroyed but fuck the past! we got hookers!". you should NEVER have a grim setting in a fallout game, its all wacky and over the top. there are other rules but i am too lazy to list them.

I thought the grimness was the point of Fallout, and the black humor was just it's way of comic relief. There has to be grimness in Fallout, even the "War, war never changes", THAT'S grim.
So should a Fallout game have/be grim but still have it's (black) humor to provide occasional relief?

But didn't you know that hookers is all you need to make the world less grim?

I agree with you fully, Fallout is supposed to be dark and gritty. Racism, violence, abuse and despair is rampant in the world. The most ridiculous humour in the game is in random encounters, which functions more or less as non-sequiters in a way. The humour found in the cities is generally of a much more grim nature.

 

[Olrod]

Fallout 3 is to Fallout 2 what Final Fantasy X-2 is to Final Fantasy X.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

I've never played the originals because they looked sort of like diablo, and I fucking hated diablo. Fallout 3 on the other hand, is one of my favorite games ever, so I'm pretty confident that I could say I think fallout 3 is way better anyways.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

snip

Your a bit late on the FO3 is a shooter bandwagon....ya ya ya its a nice simple shooter you can explore some and it have decent dailog,ect but tis a wonky shooter with cheap RPG elements....like Bioshok apparently. Sure these 2 games are ok at best... and ok at best is what modern gaming dose..I hate the simplified dumped down approach to game design these days.....

Yeah, funny thing is I never once said it was a shooter.

I suggest you read my OP again.

 

[T3h Merc]

Being that Oblivion is my all time faveorite game, Fallout 3 felt like more of what I love and that's great. I have yet to play the originals (certainly going to now) so Fallout 3 felt like a much darker and retro-futuristic Oblivion, my own unofficial Elder Scrolls 5. Of course as a standalone Fallout still fairs well based purely on gameplay, ity's story is nothing to scoff at. Visit the Bethsoft forums, have a chat with Pistolero about the morals of the Enclave, the world that Bethesda so beutifully rendered in Bethesda's engine, works.

 

[hardlymotivated]

(

I don't have time to go into more detail at the moment, but there were quite a few other things in the game that I thought didn't make much sense when I was playing, so I might jot them down later. (Presence of super mutants, FEV as a convenient plot device, return of the Enclave, a very black-and-white moral choice system, etc.)

FEV was in Fallout 2 as well. In fact, it was the central reason for the final mission in the game.

Yes, I'm well aware of its role in the first two games. What I don't like is the way it's conveniently on the East Coast and in the hands of Vault-Tec, of all people. In the first two, there were only two strains: the Mariposa strain, developed by West Tek, (Fallout 1) and the Curling strain developed on the Poseidon Oil Rig. (Fallout 2) The few samples that the Enclave managed to extract from the Mariposa base were all destroyed at the end of Fallout 2, and were still being tested. I think that the idea of FEV should have ended there.

Now, all of a sudden, we have a Vault 87 strain and another Enclave strain, both of which seem to have appeared out of nowhere. Oh, and the Modified FEV is completely perfect without having been tested on any "pure" test subjects; the point of the ending set pieces of Fallout 2, like you mentioned. And what's more, the Vault 87 strain isn't a precursor to the Enclave strain because Vault 87 is impenetrable with the exception of Little Lamplight, who've never encountered the Enclave before.

In short, the presence of the super mutants on the East Coast seems incredibly arbitrary, and their idiocy is handily explained by it being a "different strain of FEV". Even if you accept that they somehow acquired some pre-war FEV, this doesn't fit in with what the Master says in the first game: that the intelligence of the mutants produced was dependent on the amount of radiation they had been exposed to in the post-nuclear environment. Fawkes seems like a token character, and everybody's odd acceptance of him is explained by people's "trust" in you. Even when they've never seen you before.

Furthermore, what are the centaurs doing on the East Coast? They were very clearly stated to be a result of the experiments of the Master in attempts to create hybrids.

 

[NeutralMunchHotel]

Agreed...ish. I played Fallout 3 last Easter, then just a couple of days ago I played Fallout. And, like you, I found the tone to be quite off, but in the wrong way. I loved 3, but to me 1 just didn't feel right.

 

[blindthrall]

I agree with you on your main point, that 3 isn't really a sequel, although New Vegas hopefully will be. But I do think it's deeper than that. I think alot of the hate towards 3 is due to its bland story, although 2's story was a wee bit ridiculous. 1 is my favorite, because the narrative just kicked so much ass. Also, you should try Fallout Tactics.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

(

I don't have time to go into more detail at the moment, but there were quite a few other things in the game that I thought didn't make much sense when I was playing, so I might jot them down later. (Presence of super mutants, FEV as a convenient plot device, return of the Enclave, a very black-and-white moral choice system, etc.)

FEV was in Fallout 2 as well. In fact, it was the central reason for the final mission in the game.

Yes, I'm well aware of its role in the first two games. What I don't like is the way it's conveniently on the East Coast and in the hands of Vault-Tec, of all people. In the first two, there were only two strains: the Mariposa strain, developed by West Tek, (Fallout 1) and the Curling strain developed on the Poseidon Oil Rig. (Fallout 2) The few samples that the Enclave managed to extract from the Mariposa base were all destroyed at the end of Fallout 2, and were still being tested. I think that the idea of FEV should have ended there.

