The Fallout Debate

[Misterian]

Now, I thought Fallout 3 was the best game I ever got for the Xbox 360, the expansions made it better. Fallout 3 gave an immersive and fantastic experiance of being in a post-apocoplytic world.

I haven't played the first 2, but the game got me interested in getting those 2 first chance given, my computer's not current-gen material, but the fact I can install Oregan Trail with it makes me a little bit confident I can play those games on my computer.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

Now there's a question for people. How the hell did FEV get to a vault in DC?

As far as I can remember, the enclave developed it themselves on the oil rig, right?

Ok heres what I know. Warning Spoilers ahead!

Spoiler

It starts before the war. The military develops FEV as a means to protect soldiers against chemical waepons, but it turns out to be a lot more than that.
It gets researched until the war starts. During the war the base gets lost and because of radiation, the FEV mutates, which is why super mutants are sterile, and it leaks outside the base because of the damage the bas suffered from the nuclear bombs. This is the reason Ghouls, Centaurs, Wanamingos and Floaters roam the wasteland.
Harold and his Friend Grey discover the base during an expedition. They get attacked or something and Harold gets away but Grey falls into a vat containing FEV and turns into the Master and Harold obviously turns into a Ghoul.
Now the vault dweller blows up the base with a nuke that is inside at the end of Fallout 1.
You can visit the base in Fallout 2, if you blow your way through the debris, but apart from a few super mutants and dead Ecnlave soldiers, there is nothingto find.

While it is technically possible to get some FEV to DC I guess, there are still some problems.

1st: The Enclave is finished. As I said before, their main base got blown up, along with most of their research and resources and only the about a dozen people from Navarro remain.

2nd: Fallout 3 canon says, that the government gave the FEV to Vault Tec and study it in a vault in DC. But in the previous games it is established, that the only place where the FEV was, was in mariposa. It was a top secret project even the majority of the government and military knew nothing about. The vaults were used by the government for some social studies and they cooperated with Vault Tec, but they didn't give them any insight in their military research.

I have to do some research again, because I don't think I got everything 100% correct.
go here for additional info: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_Wiki

It's getting late and I have to get up early tomorrow so I can't answer any further questions until tomorrow.

Very thorough!

It's a bit of a mindfuck alright.

And that base in Fallout 2 had the toughest damn fight in the whole game against that mutie with all the pets!

 

[MiracleOfSound]

You people are making me want to try and pop the discount Fallout Collection I got back into my CD drive X_X ....But from what I can tell, for the comments at least..I should try out Fallout 2 first?

I feel like I didn't give it enough time...

I certainly found Fallout 2 more fun than 1.

The dialogue was funnier, it was much bigger and longer, and due to the vast amount of quests available it was a tad more forgiving and non-linear than the rather rigid structure of Fallout 1.

 

[Stabby Joe]

I love Fallout 3 BUT I will acknowledge that it's a very different experience to 1 and 2 since the originals emphasize the bleakness and scavenger aspect more (hard games to) but I really felt the in 3 this was a world my character was living in.

BTW are some of the huge Fallot 3 haters from No Mutants Allowed?

 

[MrGFunk]

F3's massive open world and enemy level scaling replace this with a more relaxed play-style, and far fewer deaths due to walking into the wrong area at too low a level.

I hope Bethesda improve the pacing and challenge for New Vegas. I found the early stages of F3 tense and needed caution at any skill level but soon all battles could be won with little concern.

 

[SomeBritishDude]

Agreed 100%.

I enjoyed Fallout 3 immensely. But it's pretty clear to me after playing Fallout 1 & 2 that FO3 could very well have been called "Generic Post Apocalyptic Wasteland: The Game" and been just as good without taking an unapologetic dump all over the originals game style, story and atmosphere.

I mean what did Fallout 3 ultimately take away from the original property? Every story element they took was either forced, unnecessary or morphed to such a point that it didn't have anything to do with the source aside from name. Hell, it probably would have been better without the lore restrictions hanging over Bethesda's head, one's they didn't pay much mind to anyway.

They could have simply said "made as a tribute to Fallout" or something along those lines and not had to piss off a lot of old schoolers while still keeping a little of the 1950s vibe (the only thing that I would have missed if the game had not been Fallout)

I personally preferred Fallout 3 (I just like the game mechanics better) but I still feel Bethesda bought a property that was only nudging at the game they had in mind.

 

[Therumancer]

My thoughts have long been that Fallout 3 is a great game, but not a *FALLOUT* game. Bethesda would have done better to create their own post-apocolyptic franchise than try and work with that one.

