The Fallout Debate

[T3h Merc]

Being that Oblivion is my all time faveorite game, Fallout 3 felt like more of what I love and that's great. I have yet to play the originals (certainly going to now) so Fallout 3 felt like a much darker and retro-futuristic Oblivion, my own unofficial Elder Scrolls 5. Of course as a standalone Fallout still fairs well based purely on gameplay, ity's story is nothing to scoff at. Visit the Bethsoft forums, have a chat with Pistolero about the morals of the Enclave, the world that Bethesda so beutifully rendered in Bethesda's engine, works.

 

[hardlymotivated]

(

I don't have time to go into more detail at the moment, but there were quite a few other things in the game that I thought didn't make much sense when I was playing, so I might jot them down later. (Presence of super mutants, FEV as a convenient plot device, return of the Enclave, a very black-and-white moral choice system, etc.)

FEV was in Fallout 2 as well. In fact, it was the central reason for the final mission in the game.

Yes, I'm well aware of its role in the first two games. What I don't like is the way it's conveniently on the East Coast and in the hands of Vault-Tec, of all people. In the first two, there were only two strains: the Mariposa strain, developed by West Tek, (Fallout 1) and the Curling strain developed on the Poseidon Oil Rig. (Fallout 2) The few samples that the Enclave managed to extract from the Mariposa base were all destroyed at the end of Fallout 2, and were still being tested. I think that the idea of FEV should have ended there.

Now, all of a sudden, we have a Vault 87 strain and another Enclave strain, both of which seem to have appeared out of nowhere. Oh, and the Modified FEV is completely perfect without having been tested on any "pure" test subjects; the point of the ending set pieces of Fallout 2, like you mentioned. And what's more, the Vault 87 strain isn't a precursor to the Enclave strain because Vault 87 is impenetrable with the exception of Little Lamplight, who've never encountered the Enclave before.

In short, the presence of the super mutants on the East Coast seems incredibly arbitrary, and their idiocy is handily explained by it being a "different strain of FEV". Even if you accept that they somehow acquired some pre-war FEV, this doesn't fit in with what the Master says in the first game: that the intelligence of the mutants produced was dependent on the amount of radiation they had been exposed to in the post-nuclear environment. Fawkes seems like a token character, and everybody's odd acceptance of him is explained by people's "trust" in you. Even when they've never seen you before.

Furthermore, what are the centaurs doing on the East Coast? They were very clearly stated to be a result of the experiments of the Master in attempts to create hybrids.

 

[NeutralMunchHotel]

Agreed...ish. I played Fallout 3 last Easter, then just a couple of days ago I played Fallout. And, like you, I found the tone to be quite off, but in the wrong way. I loved 3, but to me 1 just didn't feel right.

 

[blindthrall]

I agree with you on your main point, that 3 isn't really a sequel, although New Vegas hopefully will be. But I do think it's deeper than that. I think alot of the hate towards 3 is due to its bland story, although 2's story was a wee bit ridiculous. 1 is my favorite, because the narrative just kicked so much ass. Also, you should try Fallout Tactics.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

(

I don't have time to go into more detail at the moment, but there were quite a few other things in the game that I thought didn't make much sense when I was playing, so I might jot them down later. (Presence of super mutants, FEV as a convenient plot device, return of the Enclave, a very black-and-white moral choice system, etc.)

FEV was in Fallout 2 as well. In fact, it was the central reason for the final mission in the game.

Yes, I'm well aware of its role in the first two games. What I don't like is the way it's conveniently on the East Coast and in the hands of Vault-Tec, of all people. In the first two, there were only two strains: the Mariposa strain, developed by West Tek, (Fallout 1) and the Curling strain developed on the Poseidon Oil Rig. (Fallout 2) The few samples that the Enclave managed to extract from the Mariposa base were all destroyed at the end of Fallout 2, and were still being tested. I think that the idea of FEV should have ended there.