Now, all of a sudden, we have a Vault 87 strain and another Enclave strain, both of which seem to have appeared out of nowhere. Oh, and the Modified FEV is completely perfect without having been tested on any "pure" test subjects; the point of the ending set pieces of Fallout 2, like you mentioned. And what's more, the Vault 87 strain isn't a precursor to the Enclave strain because Vault 87 is impenetrable with the exception of Little Lamplight, who've never encountered the Enclave before.

In short, the presence of the super mutants on the East Coast seems incredibly arbitrary, and their idiocy is handily explained by it being a "different strain of FEV". Even if you accept that they somehow acquired some pre-war FEV, this doesn't fit in with what the Master says in the first game: that the intelligence of the mutants produced was dependent on the amount of radiation they had been exposed to in the post-nuclear environment. Fawkes seems like a token character, and everybody's odd acceptance of him is explained by people's "trust" in you. Even when they've never seen you before.

Furthermore, what are the centaurs doing on the East Coast? They were very clearly stated to be a result of the experiments of the Master in attempts to create hybrids.

Wow, you certainly know your Fallout lore.

Not much I can add to that. The centaurs in the first two were cooler than in 3.

It does seem strange that the virus never made it's way into Lamplight, but it's probably a good thing, imagine how annoying Princess would be as a fucking super mutant...

 

[hardlymotivated]

(

I don't have time to go into more detail at the moment, but there were quite a few other things in the game that I thought didn't make much sense when I was playing, so I might jot them down later. (Presence of super mutants, FEV as a convenient plot device, return of the Enclave, a very black-and-white moral choice system, etc.)

FEV was in Fallout 2 as well. In fact, it was the central reason for the final mission in the game.

Yes, I'm well aware of its role in the first two games. What I don't like is the way it's conveniently on the East Coast and in the hands of Vault-Tec, of all people. In the first two, there were only two strains: the Mariposa strain, developed by West Tek, (Fallout 1) and the Curling strain developed on the Poseidon Oil Rig. (Fallout 2) The few samples that the Enclave managed to extract from the Mariposa base were all destroyed at the end of Fallout 2, and were still being tested. I think that the idea of FEV should have ended there.

Now, all of a sudden, we have a Vault 87 strain and another Enclave strain, both of which seem to have appeared out of nowhere. Oh, and the Modified FEV is completely perfect without having been tested on any "pure" test subjects; the point of the ending set pieces of Fallout 2, like you mentioned. And what's more, the Vault 87 strain isn't a precursor to the Enclave strain because Vault 87 is impenetrable with the exception of Little Lamplight, who've never encountered the Enclave before.

In short, the presence of the super mutants on the East Coast seems incredibly arbitrary, and their idiocy is handily explained by it being a "different strain of FEV". Even if you accept that they somehow acquired some pre-war FEV, this doesn't fit in with what the Master says in the first game: that the intelligence of the mutants produced was dependent on the amount of radiation they had been exposed to in the post-nuclear environment. Fawkes seems like a token character, and everybody's odd acceptance of him is explained by people's "trust" in you. Even when they've never seen you before.

Furthermore, what are the centaurs doing on the East Coast? They were very clearly stated to be a result of the experiments of the Master in attempts to create hybrids.

Wow, you certainly know your Fallout lore.

Not much I can add to that. The centaurs in the first two were cooler than in 3.

It does seem strange that the virus never made it's way into Lamplight, but it's probably a good thing, imagine how annoying Princess would be as a fucking super mutant...

Hahaha, jeez. That'd be painful.

But yeah, don't get me wrong - I do enjoy playing the game, and despite its canonical flaws I'd say it's rightfully earned its place amongst my list of games I'd happily replay.

Oh, and see how long you can imagine Megaton's Moira as a super mutant without crying.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

Hahaha, jeez. That'd be painful.

But yeah, don't get me wrong - I do enjoy playing the game, and despite its canonical flaws I'd say it's rightfully earned its place amongst my list of games I'd happily replay.

Oh, and see how long you can imagine Megaton's Moira as a super mutant without crying.

Ha she's bad enough as a

Spoiler

ghoul

Although... I'm one of the few people who didn't really mind her, the only time she got annoying was when she kept nagging me to get on with the quests!

 

[xXGeckoXx]

I think Fallout 3 is an excellent game and I consider it a sequel but not a sequel at the same time.

I find it to be more of a tale in the Fallout universe rather than an actual sequel to Fallout 1 and 2.

Kinda like how New Vegas isn't a direct sequel to Fallout 3 but just another tale in the Fallout Universe.

Exactly. And it does carry on some old characters and a hell of a lot of the history.

 

[packedcracker]

My problem with Fallout3 was the atmosphere. The first two games felt so intimidating, everyone had this aura of "Look at me in the wrong way and me and twenty of my buds are gonna be on your ass"

In fallout 3 however, you felt like more of a superhero, and you could easily take down an entire city. And everyone seems to have this polite undertone to them.