Without getting into gameplay (yet) one of the big problems is what you point out in regards to the humor. Fallout is defined by a very specific style of over the top humor, as well as a lot of sex and violence. This is a game where you could marry someone (of any gender combo) and then shop your spouse around to sell into slavery. You could also wind up becoming a porn star, and other things. A lot of the jokes in random encounters involved bits from Monty Python, and Dougglas Addams books (the bit with the whale and the nearby flower pot are from Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy). While internally consistant, the game revolved around a specific mix of grittiness, black humor, and outright satire. Bethesda simply pulls too many punches to do things "right" nowadays. This is a company that was begging the FCC for mercy over fan-made nudity mods for Oblivion.

When it comes to the gameplay, I guess it all depends on what you like. If your not an RPG fan I can see where Fallout 3 seems a lot better. It is after all a lot shallower and lets you twitch through a lot of problems. The compromise to RPG elements (VATS) seems rather tacked on to be honest though overall I guess the combination works.

In general it's like another discussion I was having comparing Mass Effect 1 and 2. A lot of people do not GET the whole RPG thing. That's fine, there are differant kinds of games for differant kinds of people. However I believe that people should leave RPGs and RPG series alone and keep them what they are since there is a healthy enough audience for them. If people want to play action games there are plenty of games that will let you twitch your way through things, with nary a stat in sight.

Long term character development, a degree of randomness, and having to carefully plan to face encounters especially early on are some of the trademarks of an RPG that keep RPG players going. It's not surprising that to an action game player the first two Fallout games seem like "epic fail" because they represented the antithesis of that kind of play. Truthfully though it would be nice if people would quit trying to hybridize and go back to making RPGs as RPGs and cater them to RPG gamers.

 

[TheLefty]

I played and loved Fallout 3 and so I went out to buy the first the (1, 2 and tactics all on one disc) and even though I knew thew were isometric I was still heavily disappointed. There was nothing to guide you to where you're supposed to go first so you wander around until something found you and swiftly kicked your ass. I just wasn't a fan.

 

[Kuchinawa212]

You sir, hit the nail on the head

*HIFIVE*
I love fallout 3, but you said it perfectly, it's a bad sequel. Not a bad game.

 

[Blatherscythe]

I've played Fallout 1, 2 and 3 so I know what I'm talking about. As for Fallout 1 and 2 being claustophobic all I can say is, what? The game was massive! If your talking about the battles and shootouts that took place inside those not claustrophobic you got a top down view of the action and if you were smart you hid behind tables, walls and boxes. Calling Fallout 1 and 2 claustrophobic is just stupid, Fallout 3 had parts of levels that could be considered claustophobic but only a few parts to favor melee fighter enemies.

Perhaps claustrophobic was a bad choice of words... maybe 'oppressive' would be a better word. What I meant was that in the early games there's the constant fear of the next sudden death or total screw up, making the player eternally uneasy.

Yes, the game was huge but it was all segregated into small, closed in areas, as opposed to the massive expanse that new tech allowed Bethesda to build..

No need to use words like 'stupid' though mate. I don't think that's the issue here.

And yeah, I preferred the easy nature of F3 too because to me it was more fun.

Now I didn't say stupid as in you were stupid, meant more of a stupid choice of words. Also the world has ended, you a lone gun, enemies have tons of guns and there are mutants. The world is hell and Fallout 1, 2 and 3 on the harder difficulties showed this.

 

[Stormz]

I actually just got the trilogy for Fallout (1, 2 and tactics)

I can honestly say I prefer the older ones. Fallout 3 ditched the strategy part of the series and turned it into a shooter. I don't find Fallout 3 to be that hard and dislike the way they catered to casual gamers. I'm not saying casual is bad but it still disappoints me because of how the first 2 games were deeper and more challenging.

I still do like Fallout 3. Just not nearly as much as the old ones.

 

[Orcus The Ultimate]

The one i enjoyed the most was surely Fallout 2, it just had all the goofy stuff like in the 1st one, after the main quest there were so many things you could do, it was really more open than FO3, and also it immediatly put you into the Wasteland universe with Mark Morgan's amazing ambient music (personally i love the Vault City hightech style theme).

and also it's the most moded game of the 3. (thinking of MIB88 megamod)

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

First off, let's keep this thread civil. Anyone who flames will be promptly reported.

I haven't been on the forums much in the past few days, as in my free time I have been utterly addicted to Fallout 2.

Having just finished it, I began to think about the difference between the older Fallout games and their little brother from Bethesda, and came to a few conclusions.

Fallout 3 gets an awful lot of hate from fans of the older games. I can finally see why now.

It's not because it's a bad game. It's a great game. My favorite game.

It's just a very bad sequel.

Let me elaborate.

1. The first two games are closed in, claustrophobic (due in part to the isometric view) affairs, while Fallout 3 is a more accessible and easier game.

F1 and 2 keep the player constantly in fear of the next encounter above their level, constantly hitting save in case they suffer a sudden death.