Now, all of a sudden, we have a Vault 87 strain and another Enclave strain, both of which seem to have appeared out of nowhere. Oh, and the Modified FEV is completely perfect without having been tested on any "pure" test subjects; the point of the ending set pieces of Fallout 2, like you mentioned. And what's more, the Vault 87 strain isn't a precursor to the Enclave strain because Vault 87 is impenetrable with the exception of Little Lamplight, who've never encountered the Enclave before.

In short, the presence of the super mutants on the East Coast seems incredibly arbitrary, and their idiocy is handily explained by it being a "different strain of FEV". Even if you accept that they somehow acquired some pre-war FEV, this doesn't fit in with what the Master says in the first game: that the intelligence of the mutants produced was dependent on the amount of radiation they had been exposed to in the post-nuclear environment. Fawkes seems like a token character, and everybody's odd acceptance of him is explained by people's "trust" in you. Even when they've never seen you before.

Furthermore, what are the centaurs doing on the East Coast? They were very clearly stated to be a result of the experiments of the Master in attempts to create hybrids.

Wow, you certainly know your Fallout lore.

Not much I can add to that. The centaurs in the first two were cooler than in 3.

It does seem strange that the virus never made it's way into Lamplight, but it's probably a good thing, imagine how annoying Princess would be as a fucking super mutant...

 

[hardlymotivated]

(

I don't have time to go into more detail at the moment, but there were quite a few other things in the game that I thought didn't make much sense when I was playing, so I might jot them down later. (Presence of super mutants, FEV as a convenient plot device, return of the Enclave, a very black-and-white moral choice system, etc.)

FEV was in Fallout 2 as well. In fact, it was the central reason for the final mission in the game.

Yes, I'm well aware of its role in the first two games. What I don't like is the way it's conveniently on the East Coast and in the hands of Vault-Tec, of all people. In the first two, there were only two strains: the Mariposa strain, developed by West Tek, (Fallout 1) and the Curling strain developed on the Poseidon Oil Rig. (Fallout 2) The few samples that the Enclave managed to extract from the Mariposa base were all destroyed at the end of Fallout 2, and were still being tested. I think that the idea of FEV should have ended there.

Now, all of a sudden, we have a Vault 87 strain and another Enclave strain, both of which seem to have appeared out of nowhere. Oh, and the Modified FEV is completely perfect without having been tested on any "pure" test subjects; the point of the ending set pieces of Fallout 2, like you mentioned. And what's more, the Vault 87 strain isn't a precursor to the Enclave strain because Vault 87 is impenetrable with the exception of Little Lamplight, who've never encountered the Enclave before.

In short, the presence of the super mutants on the East Coast seems incredibly arbitrary, and their idiocy is handily explained by it being a "different strain of FEV". Even if you accept that they somehow acquired some pre-war FEV, this doesn't fit in with what the Master says in the first game: that the intelligence of the mutants produced was dependent on the amount of radiation they had been exposed to in the post-nuclear environment. Fawkes seems like a token character, and everybody's odd acceptance of him is explained by people's "trust" in you. Even when they've never seen you before.

Furthermore, what are the centaurs doing on the East Coast? They were very clearly stated to be a result of the experiments of the Master in attempts to create hybrids.

Wow, you certainly know your Fallout lore.

Not much I can add to that. The centaurs in the first two were cooler than in 3.

It does seem strange that the virus never made it's way into Lamplight, but it's probably a good thing, imagine how annoying Princess would be as a fucking super mutant...

Hahaha, jeez. That'd be painful.

But yeah, don't get me wrong - I do enjoy playing the game, and despite its canonical flaws I'd say it's rightfully earned its place amongst my list of games I'd happily replay.

Oh, and see how long you can imagine Megaton's Moira as a super mutant without crying.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

Hahaha, jeez. That'd be painful.

But yeah, don't get me wrong - I do enjoy playing the game, and despite its canonical flaws I'd say it's rightfully earned its place amongst my list of games I'd happily replay.

Oh, and see how long you can imagine Megaton's Moira as a super mutant without crying.