F3's massive open world and enemy level scaling replace this with a more relaxed play-style, and far fewer deaths due to walking into the wrong area at too low a level.

To make a powerful character in the first two you must really work at it, picking one or two skills and grinding every quest and random encounter you can find. It is far more challenging and strategic than F3's VATS system and forgiving levelling.

2. Fallout 3's world is restricted by the rules of reality in a way that the early games are not.


The atmosphere and humour are far less surreal and random in F3. It is a much more serious game.

While the first two poke fun at pop culture, indulge in wacky humour like talking stone heads and whales falling from the sky, Fallout 3 dwells on the grim, dark side of human nature in a much bleaker way... radio transmissions from fathers trying to save their dying children, audio logs of peoples' last moments before the bombs fell, that kind of thing.

Therefore, in my opinion it does not wholly capture the vibe of the originals.

My conclusion is that it would have been better off named Fallout: Vault 101 or something other than Fallout 3, this way the old school fans would maybe not have had their expectations dashed so hard.

Which game is best is all down to opinion, personally I prefer f3 with it's more accessible combat and modern gaming values. I don't like to be frustrated by games, and I've had more fun in the Capital Wasteland than any other gaming experience in my life.

What do people think?

Am I right or wrong?

I would especially like to hear form fans of the old games who did enjoy 3 and hear what they have to say.

Your a bit late on the FO3 is a shooter bandwagon....ya ya ya its a nice simple shooter you can explore some and it have decent dailog,ect but tis a wonky shooter with cheap RPG elements....like Bioshok apparently. Sure these 2 games are ok at best... and ok at best is what modern gaming dose..I hate the simplified dumped down approach to game design these days.....

 

[Hallow'sEve]

Everyone keeps saying "it's just not a Fallout game", what exactly MAKES a "true" Fallout game? Asking since I've only played F3 (but I loved it)

here is the biggest rule of a fallout game, if you actually WANTED TO SEE the city not destroyed and feel sad because its all gone, its a bad fallout game. the entire message is "oh well it may be destroyed but fuck the past! we got hookers!". you should NEVER have a grim setting in a fallout game, its all wacky and over the top. there are other rules but i am too lazy to list them.

I thought the grimness was the point of Fallout, and the black humor was just it's way of comic relief. There has to be grimness in Fallout, even the "War, war never changes", THAT'S grim.
So should a Fallout game have/be grim but still have it's (black) humor to provide occasional relief?

 

[Echo136]

As I've said before, I cant understand why people say the first two games were so great. I played them recently and they seemed like crap to me. Fallout 3 was so much better.

 

[Spygon]

Its not a sequel but a new view of an old style game.I prefer f3 because of its dark and bleak moments as not many games make you feel that all that really matters is yourself your the small ball of energy trying to survive in a world that doesnt care anymore.I think this will be what survivors feel and have to deal with in a post apocalytic world.

 

[Henrik Persson]

Everyone keeps saying "it's just not a Fallout game", what exactly MAKES a "true" Fallout game? Asking since I've only played F3 (but I loved it)

here is the biggest rule of a fallout game, if you actually WANTED TO SEE the city not destroyed and feel sad because its all gone, its a bad fallout game. the entire message is "oh well it may be destroyed but fuck the past! we got hookers!". you should NEVER have a grim setting in a fallout game, its all wacky and over the top. there are other rules but i am too lazy to list them.

I thought the grimness was the point of Fallout, and the black humor was just it's way of comic relief. There has to be grimness in Fallout, even the "War, war never changes", THAT'S grim.
So should a Fallout game have/be grim but still have it's (black) humor to provide occasional relief?

But didn't you know that hookers is all you need to make the world less grim?

I agree with you fully, Fallout is supposed to be dark and gritty. Racism, violence, abuse and despair is rampant in the world. The most ridiculous humour in the game is in random encounters, which functions more or less as non-sequiters in a way. The humour found in the cities is generally of a much more grim nature.

 

[Olrod]

Fallout 3 is to Fallout 2 what Final Fantasy X-2 is to Final Fantasy X.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

I've never played the originals because they looked sort of like diablo, and I fucking hated diablo. Fallout 3 on the other hand, is one of my favorite games ever, so I'm pretty confident that I could say I think fallout 3 is way better anyways.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

snip

Your a bit late on the FO3 is a shooter bandwagon....ya ya ya its a nice simple shooter you can explore some and it have decent dailog,ect but tis a wonky shooter with cheap RPG elements....like Bioshok apparently. Sure these 2 games are ok at best... and ok at best is what modern gaming dose..I hate the simplified dumped down approach to game design these days.....

Yeah, funny thing is I never once said it was a shooter.

I suggest you read my OP again.