Ha she's bad enough as a

Spoiler

ghoul

Although... I'm one of the few people who didn't really mind her, the only time she got annoying was when she kept nagging me to get on with the quests!

 

[xXGeckoXx]

I think Fallout 3 is an excellent game and I consider it a sequel but not a sequel at the same time.

I find it to be more of a tale in the Fallout universe rather than an actual sequel to Fallout 1 and 2.

Kinda like how New Vegas isn't a direct sequel to Fallout 3 but just another tale in the Fallout Universe.

Exactly. And it does carry on some old characters and a hell of a lot of the history.

 

[packedcracker]

My problem with Fallout3 was the atmosphere. The first two games felt so intimidating, everyone had this aura of "Look at me in the wrong way and me and twenty of my buds are gonna be on your ass"

In fallout 3 however, you felt like more of a superhero, and you could easily take down an entire city. And everyone seems to have this polite undertone to them.

 

[jtr477]

It's not a debate. Fallout 3 is a reskinned Oblivion. With guns and VATS. As a game, it's good for its time, but as a fallout successor, it's a stinking pile of radiated mutant crap.

Also, i believe that this was great for Bethesda as a game developer. I think it really helped broaden their horizons and show that they can adapt and tweak a game system, and put it to a extremely good other use.

I feel that Fallout 3 was proof enough that the team working on TES can only do one type of game and aren't creative enough to widen their view. Compared to Oblivion, the dialogue system's the same, the viewpoint's the same, the general gameplay is the same (open world filled with dungeons that have no point whatsoever) and the facial animations are as horrid. The perk system is a dumbed-down version of the original (case in point: 5% damage) and VATS is an unrealistic pile of dismemberment showcase that doesn't even compare to the real-time gameplay.

I don't hate Fallout 3. I hate Bethesda.

First of all, allthough i give you your right in the TERRIBLE facial animations, i have to say you're wrong about the dialogue system, fallout 3's was line based, and oblivion's was completely topic based, except for some parts.


Other then that, the soundtrack, the atmosphere and those little gems you find scattered across the game are often ballstighteningly great.

Also, you get mad at bethesda for making this type of game? But everyone has specialies innit? The dungeons aren't supposed to have a point, they are supposed to be explored, to play.

 

[GonzoGamer]

I liked Fallout 3 best (my favorite game of this gen) but I too think they should've called it something like Fallout Capital Wateland or Fallout: Teenage Wasteland (since you play a teenager) and New Vegas could've been Fallout 3 as it sounds like more the spiritual sucessor.

 

[Unit Alpha]

I don't have the rose-tinted nostalgic glasses on so personally I like FO3, probably because I can't stand isometric.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Fallout 2 is my least favourite of the numbered Fallout games.


Heee heeee, I REVEL IN MY HERESY!

 

[StarCecil]

I liked Fallout 3 better than the originals. I think the biggest difference is that Fallout 3 is more accessible and therefore "inferior". I couldn't stand the isometric view, the sudden change to turn based combat when it felt like it was a real-time game. I liked the imagery in Fallout 3, and I liked the grimmer setting. To me, it's like complaining about KotOR 2 being dark compared to the rest of Star Wars. Sure, it's darker and has its minor annoyances, but it's still great to play.

 

[Zomgfacekik]

The first two had a better atmosphere,story and feeling while the 3rd had fun gameplay. dont get me wrong, the third had all of those but they werent as prominent as the first two.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

I think the biggest difference is that Fallout 3 is more accessible and therefore "inferior".

Damned right. It all went to crap when they openned Fallout to the console scrubs.

[/PC elitist]

I do remember Feargus Urqhart saying in an IRC Q&A session that if someone really wants to have a say on what does or doesn't make a Fallout game, they should pony up the cash to buy the IP.

 

[Icehearted]

As a HUGE fan of the first two (and a NMA member ) I felt FO3 wasn't really a fallout game. Honestly, when all is said and done, it's a shooter with an oddball targeting mechanic. Sure, one could argue that it is indeed a fallout game, set in the universe and whatnot, but the first two were tied together fairly plainly, whereas the more recent game took canon, tossed it in a bin, set it on fire, attempted to pee on it to put it out and failed, only to call in all it's friends and giggle while it screamed "love me" as it melted into something so disfigured one would wonder why they bothered even utilizing the license in the first place. It very well could have been a re-skinned game with a different title, and it probably would have done just as well with less controversy. Calling it Fallout Adventure or Fallout: FPS, or Fallout: point and click and hope like hell your bullets hit something you're aiming at, and again it would have probably drawn a lot less flack.

I had a pretty solid tactic I loved using in the first two; equip rifle, free hands. Enemies would get kneecapped on their way to me, or I might have just shot one in the balls if I trusted my aim/luck, get close enough and a punch in the eyes would blind or knock out anyone that wasn't trying to limp away, and for those that were limping off in terror I'd savor a long range bullet to their back. It made combat a freakin' joy for me, and none of that exists in FO3. FO3 you shoot, may or may not hit depending on yada yada yada. Tactics were out the window.

Incidentally, I really liked FO3. I just don't really think of it as FO3, if I do my head caves in at the oddity of it all.

TL;DR
I loved the first two for what they were, and the third for what it was, but the differences are too great for the third to really be a third in my simple mind.

 

[kazriko]

Level 20 level cap

Raised to 30 in the 3rd DLC.

Fallout 3 is a great game, and captures SOME of the fun of the original ones, but yeah, it's more like another game in the same world than a complete sequel. I like all 3 of them though. I even enjoyed Fallout Tactics once I took it out of realtime mode and played it all turn based.

What I don't like about fallout 3 was the number of bugs in the game. They really should tighten up their code...

 

[spacer]

I'd never played a Fallout game before I got Fallout 3. I played through the whole (ie: main story quest and a couple of side quests) thing, came to the end and thought wow, that was great, people on the internet obviously are full of crap. Then I went and got Fallout 2 and whilst I still haven't finished it yet, so far it's not strictly speaking a better game, but it's a much better written game. The part in New Reno where you have to decide which drug dealer to have killed based on no evidence? That was brilliant (The whole of New Reno is pretty great). Getting sexed up by that mutant in Broken Hills? Hilarious, and disgusting. When I realised I'd spoken out of turn with the leader of Vault City and could never get back in? That was great, it felt completely natural and she successfully came across as an evil *****. Fallout 2 is definately more of an RPG in that respect, Fallout 3 would just let you restart the conversation again if you messed up, it seems a bit like an exercise in picking the right dialogue options to proceed rather than actual role playing. The atmosphere/mood of Fallout 2 seems to just be so much more involving than Fallout 3, it made me really think about what I was doing. I can't really think of any moments in Fallout 3 where I was really taken aback by the storytelling or characters. The only ones that came close were Colin Moriarty and Liberty prime, who whilst pretty funny, manages to encapsulate how Fallout 3 feels about its setting (it's a bit of a joke.) I know Fallout 2 has its fair share of jokes, but so far they're jokes set in the world, rather than about it. Like I said I haven't finished it, it could completely change for all I know.
All that said, having been raised on Quake and Half Life, the combat in Fallout 2 is weak compared to Fallout 3. The way you had to build your characters in order not to be ruined by the starting temple was pretty lame too. That's why I wouldn't really call Fallout 2 a better game. The story is superior to Fallout 3's, but I really like Fallout 3's gameplay.

This could all be complete bullshit though, the first RPG I ever played was Mass Effect, so take that for what you will .

 

[MiracleOfSound]

IThe part in New Reno where you have to decide which drug dealer to have killed based on no evidence? That was brilliant

It was the Salvatores!

They poisoned him with bad Jet and tried to frame the Mordinos to start a gang war betweent them and the Wrights.

You need to search the dead guy's room and pass a few speech checks to find out.

That was one thing that was very different in F1 and 2, you mess up once and options are gone forever. It added to the tension I thought.